Germany, a Paradise for slackers ?

[Jayro]

I live off health benefits.
But trust me, I'd rather work then almost being unable to pay bills from the measly benefits I get.
"free money"? oh hell no, no employer will take me due to others being more able bodied and I'm mostly in a constant pain due to it.

fibromyalgia?

 

[Youkai]

If Internet forums existed in the 30s, I suppose we would have seen a lot of people writing things like : "they don't work and they have more money than me". That is utter shit, it can't be real. You have a bad job, paying shit, and what do you do ? you're searching for a better job ? you're getting angry at the people employing you because you can't get a raise ? No, you take it on someone else, spreading false rumors. I live in France, there were rumors that migrants would have a free flat and 3000€ per month. They do the same to oppose private and public sector. and then the extreme rises, don't play that game. Question yourself. If you think your goal is to earn more money, do something to earn more money.

Well I never said the refugees are at fault and I never sayed that everyone who is getting this help is automatically a slacker (even if it might have sounded like this)
Of course there are people who need it and even people who might "deserve" it (if you can call it that) because they worked a long time and just lost their job or whatever.

Still there are way to many people abusing the system ... there are even some "famous" slacker who went to TV and had their life documented showing other people how to abuse the system as much as possible.

Here is an explanation in English about Hartz4/ALG2 https://www3.arbeitsagentur.de/web/...il/index.htm?dfContentId=L6019022DSTBAI485759

Of course there are lots of restrictions but if you use just a little time in learning about this stuff you can abuse it so easily -.-V
Like as an example you are not allowed to have lots of savings so what do they do ? give the money to their parents or not married partner or whatever ...
another thing, you are not allowed to have your own house (i think you are allowed to have a small one or a flat? not entirely sure) so either you sell it which brings you money you need to get away to get Hartz4 or again you give it to someone else and if its not to big you can rent your own flat and even earn more money with this (doubt that there are lots of people doing it but than again I doubt noone is doing it)
Or if they want a new washing maschine the old one just needs to break somehow or "vanish" ... there is some work to do to get a new one but you usually get it if its needed.

They should just give out vouchers for whatever and it would be much better ... there are a lot of organisations who collect money to give children from Hartz4 Parents something to eat as their parents use the money for cigarets and alcohol instead for their children. Every calculation you can find online or make yourself or seen in TV shows that it is possible to live a propper life..

 

[DinohScene]

fibromyalgia?

Close but nope.

 

[kumikochan]

Well I never said the refugees are at fault and I never sayed that everyone who is getting this help is automatically a slacker (even if it might have sounded like this)
Of course there are people who need it and even people who might "deserve" it (if you can call it that) because they worked a long time and just lost their job or whatever.

Still there are way to many people abusing the system ... there are even some "famous" slacker who went to TV and had their life documented showing other people how to abuse the system as much as possible.

Here is an explanation in English about Hartz4/ALG2 https://www3.arbeitsagentur.de/web/...il/index.htm?dfContentId=L6019022DSTBAI485759

Of course there are lots of restrictions but if you use just a little time in learning about this stuff you can abuse it so easily -.-V
Like as an example you are not allowed to have lots of savings so what do they do ? give the money to their parents or not married partner or whatever ...
another thing, you are not allowed to have your own house (i think you are allowed to have a small one or a flat? not entirely sure) so either you sell it which brings you money you need to get away to get Hartz4 or again you give it to someone else and if its not to big you can rent your own flat and even earn more money with this (doubt that there are lots of people doing it but than again I doubt noone is doing it)
Or if they want a new washing maschine the old one just needs to break somehow or "vanish" ... there is some work to do to get a new one but you usually get it if its needed.

They should just give out vouchers for whatever and it would be much better ... there are a lot of organisations who collect money to give children from Hartz4 Parents something to eat as their parents use the money for cigarets and alcohol instead for their children. Every calculation you can find online or make yourself or seen in TV shows that it is possible to live a propper life..

and by doing that you create more bad apples then good apples and by doing that you create a system wich will cost a lot more due to rising crimes, poverty, difference between poor and rich etc. You have to look at it future wise and by doing all of that and changing the system will cost a lot more then you're paying now. I rather have those couple of people abusing the system that cost a bit of money then all that other shit that's gonna cost more money from your pocket because this is sustainable and something else isn't and you see that in other non european countries And if it was so bad then you wouldn't have all those points i brought up in previous comments. Look how Europe was before world war 2 happened. You had a different system back then and believe me it wasn't good

 

[DinohScene]

and by doing that you create more bad apples then good apples and by doing that you create a system wich will cost a lot more due to rising crimes, poverty, difference between poor and rich etc. You have to look at it future wise and by doing all of that and changing the system will cost a lot more then you're paying now. I rather have those couple of people abusing the system that cost a bit of money then all that other shit that's gonna cost more money from your pocket because this is sustainable and something else isn't and you see that in other non european countries And if it was so bad then you wouldn't have all those points i brought up in previous comments.

