London Terror Attack(s)

[Abu_Senpai]

Not an argument.

Forgive me brother, i was just highlighting to the lurkers of this thread, your level of sanity. Hope you dont mind

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

My Beliefs? if your referring to my religion of faith then it is the same as yours(Islam). i am not the best Muslim, like many i have my faults but i i believe if you stick to the 5 pillars, then you will befine. I aint as extreme as our "brother" Haider Raza. Anything else?

I was suspecting you were. I was also asking more about your political views, but i'm gonna go on a limb and guess left?

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Why would Muhammed limit himself?

I wrote: Seeking approval from his wives.

That wouldn't make sense seeing as how this verse came long after the wives accepted his roles.

66:1 "O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?"

ouch.

I hope you won't go to hell for saying that what Allah says doesn't make sense.

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

I wrote: Seeking approval from his wives.




66:1 "O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?"

ouch.

I hope you won't go to hell for saying that what Allah says doesn't make sense.

And that's why I said:
" seeing as how this verse came long after the wives accepted his roles."
Nice job misrepresenting me.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

So you didn't just contradict the Quran/Allah?
Explain how.
And what noun does "his" refer to? "His roles"

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

So you didn't just contradict the Quran/Allah?
Explain how.
And what noun does "his" refer to? "His roles"

Because that verse came long before 33:52. By then it was noted that the wives didn't quarrel with Muhammed over his roles. His roles including having sex slaves as they were gifts from foreign nations.
Their issues with his roles were very much in the more early years.

 

[Haloman800]

Remember that Muhammad, founder of Islam, was the first Muslim terrorist

"Bukhari 29:77
I have been made victorious with terror"

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

So according to you 66:1 (wives being jealous, Allah says Muhammad should not listen to them, he can continue to have sex with his slave girl)
came first.
Then much later came 33:52, which allows Muhammad to have more sex slaves.

Before the events of 66:1 he limited himself for the sake of his wives approval, right? So how does it not make sense?

According to this list, Sura 33 came before Sura 66:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surahs_in_the_Quran
Or is verse 52 separate of Sura 33?

 

[Onepunchbruh]

"Bukhari 29:77
I have been made victorious with terror"

No, Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism or coercion.

I’d like to invite you to reword your question.

After looking at the Arabic text, the translation is done completely wrong. The Arabic word is ruebay, which DOES NOT mean terror but AWE. I’ve attached the original Arabic text (see bottom of post) and put a box around two words, which mean ‘helped with awe.’

If you lookup the word Awe in an English dictionary, you will learn that it means:

noun

1. 1. a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder."they gazed in awe at the small mountain of diamonds"

verb

1. 1. inspire with awe."they were both awed by the vastness of the forest"

The real translation of the Hadith is "I've been helped with awe" and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was talking about himself personally not about Islam.

The ruebay used by the Prophet was that of his character, his morals, his spirituality, his promoting the virtues of forgiveness.

You cannot simply take one quote of what he said and base your suppositions on Islam's victory. You need to look at the life of the prophet and see how he behaved with people. He did not terrorize or coerce them into becoming Muslim. The prophet saw Islam spread the most after the treaty of Hudaibiya (Peace between Mecca and Medina) and this treaty was breached by the Meccans. Even after Mecca was conquered, a general amnesty was declared. So Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism.

I urge you to take basic study of Islam under consideration. Here are some resources that are unbiased and will help you formulate a solid understanding. Any library in North America can help you obtain them:

Elementary Study of Islam - Mirza Tahir Ahmad

Islam: A very short introduction - Oxford Press

Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet - Karen Armstrong

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

.....

Translation can be done wrong. Learn arabic & then come back with mistakes. If you can find em.

 

[Haloman800]

No, Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism or coercion.

I'd like to think you're simply ignorant and not trying to intentionally deceive people (Taqiyaa). The correct translation is terrorism. http://www.exmuslim.org/i-have-been-made-victorious-by-terror.html

Here's more violence (this time in the Qur'an itself) "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." Qur'an 9:5

The message is clear; Once Muslims become the majority, your options are convert, or Muslims will kill you.

 

[Onepunchbruh]

.....

Learn rather then being ignorant.

