What is your opinion on what is happening in Spain and Catalonia?

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by Tumoche, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    I don't know the most about it, though I did read up a while back as many contrasted it with similar efforts in Scotland.

    Some more merit than some other independence movements elsewhere but far less than others. I don't really know what the movement hopes to accomplish and where they might find themselves should it happen, though I guess that is par for the course for politics and if you are playing hardball you can't really show it all (you say our key allies are X,Y and Z, while you are still a theoretical movement X, Y and Z are approached by those you seek independence from and are made offers they can't refuse, your potential allies then distance themselves and it all falters). There are times where separatist movements make sense to me but in the richer parts of Europe it really doesn't.

    This stuff mentioned in the article. I know it is still well within living memory when that wanker Franco got kicked in the bollocks and the Spanish establishment thus does not have the most experience in the game of "how to country" but that is not how you quell rebellious outer provinces for the long term. That said if it is followed up by tax incentives for the youth from elsewhere (possibly masked as building something to have work for the people of the region) to move there it could work.

    "we"
    An interesting choice of word as it seemingly means you have taken a position. Going back to the "more merit" thing some have wondered how much support is really there for it and if it is not just a very vocal minority. At the same time casting your opponents as a vocal minority is a time tested tactic so I am a bit wary of that.
     
  2. DinohScene

    DinohScene Temp's most beloved homosexual

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    I don't vote so I really couldn't care less.

    Good luck Catalonia if you get your independence.
    Good luck if you don't.
     
  3. sarkwalvein

    sarkwalvein More coffee, please!

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    I would say you're not affected much, and so you couldn't care less.
    But people from others communities in Spain also wouldn't vote, yet they would care quite a bit.
    I mean, it is not the fact that you don't vote what makes you not care.
    E.g. sure people in England cared quite a lot about the separatist votes in Scotland, as it would impact the UK (and England) as a whole.
     
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  4. DinohScene

    DinohScene Temp's most beloved homosexual

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    Even if it happens right on me doorstep, I really couldn't care less ;p

    Edit: congrats on getting post 7588000
     
  5. Patxinco

    Patxinco Riding a Shooting Star

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    Wow, nice one, i'm from catalonia, and i'mm not independent, so i can give you my point of view, if you want to read it, of course.

    I want to make it short, but i don't think that gonna happen, so forgive me...

    For me, all this started around 2007, when the new Estatut of Catalonia, when Spanish president, Jose luis Rodriguez Zapatero, promised that this new Estatut will be approved in the Spanish Parlament without touching a single coma.
    I don't think i have to tell you that it was a HUGE lie...
    Well then, options given were: accept what they were giving us (bad idea IMO), or, keep fighting at that time.
    Well, the first idea was approved thanks to ALL political forces (REMEBER THIS) besides ERC and PP, first because it was far too less that we deserved, the others on the contrary, too much. I voted NO with ERC, so i wanted to fight then.
    FLASH FORWARD
    There's a huge manifestation on 9/11/2010-12 (can't remember exact year, sorry) proclaming independence, and at that moment, always IMO, CiU, an historical politic group on the right side of the table (Artur Mas leader, Jordi Pujol foundator) says: "independence is cool now, we can get some votes from this!!" "Who we know who's been on this since ever and make him our allies?"
    You guess it, ERC, a political group who has been always on the left side of the table, always wanting independence.
    So, here it's where it starts the insane, both groups start to work together to bring us independence, so they make a referendum and they make us answer the following question: "Do you want Catalonia to be an independent country?" and if the answer was yes, another one "In a republic type of?"
    Yes won, of course, but independent political groups only counted the first answer, which doesn't makes sense with the referendum they are doing now.
    In the meantime, CiU break apart and begins Convergencia (now called PDECAT) and Unió, who, sadly, had a "different" point of view of the situation.
    New elections to the catalonian government are being called before that, and Convergencia+ERC fuses themselves into JxSI (together4yes) and with the CUP (a newborn catalonian independent radicals, who i still fail to see were they have come from...) they "win" with the 51% of the votes.
    And now is were the best part begins, always IMO.
    CUP is pressing JxSI, with president Puigdemont, to celebrate a referendum, were we, not independents, are just to make the votation wider, let me explain:
    -Independence will be declared if the Yes wins (so far, correct, understandble)
    -There's NO participation minimum, lets say, if 20% of the called population goes to vote, and 15% of it says Yes, we're independent (that means i'm bounded to be independent regardles of the % of people who wants another thing, but they are not reflected in the referendum question?)
    And last one, and probably the one i'm more scared of:
    -If, the referendum is done, regardles of the prohibitions, who can TRULY assure the neutrality of the votation?
    Let me explain, our election process is to have 5 persons in each table for neutrality purposes, choosen random, so anyone will take serious care of making a "MISTAKE" and change a single vote.
    With the things like they are heading, the most probable situation is that, this 5 persons end being volunteers, but were is the problem, almost/if not all will be pro-independent, so, even by a small chance there's the posibility of the referendum being manipulated by the independent.
    That's why, the central government has stopped this referendum via courts, because there's 0 guarantees of being impartial.
    For ending, let me say that i want, as anyone in the country, independent or not, be able to be listened, and i have, and always will have, my own right to vote, noone can take me that.
    But i want to play with the same rules as the other side of the table, and not to be kicked of it by them, and so, i choose to not vote.