Be glad there isn't a Luxembourgh cartel that is akin to the Sinaloa cartel.
Shit could indeed be far worse.

 

[InsaneNutter]

Most of us live to work, no free time, hobbys or anything else that's left for... and that's not what life should be.

It feels like that when your getting up for work at 6:30 in a morning then it's 6pm at night when you get home. By the time you've had some food your too tired to do anything else.

I'd like the work / life balance to be better, maybe work 4 days a week, have 3 off.

I guess i shouldn't complain too much its probably a lot worse in some countries and a lot better in some too, so could be worse than been in the middle.

 

[Clydefrosch]

Hey there,
I am slightly pissed again as I just read that here in Germany the "Hartz4" money will be highered again and I really feel like its not worth to Work anymore ... would like to know what you think about it.

Imagine, when you life in Germany and do not work you get :
A flat
a complete inventory for their flat (like kitchen if not already there and a TV and everything nowadays even a computer is included ... at least they pay it if you tell them your kid needs it for school ...)
free Healthcare
A cheap ticket for busses
Lots of places offer cheap second hand clothes (sometimes even free) for jobless that get Hartz4
cheap food (lots of places where jobless people can get a whole lot of food for a symbolic 1€)
400€ cash (if its a familiy both get ~380€ each plus money ~180?€ for each kid)

All of this for doing nothing at all ....

Than look at me, I have to get up at 6am 5 days a week and work 8 hours, what do I get ?
1400€ from which I have to pay 500€ for the flat, remaining 900€
~300€ for food and water remaining about 600€
50€ for Internet still remaining 550€
Than I need proper clothes for work some times ~50€ a month plus a bus ticket or a car or whatever to get to work (well I walk or take the bycicle so for me its okay but most have to pay lots of money for this)

from this I still need to pay any extra in health care and I had to buy my stuff at home from my own money,
had to pay ~4000€ when I moved for my new job (for kitchen and everything)




I have to admit some of the free or cheap offers for jobless are not everywhere but at most places and you would have to go there and use these offers (some people who really want to work and just don't get work might be to ashamed to use these) but if you look at what I have written (and my sallary is not the worst) it is hardly worth going working for 8 hours a day
And now they are giving out even more free cash even though its only ~10€ a month it still makes me angry.
One of my "good" friends is such a slacker, he and his wife didn't work for years (he is only 30) and they could have a proper life from all the money even though he was allways like "aww man its not enough money they should give us more" ... than again he never bough at these places that give clothes and food for 1€ as they had enough money for new stuff. Plus allways buying new Computer Games and doing nothing than gaming all day long.

No wonder so many foreigners from Poor Countries want to migrate here :/

then maybe get fired and try to live that life for a few months.
that might change your view of how great it is to live that life

oO sorry to be rude but this sounds a little bit like those people who still say the earth is flat and that the round earth is just brainwashing XD

I can admit there is often at least a tiny little bit truth about some stuff like this ... America and Europe spending way to much money that they don't have in the middle east and so on but yeah ... talking about beeing their slaves is overexaggerating




Don't know where you got that from but as I have been jobless a few month as well (never got Hartz4 because it only starts after 12 month or if you never worked before) and the Job Center only wanted me to give them some kind of report every month but thats it they did not even controll it I could just give them a paper saying that I tried my best at getting a Job and they would have been okay with this ...
Or really go to a doctor and tell him that I can't work ... lots of doctors don't even examine you they just ask "how long" and thats it -.-V

Jesus you got arbeitslosengeld 1, you barely have to do anything to get that. you earned that for having worked a certain ammount of time.
but after a year, you end up in hartz 4 = arbeitslosengeld 2 meaning you have to send out X applications every week/months and have to prove you actually send them. sometimes they want to see the applications and if they feel you didn't do your best (like adding that you're not as flexible due to caring for a child) they might take 10% of your H4 (and if you mention that in multiple applications they will try and punish that multiple times).
you will be invited regularily to visit your jobcenter (which gets hard if you have no car) and missing an appointment leads to cuts to H4 money.