66:1 https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/commentary-on-quran-661-2/
33:52 https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/01/22/surah-3352-restriction-on-prophet-muhammed-p/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

....

Study then you'll know you just misinterpreted verses like (Al-Qaida The ISIS) without knowing background story.

9:5 https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/22/an-historical-examination-of-the-sword-verse-surah-95/

 

[John_Kirky]

@Haider Raza: Oh....ok. I see.... we all forgot to read the additional leaflet that comes bundled with every Quran :-)

Allah may be great, but as an author he is rather shoddy. Never seen a book misunderstood by so many people (in the same way).

Maybe the quran should only be allowed to be published with all explanations and context in the same book?
We here in Germany have something similar: Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is only allowed to be published with a commentary and context.
(In case someones tries to take Hitlers bullshit seriously)
After all both books are written by people who would have been good friends if they lived in the same time :-)

Regards,

Kirky

 

[sarkwalvein]

-snip-

Touché.
You made me laugh with that comment.
This will probably turn into flame, so I shall flee while I can, but your sense of humor, well it is good.

 

[Onepunchbruh]

@Haider Raza: Oh....ok. I see.... we all forgot to read the additional leaflet that comes bundled with every Quran :-)

It's history you ignorant piece of brainless creature. You know what history means right?

CHOP CHOP EDUCATE YOURSELF!

 

[John_Kirky]

Touché.
You made me laugh with that comment.
This will probably turn into flame, so I shall flee while I can, but your sense of humor, well it is good.

And you were quite right about the flame :-)

@Haider Raza: Oh...sorry... I clicked the wrong link obviously... The one I opened when I clicked on your link lead me to a page which contains quite an amount of tafsir (exegesis for the qoran) which is not only context and history, but also opinion and interpretation. These interpretations differ a lot between the muslim sects.
A book that is so open to interpretation is rather dangerous, don't you think? And the book itself claims to be a simple guide...

And by the way: if the the verses must be seen in historic context, that means the book is really outdated and should be put in the history section of the library. Maybe God should write an updated version?

It's history you ignorant piece of brainless creature. You know what history means right?

CHOP CHOP EDUCATE YOURSELF!

Wow...What a fine Riposte. Truly from an educated member of a civilized society.

Regards,
Kirky

 

[Onepunchbruh]

.......

No time for trolls.

(I don't worry about the haters. They are just angry because the truth I speak contradicts the lie they live)

 

[John_Kirky]

@Haider Raza: At least in One point we can agree:

(I don't worry about the haters. They are just angry because the truth I speak contradicts the lie they live)

That is exactly my opinion on that matter :-)

Regards,
Kirky

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

No, Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism or coercion.

I’d like to invite you to reword your question.

After looking at the Arabic text, the translation is done completely wrong. The Arabic word is ruebay, which DOES NOT mean terror but AWE. I’ve attached the original Arabic text (see bottom of post) and put a box around two words, which mean ‘helped with awe.’

If you lookup the word Awe in an English dictionary, you will learn that it means:

noun

1. 1. a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder."they gazed in awe at the small mountain of diamonds"

verb

1. 1. inspire with awe."they were both awed by the vastness of the forest"

The real translation of the Hadith is "I've been helped with awe" and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was talking about himself personally not about Islam.

The ruebay used by the Prophet was that of his character, his morals, his spirituality, his promoting the virtues of forgiveness.

You cannot simply take one quote of what he said and base your suppositions on Islam's victory. You need to look at the life of the prophet and see how he behaved with people. He did not terrorize or coerce them into becoming Muslim. The prophet saw Islam spread the most after the treaty of Hudaibiya (Peace between Mecca and Medina) and this treaty was breached by the Meccans. Even after Mecca was conquered, a general amnesty was declared. So Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism.

I urge you to take basic study of Islam under consideration. Here are some resources that are unbiased and will help you formulate a solid understanding. Any library in North America can help you obtain them:

Elementary Study of Islam - Mirza Tahir Ahmad

Islam: A very short introduction - Oxford Press

Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet - Karen Armstrong

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


Translation can be done wrong. Learn arabic & then come back with mistakes. If you can find em.