    And this doesn't mean i'm at the Spanish Government side, they are NOT handling the situation right, but that's another thing that if someone is willing to read, i can explain tomorrow.
    2am here, i wanna sleep...
     
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  6. Pleng

    Pleng GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    I think most people fight for separatism (leave the EU, break with the UK, Texas ForEver, "Solar System? No thanks!", whatever) because it prevents them having to think of something genuinely useful to do with their lives.

    Seriously the amount of time and money wasted, and the years of progress that are/would be set back when these things happen, is absolutely absurd.
     
  7. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    While I don't necessarily disagree I tend to think it because of monkey brains only being able to know so many people and that getting filled up by people close to home.





    It could cut the other way though and the politicos could be... if not self serving (though they are always that) then local area that they can see serving (most people stopping their visualisation around about the horizon). Of course I maintain that nobody in Europe these days has probably had their lives harmed in any great way by being part of said greater grouping. Looking at something like the split of Pakistan and Bangladesh/East Pakistan when that happened that seemed like a good path to go down.

    That said much like the bit of my brain which says take that stick of butter, wrap one of those doughnuts around it and go to town it is a bit of the brain worth fighting.

    Curious, while I have no idea as to the status of impartiality here (though something like this being horribly corrupt would hardly be unprecedented) there are options for outside observers (the UN often providing such a service).
    The specifics of any corruption and fraud I can leave for another day though and now would want to consider what money is funding the separatist movement for there is always money underpinning this.
    It is a coastal region, the port in Barcelona is a good one, fair amount of tourist trade, I don't know what major natural resources it has that the central government might have blocked from being exploited, similarly I am not sure what industry might have been blocked, I can't see a good way to becoming either a financial haven or a financial powerhouse but if your numbers are in the billions then chucking a couple of million at some separatists and inventing an oppression story or stirring up feelings could be a sound investment. Can't see from a surface reading so will have to go deeper and the dog needs a walk so that will have to be another time.
     
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  8. Patxinco

    Patxinco Riding a Shooting Star

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    Well, i'm back xD
    I'm gonna try to explain spanish Government position the way i see it right now.
    First things first: right now, spanish goverment is being controlled by PP, a traditionally right side political group in spain, in minority, that means they don't have control over 51% of the parlament, they must get allies to take anything forward.
    PP is being for the past years pursued for corruption in different areas, and lots of it's comrades are being investigated for it.
    This means they are constantly on the news, in a bad way, so here's the thing:
    How can we (PP) avoid being on the news almost all day? Catalonian Idependence.
    With just that, avoiding the dialogue with the catalonian government for all this time, they are achieving 2 things:
    - No more corruption talking (we can keep stealing, yay!! /s)
    - More votes in future elections, as they are, right now, being seen as the "good guys" destroying all the Catalonian government "bad boys" who're "only wanting to break apart SPAIN" <- that's actually the message they are giving population in spain, not lying.

    So, they are getting good things from this conflict, if not, they will have ended it sooner.
    And the other side of the Spanish parlament are like this:
    PSOE: the next big one, on the left side, are being cautious to say barely nothing, so, if the PP fails to handle this, they will be the "only and one" option, but if it succeds, they will only say that the LAW is there for all of us... Except for politics, of course ;), they too have corruption issues going there...