should any application get a positive answer, you have to take that job. no matter how beneath your education and previous job, even if it wouldnt pay for all your bills, even if it would be detrimental to your health (say you've always had a bad knee, you'll still have to do heavy lifting if whoever offers you the job wants you).
and yes, if your jobcenter worker wants you to send an application to a bonebreaking factory job, you have to write a good application, preferably one that doesnt include anything that could hinder your application (like mentioning a bad knee)


also, while its moderately easy to find a doctor that would attest you're sick for a few days (though not half as easy as you make it sound), to get out of having to work or apply for jobs, you'll have to go to one of the jobcenters docs. unless you're coughing blood, dont expect them to say you're unfit for work.

 

[FAST6191]

Interesting.

I hope I one day live to see the end of work. With the rise of automation, excess able to be produced and increasing levels of specialisation I can see it happening in my lifetime. As it stands we are already seeing the start of it with competition among the baseline jobs such that it is more make work/time passing than it might have been a few decades ago. Society and civilisation has always been about increasing excess to allow for other things, and we are probably on the cusp of another big leap. I don't know if some kind of universal income is achievable yet but the numbers are worth continually running, this is also regardless of where you fall on the wanting minimal pain and suffering for your fellow man or law of the jungle still applies spectrum.

There are some fairly perverse incentives at play as well. Several times people seem to want to employ a large staff because it makes them feel important, be it running their own business or just some kind of middle/local management.

I don't know German healthcare that well but it sounds like it could stand to be cheaper, or have more things free on it. Though it is seemingly not as bad as the US was last time I was there (this was pre ACA/Obamacare), or maybe some of eastern Europe (speak to some people dealing in mental health about what they saw as various countries there joined the travel and work areas).

On the flip side I occasionally speak to people in high flying finance type jobs. They tell me they work many many hours a week, but get compensated handsomely. I ask why not work less but get paid similar amounts to what many others happily and comfortably live life on. A few restructured to allow that (a lot of said places have a model to allow those with kids to still do for them, time is time in the end) but most look at me like I am speaking gibberish, I typically return the favour.

Or if you prefer consider what it is that makes you value work as you do. It mostly seems to be tradition. Said tradition might also frown on you being unmarried, childless, not doing the religion bit, not owning property, not having provisions for the future. Given that tradition has been told in various degrees to go fuck itself for each of those on said list I have to wonder if work for work's sake is not next up on the block.

A lot of America's poor is extremely fat. It's very ironic.

Were it still 1800 and we all mostly grew our own food then yeah I could find a statement of "we live in a time where even the poorest in society can afford to be fat" to have something good to say. However it is so much cheaper to eat sugar, fat and salt laden processed crap in the modern US. I eat healthily because it is cheap to do so and makes me feel good but when I go visit the US I have to work at that. I am not sure what I want to believe on it but when people tell me those in poor areas also lack access to fresh fruit and veg I can believe it -- more anecdotal than not but we were fixing someone's truck in a poorer neighbourhood and were hungry, I toddled off to the shop to buy some grapes or something like I might do in Europe and had to return with sugar, plastic wrapped meat or meat heated under a lightbulb, that was just a corner shop though but we stopped by a local bigger shop and it was not much better. I might also wonder what schools are doing as far as teaching nutrition as well, or indeed not teaching such things.

 

[Youkai]

then maybe get fired and try to live that life for a few months.
that might change your view of how great it is to live that life

Jesus you got arbeitslosengeld 1, you barely have to do anything to get that. you earned that for having worked a certain ammount of time.
but after a year, you end up in hartz 4 = arbeitslosengeld 2 meaning you have to send out X applications every week/months and have to prove you actually send them. sometimes they want to see the applications and if they feel you didn't do your best (like adding that you're not as flexible due to caring for a child) they might take 10% of your H4 (and if you mention that in multiple applications they will try and punish that multiple times).
you will be invited regularily to visit your jobcenter (which gets hard if you have no car) and missing an appointment leads to cuts to H4 money.

should any application get a positive answer, you have to take that job. no matter how beneath your education and previous job, even if it wouldnt pay for all your bills, even if it would be detrimental to your health (say you've always had a bad knee, you'll still have to do heavy lifting if whoever offers you the job wants you).
and yes, if your jobcenter worker wants you to send an application to a bonebreaking factory job, you have to write a good application, preferably one that doesnt include anything that could hinder your application (like mentioning a bad knee)

also, while its moderately easy to find a doctor that would attest you're sick for a few days (though not half as easy as you make it sound), to get out of having to work or apply for jobs, you'll have to go to one of the jobcenters docs. unless you're coughing blood, dont expect them to say you're unfit for work.