So in the Quran Sura 8:12 when it says:
"I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip"

It means awe, as well?
What about the other verses in the Quran that mention the word "l-ru'ba":
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rEb#(8:12:16)

 

[TheDarkGreninja]

So according to you 66:1 (wives being jealous, Allah says Muhammad should not listen to them, he can continue to have sex with his slave girl)
came first.
Then much later came 33:52, which allows Muhammad to have more sex slaves.

Before the events of 66:1 he limited himself for the sake of his wives approval, right? So how does it not make sense?

According to this list, Sura 33 came before Sura 66:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surahs_in_the_Quran
Or is verse 52 separate of Sura 33?

Oh, thought you were discussing the verse within surah 4, my apologies.

33:52 doesn't let him have more slaves, it prohibits him!

As for 66, elaborate.

Bukhari 29:77

erm what?
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: A woman from the tribe of Juhaina came to the Prophet and said, "My mother had vowed to perform Hajj but she died before performing it. May I perform Hajj on my mother's behalf?" The Prophet replied, "Perform Hajj on her behalf. Had there been a debt on your mother, would you have paid it or not? So, pay Allah's debt as He has more right to be paid."

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I'd like to think you're simply ignorant and not trying to intentionally deceive people (Taqiyaa). The correct translation is terrorism. http://www.exmuslim.org/i-have-been-made-victorious-by-terror.html

Here's more violence (this time in the Qur'an itself) "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." Qur'an 9:5

The message is clear; Once Muslims become the majority, your options are convert, or Muslims will kill you.

Nice job pulling things out of context:
9:1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
9:2 So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
9:3 And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away – then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
9:4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:8 How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
9:9 They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.
9:10 They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
9:11 But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun the attack upon you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
9:14 Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people.

So based on this, you're saying we shouldn't fight people who break treaties?

Anyway, nice job using biased articles, show's a real level of critical thinking there.

 

[Onepunchbruh]

.......

Quran 8:12 – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

And

Quran 8:15 – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”

The historical context for the above passages (Quran 8:12 and 8:15) is that it was revealed at the battle of Badr. A battle in which the disbelievers (Pagans) of Makkah travelled 100s of miles to kill Muslims in Madinah. The pagans had 1000 soldiers, while the Muslims all they could gather to fight back in defence, had only 300 soldiers. Even though Prophet Muhammad (p) had left Makkah to find peace for its community without being persecuted, oppressed, they once again were trying to terrorize the Muslim community. Let’s read from Q. 8:9 to 8:19,

8:9 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, “Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another.”
8:10 And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah . Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
8:11 [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”
8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger – indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
8:14 “That [is yours], so taste it.” And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.
8:15 O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].
8:16 And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah , and his refuge is Hell – and wretched is the destination.
8:17 And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
8:18 That [is so], and [also] that Allah will weaken the plot of the disbelievers.
8:19 If you [disbelievers] seek the victory – the defeat has come to you. And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.

When we read the verses before and after, we get a clear picture that this was a battle. The killing that is mentioned in Q. 8:12 is on the battlefield, which took place 1400 years ago. When we read Q. 8:17 it says, that it was not Muhammed (or his companions) who killed the enemy, but it was Him (God) who had done so. Furthermore, Q 8:19 offers peace to the enemy, if the enemy desist from hostilities against Muslims,

8:19 If you [disbelievers] seek the victory – the defeat has come to you. And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.

When we get to read the verses in its context, does it promote the killing of innocents? The answer is NO! Even when Muslims were being persecuted by the mighty army of Quraish, God Almighty encouraged Muslims to offer peace if they, the enemy stopped hostilities against them (Muslims).

Commentaries

The Holy Quran Arabic Text with English Translation, Commentary and comprehensive Introduction – Maulana Muhammad Ali

“19a It is related that when the Quraish left Makkah to attack the Muslims, they held on to their curtains of the Ka’bah and prayed thus; ‘O Allah, assist the best of the two forces and the most rightly directed of the two parties and the most honoured of the two groups and the most excellent of the two religions’. Others say that Abu Jahl prayed in the field of battle, saying: ‘O Allah, whoever of us is the greater cutter of the ties of relationship and more wicked, destroy him tomorrow morning’ (Rz).” [1]