    So this big ones in the spanish parlament (we're talking about 70%) only want that this conflict keep going, so they can keep hiding truth to all of us, that they are stealing like kids in an "employees day off" candy shop.

    But guess what? Catalonian government are doing the same!!! :tpi:
    Just for the records, 2 days ago i saw, in the public catalonian tv, a manifestation pro-independence, who's manifestants were wearing some posters with the following "Vote YES, so we will get no more tax highways" http://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20170531/pelea-puigdemont-albiol-tarifa-unica-peajes-6074934
    No comments.
    So, i hope you guys see my vision of the conflict, and if it were for me, i'll take them all in a room, close the door and they couldn't get out till they make a deal, a good deal that benefites both of the parts.

    I'm a dreamer, maybe, that dialogue is the only and true solution?

    Sorry, and thanks to listen all of this, you guys rock!!
     
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  9. leonmagnus99

    leonmagnus99 GBAtemp Addict

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    eyyh buddy, similar situation from where i am from.

    i live in the northern part of iraq known as the autonomous kurdistan, we are self governing.
    i belive catalonians too ?

    and there is a referndum being held in 4 days from now.
    the people here are overjoyed , i think it comes down to what the people of the region wants.

    if your people do not want to stick to spain they should have the right to vote for an independent state.
    just like us kurds from north of iraq.

    it will not be easy for us kurds, i pray for the better.

    peace to the world.
     
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  10. Viri

    Viri GBAtemp Maniac

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    Eh, I say if they wanna become independent, and the people living there want it, let them. But yea, the country you're trying to gain independence from isn't going to be happy. Just ask Tibet or Hong Kong. At least Taiwan is sort of independent.
     
  11. Thelonewolf88

    Thelonewolf88 GBAtemp Fan

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    Don't vote, Don't care, Don't follow politics.
     
  12. Patxinco

    Patxinco Riding a Shooting Star

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    @FAST6191
    Our main financial income is from tourism, even Barcelona is one of the most visited cities in the world.
    We, at last how i see it, don't have big industries in the country, we killed almost all when tourism was the deal, we've been back then good with textil industries, we had lots of, and cork industries, but the ones left are the last ones, mainy used for cava our "Champagne", so we could say we have a good viticulture industry, and a good industry, but again i fail to see more of it.
    We're not famous about our fish industry, tough i'm proud of our "Gambas De Palamos" a type of shrimps only found in Palamos, which i live near of.
    Our region is hydrographic estrategic, as we have the Pyrinees, and the water is almost never a problem, maybe in the last 30 years we had restrictions at summer once or twice.
    We are rich in wind in the northerneast region, wind always flows there, and we got sun too, so we could be provide ourselves enough power to leave and maybe sell, but not enough to live of it.
    We're important in the spanish region because our location is near France, we often say we're the door to Europe.
    As you said, Barcelona port is one of the most transited ports in the world, but again, fail to see the income will surpass the outcome financially.

    As i see it, the main income to the government will be, as always, taxes to the population.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    I want a referendum, the people voice MUST BE always heard.
    But i want one that doesn't play only by the rules of one of the sides.
    This referendum is only made to and for the independents. Others points of views are not being cared at all. And this is not right.
    This is the worst solution ever, politics are always going to try to fuck you, you MUST remember them they cannot, that's the power of the vote.

    Edit:OOPS, sorry for double post!!
     
  13. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    This whole (possibly non existent) mess a governmental propaganda ploy you say... that could stand to reason. Cheaper than funding a war somewhere as well (not that the Spanish military is especially well suited to US style agitation around the world), though with a bigger risk of backfiring. Anyway I was thinking what groups would benefit -- look at something like Afghanistan and all the minerals that can be mined there. Anyone that gets a crack at that will make an absolute fortune. Other times an outside group might get promised a nice zone with no taxes and import duties and whatnot to do business in if they can get the laws passed (in Europe Monaco is probably the most famous of these but Andorra does not do badly either and that is right next door after all). That is what I normally look to but you are right and I should consider the option for being an internal political tool more often.