I guess you really believe that Humans are good people do you ?

There are lots of ways not to get a job if you don't want to and the do not controll you as much as you think they do
How else can you explain people like that one friend of mine who only write an application once every few weeks and doesn't get into trouble with this ?

Of course I never got Hartz4 / ALG2 so I haven't experienced it myself and can only say what I see in tv read in the news and get told by my friend (his brother gets Hartz4 as well -.-V its shameful for their parents) even if you need to write applications every now and then you could send out "bad" ones or have some stuff missing or wrong or whatever and if they still invite you for test working you come late or bring an paper from the doc saying your are ill or whatever.

And yes its easy to get this from many doctors ... my Mother pretended to be ill for many month untill she finaly got her pension with an age of only 40 years ! now she might really be ill but thats because of all the drugs and alcohol and cigarets and whatever she took -.-V still you can make most doctors believe sooner or later even if they can't find anything.
And my former doctor who barely let my grandparents and other people I know die because he never really looked at them gave you whatever medicine you wanted and usually only asked most people "how long you want to stay at home?" ... while I usually told him "as long as you think is required" I once just said "3 weeks" and say what ? 3 weeks extra holliday because my head hurt and I didn't want to go to work that one day like this ...

 

[choupette]

I live off health benefits.
But trust me, I'd rather work then almost being unable to pay bills from the measly benefits I get.
"free money"? oh hell no, no employer will take me due to others being more able bodied and I'm mostly in a constant pain due to it.

That's what I am about. I'm happy to pay taxes for people in this kind of situation. As I'll be happy to be helped if I ever have the bad luck of suffering from something like this.
I visited usa this summer, it's a great country, people are really nice I have alot of good things to say about it (in Seattle at least ^^'). But it's a country where you have to pray everyday to have a good health.

 

[FAST6191]

"what I see in tv read in the news and get told by my friend (his brother gets Hartz4 as well -.-V its shameful for their parents"

Have you seen how awful and prone to clickbait/sensationalism TV news and papers are these days? Likewise if there is shame involved it can colour what they think. I am not amazingly familiar with German tabloids but there are enough people covering their failings that I know it not to be a utopia free from such things.

"now she might really be ill but thats because of all the drugs and alcohol and cigarets and whatever she took"
Self inflicted damage may warrant a course of treatment afterwards but it tends to be frowned upon to only give medical care to those that suffered accidents or unfortunate genetics. By similar token if the end result is she is unfit for work then what is gained by leaving her to starve or die of exposure?

 

[sarkwalvein]

I think most people that actually leech off the state here in Germany are locals, not immigrants.
You could also add some refugees to that, probably (where probably means yes).

I've ever considered the Hartz4 the subsidy for terminal alcoholism, I don't know if it helps it or make it worse, but oh hell it supports that lifestyle so much.

At least I want to think that it makes life safer for everybody else, as at least these people are not in urgent need of money and therefore they don't need to come after the woking citizen and rob/fuck him up. Wishful thinking, perhaps.

Sometime, it may be that you require Hartz4 support, but that itself should be so ashaming that you should work your way out ASAP, of course that is so only in my mind perhaps, I've met some blatant young Germans that get Hartz4, don't seem to have any plan to stop getting it, and secretly they actually work to earn more (but never would they stop leeching the state).

What can I say? I have mixed feelings about it.
On the one hand I believe it is a required type of support, on the other hand it being abused makes me sad, and still I think that even abused it is better for it to be there.

That said, shit it is too little money, how could they settle for that instead of just getting their stuff together a little?

 

[Taffy]

Not to derail the topic, but this is "The German Way" as a friend of mine said...

damn germans have it lucky.

That being said, as nice as an easy life is, what you described isn't really my definition of "easy".

 

[Nightwish]

Oh, and yeah, it's primarily banking and lending, or lack of, that causes the rise and fall of nations.

Yeah, no, that's not how a fiat currency works for a sovereign state that gets to define the value of the currency. The US has plenty of better policies to make than to worry about the deficit and the debt.


On topic
Yes, there are people who abuse such systems, it's true. However, it's pretty clear that most people on them cannot and will not have a chance at a good and productive life without a brace in a time of need, but let's also not forget the swaths of unemployables created by neoliberalism that, apparently, people would rather see beg on the street.
And yet, compared to the amount of tax evasion and corporate welfare going around, or how stupid and wasteful supply side economics is, this is what people are manipulated to worry about to think that matters. I'm sorry, it doesn't, it's not your fellow precariat who is bringing you down.

 

[Julizi]

Social benefits and the payments of health insurances were dramatically shortened by Gerhard Schröder in 2003. Obviously, he got rewarded with a motion of no confidence and Merkel's chancellorship.
And if you just look at the results of the last election where his party got 20.5%, people obviously do not care about raising wages or ban time limited employment contracts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Deleted member 408979]

Hey there,
I am slightly pissed again as I just read that here in Germany the "Hartz4" money will be highered again and I really feel like its not worth to Work anymore ... would like to know what you think about it.

Imagine, when you life in Germany and do not work you get :
A flat
a complete inventory for their flat (like kitchen if not already there and a TV and everything nowadays even a computer is included ... at least they pay it if you tell them your kid needs it for school ...)
free Healthcare
A cheap ticket for busses
Lots of places offer cheap second hand clothes (sometimes even free) for jobless that get Hartz4
cheap food (lots of places where jobless people can get a whole lot of food for a symbolic 1€)
400€ cash (if its a familiy both get ~380€ each plus money ~180?€ for each kid)

All of this for doing nothing at all ....

Than look at me, I have to get up at 6am 5 days a week and work 8 hours, what do I get ?
1400€ from which I have to pay 500€ for the flat, remaining 900€
~300€ for food and water remaining about 600€
50€ for Internet still remaining 550€
Than I need proper clothes for work some times ~50€ a month plus a bus ticket or a car or whatever to get to work (well I walk or take the bycicle so for me its okay but most have to pay lots of money for this)

from this I still need to pay any extra in health care and I had to buy my stuff at home from my own money,
had to pay ~4000€ when I moved for my new job (for kitchen and everything)




I have to admit some of the free or cheap offers for jobless are not everywhere but at most places and you would have to go there and use these offers (some people who really want to work and just don't get work might be to ashamed to use these) but if you look at what I have written (and my sallary is not the worst) it is hardly worth going working for 8 hours a day
And now they are giving out even more free cash even though its only ~10€ a month it still makes me angry.
One of my "good" friends is such a slacker, he and his wife didn't work for years (he is only 30) and they could have a proper life from all the money even though he was allways like "aww man its not enough money they should give us more" ... than again he never bough at these places that give clothes and food for 1€ as they had enough money for new stuff. Plus allways buying new Computer Games and doing nothing than gaming all day long.

No wonder so many foreigners from Poor Countries want to migrate here :/

Mate, I ain't from germany but I bet that it's a low status symbol to only live with what the government gives you. ALso, at least your country gives you money for just existing, all mexico does it take it away.

 

[Nightwish]

I've met some blatant young Germans that get Hartz4, don't seem to have any plan to stop getting it, and secretly they actually work to earn more (but never would they stop leeching the state).

If it's the same as in other countries, and it is because Germany made the economic rules for the eurozone, the alternative is getting a low paying job every few months until the employers consider you too old. There's a 20% un/underemployment gap on average that is a major drain on EU's productivity that isn't going away anytime soon and will have dramatic consequences. And yet, Deutsche Bank is still broke and we'll have to keep propping it up.

 

[leon315]

this is what happened when u guys have voted Merkel ja?? joke aside german's gov can afford this unlike italian's, when u can'T pay a flat fees, u get literally kick out from where you live, and i love it.

I have a humble job too, and parasites have NO rights living on taxpayers' shoulder!!

 

[naddel81]

One problem in good old Germany is: Doing hard work does not always pay out.
I studied three years longer than most of my school mates (=Abitur) which is nowadays somewhat the minimum grade you have to have to become a barber in Germany.
Then I did two university degrees which took me additional 4 years. Those 7 years without a dime of income is what my former school mates have already earned money. Of course not too much in their first three years of learning in a job. But now you would assume I am earning twice as much as them? To be honest: no!
I get 2400€ which is only slightly more than most of my school mates get. But they did not have to wait 7 years to make money.
Will I ever catch up to their 7 year financial advantage? not in my life, I suppose. Obviously not until I am 60 years old.
If I learned two things in my short life until now then it is:
1. you do not need hard work or a good education (it helps), you need luck and good connections!
2. working hard and working in a social environment might be good for your karma, but it is definitely not good for your bank account!

 

[Nightwish]

relevant:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=37429