    Fishing you say... always a good one in these sorts of discussions. If you look at the US they really seem to romanticise farmers (hard working people living by the land and the sweat of their brow when a lot of that could not be further from the truth) and I find a few places in Europe do similar for fishing (Norway, Iceland and such if you want to go north, plenty of others elsewhere). To that end has part of the things flying around been something like "Madrid imposes harsh fishing quotas* on our poor fishermen and makes it hard for them and their families to survive, if we were free we could set proper quotas that allow people to live and be in harmony with nature".
    *possibly replace quotas with quality controls, or for a really good time have both at once.
    A pity I don't speak Spanish though as one of my other favourite things to do in situations like this is look through all the regional/nationalist readings of history that get twisted to say we have basically been one different people for centuries/longer, possibly handwaving the chunk held by France these days and "reconquista? that was a thing what happened". This usually also comes with renewed interest in some kind of local language/dialect that people maybe speak to their rural living grandparents in but everybody else understands and uses the main one in the land (in this case basic continental, as opposed to those used in South America, Spanish) for everyday purposes.

    Door to Europe? Possible but there are others that would. Size wise the port is also third in Spain (Valencia and Algeciras, also both on the med each do over double the containers, I don't know at this point if Barcelona has better deep waters or anything like that for the truly big ships) and somewhat lower in the list in Europe.

    Textiles are not likely to compete against India-Bangladesh-China and whatever other part of Asia wants to rise next, cork (as in the wood used with wine bottles) is tricky as some are not predicting good futures for that (plastic is better and it is not like growing pine where it is quick and easy as these things go), wine wise while I do recognise cava as a powerhouse in that world I do have to say everywhere that can grow some grapes will have a wine industry these days (I was involved in some people wanting to bring Moldovan wine to the wider world last year some time, and I wander around a wine shop these days and loads and loads of places have it that did not before).
     
  14. Elysium420

    Elysium420 Shitposting bastard

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    If Catalonians feel like Spain is a hegemony, they should have the right to choose their own path. Simple as. Not that it will happen any time soon. Spain just can't afford to lose terriory, even if it should in my own eyes.
     
  15. azoreseuropa

    azoreseuropa GBAtemp Guru

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  16. Patxinco

    Patxinco Riding a Shooting Star

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    @FAST6191 As you said, we could be seemingly like Monaco or Andorra, and we have some things that start to seem, nlw that you said it, the new Las Vegas for Europe, check this:
    http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/06/27/inenglish/1340798899_775360.html or Hard Rock Entertainment World.

    The fishing example you said is basically what's happening, but not with any type of industry, Taxes are the thing, we're and that's true, the region who's being paying more taxes per person of all Spain, noone can say contrary.
    Biggest problem i see, is that catalan government fails to let the people know about how their taxes are being used right now, and how are they gonna fix that in an hypotetical Independence.
    As i said before, the highways taxes are unclear, but that's the top of the iceberg...

    I'm skeptical of how are they gonna manage sanitary/schools/security with only the benefits they get from outside wins, i'm more inclined to think that we're gonna pay more, and we're gonna have less, cause i doubt they are gonna stop stealing us.

    But, without the actual income/outcome between spain/catalonia, i cannot really assure it. The only thing i can assure is that there's more people in catalonia working at tourism sector, than in the others.
    If the Catalan government said what are the allies they have (they being telling us they have allies outside, and they are gonna help us with getting inside the eurozone again) i would be more moved to go and vote YES, but there's 0 guarantiees of that being true or not.

    Actually, i would like to know if you guys, outside of this, do you see me as a fascist?

    I'll explain to you, i seem forbidden to talk about my point of view, at job for example is extreme. I work in a campsite, so i see al talk with a LOT of different people at the end of the year. 1 week ago, one client who comes every year, from barcelona, around 50yo, comes with a campsite wifi problem, starts talking to the receptionist in catalan, as they don't know about informatic problems, they usually ask me for help, and so it happens, but i let my guard down and start talking with him in spanish, as my mother language is. First reaction is, "why do you talk in spanish?" (i then change to catalan and excuse myself cause i'm the worker and should have taken consideration of it). 2on react is this "you know that if we win the 1-O you're gonna have to leave?" WAIT, leave WHAT? My country, my home, my family and friends? Not gonna get that thru, even if i'm working. "I can go to Euskadi, i have family there, there's no problem" i answer, and he then tells me "You know Euskadi be next if we win?" Okay, so i must leave my country and my family TWICE? cause of WHAT? So i end saying "Then i'll go to Andalusia, that i have family too. Now let me ask a question, if you lose on 1-O, we're are you gonna go?" Silence was his answer, i fixed the problem and he left, didn't see it the rest of his holidays.

    And sorry, got to go to work, i'll keep later if anyone wants.
     
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  17. sarkwalvein

    sarkwalvein More coffee, please!

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    This is what makes me sad exactly. This stupid lack of consideration, rise of hate and people just turning into PoS to their brothers.
    And the cunningness... What can I say...
     
  18. PabloMK7

    PabloMK7 Red Yoshi! ^ω^

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    Please no, I keep hearing about this on the news EVERY SINGLE DAY. And now, a thread in my favorite gaming forum? I'm just tired of this.

    Anyway... First of all I don't live in Catalonia, so I cannot give an opinion from inside of it, however I live in Valencia, and I can give my opinion from there.
    First of all "you" (from now on, you will refer the Catalan government) say you have enough money to leave the country and be independent. Sure you have, but Valencians as well, and people from Andalucia, etc. But this doesn't mean everybody has to be independent from the rest of the communities, and Catalonia is not special with this. It's funny, you want to be independent, but still want the Mediterranean highway to be payed by the central government, didn't you say you had enough money to be independent, why do I have to pay things to another "country"? You said "Spain is stealing from us", so you do, you are just stealing a piece of culture from the country, which you say the rest of the country don't care, but that's false, at least in my case. You want to be independent? Alright, then leave the rest of the country alone, build your own highways, pay your own projects, have your own football league, but never come again to the central government and ask for any type of financial help, I guess you have enough money to do that. (Sorry if my post sound rude, but I repeat, I'm TIRED of this :angry:).

    This is what bugs me the most. I'm pretty sure most of the non independent people won't want to vote to something illegal, and only the independent people will.
     
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  19. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    First off I would generally say to be a fascist you would have to espouse fascist ideals. So far you have not done that, what you have said seems pretty far from that and nor do I have any particular inkling that you might go. I do however have to say it is a common put down* for people in various political debates, especially in things like this.

    *let me guess the typical exchange there
    [you] I am not sure how they are going to manage public works should they get independence
    [someone else]oh my god you don't believe in freedom
    [you] No I just wanted to see a plan for how it would work if independence is obtained
    [someone else] You don't want us to be free. You must be a fascist and want the government to rule over us. Do you not remember Franco?
    [you]Err no. I just want to know how it would work
    [someone else] I don't talk to fascists. Hey [some other person] he is a fascist and says independence is bad.
    [you]... why do I even open my mouth?

    I share your concerns with how people are going to manage afterwards. In UK English there is a phrase along the lines of "it'll be all right on the night" which is usually taken as shorthand for "we will go ahead and hope it all turns out OK" rather than sitting down and making a plan or something. So much of politics these days seems to go to that phrase, the US president's catchphrase of "you're gonna be so happy with it" or whatever it was being a top example.

    Anyway taxes then. Would would be the breakdown, and more importantly national government breakdown (if it is largely pushed over the top by local taxes then that is rather big problem if people are going to claim being more taxed). Is that area particularly richer? If there is a general 10% higher income than other parts of the country then one might expect to pay a bit more. A bit more abstract but does it help sustain anywhere else? Would it be so bad if say part of things were taken from there to allow those in Andalusia (not an especially rich area if memory serves) to maybe live a slightly better life.
     
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  20. Patxinco

    Patxinco Riding a Shooting Star

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    @PabloMK7 Trust me on this, you're not alone, here's even worst, every single tv channel talks about the same, even musical radios, i'm soo tired i would slap all of them...
    @FAST6191 That's typical conversation nowadays, i seriously wanna stop going out at work or anywhere just to stop talking about this.
    Yeah, it's obvious that Andalusia is less productive for the government as a region in comparation at Catalonia, and yes, they are probably getting some taxes that are not for them, but the Andalusian government fight for it and someway or another they get progress, not the same of our government.

    Having family in Euskadi, region of terrorist movement "ETA", provides me about something to tell you funny: One of my cousins often said of us Catalans that "We've gotten more things by talking little by little, than bombing" in reference at themselves.

    Guess what, we're just shooting our own foots, or so it seems to me ;)