What's your general opinion of Christianity?

[SecureBoot]

It's my favorite. I love it. Goodbye

 

[SG854]

Let's twist this argument around - if such a being existed and was the creator of the universe, why would ANYTHING in the universe exist? It's all so small and (according to your assumption) insignificant in comparison, after all. The assumption here is that big = important. This is a logical fallacy. An emotional argument in a sense - the world is so big and vast and mysterious and intimidating therefore it "must" be more important, more valuable than humanity. But apply the same faulty logic to anything else and you suddenly have basketball players who are "more valuable" than short people and adults that really shouldn't care about the small, frail, ignorant kids. Because they're "less".


And here it is... How is this argument not dead after having been refuted repeatedly for centuries now, I swear.
Do you have the means to board a plane and fly some food to those starving African children? I assume you have or at least it wouldn't took too much effort to save a bit of cash for a ticket. Why don't you then? Are you a hypocrite? Are you using the tragedy of many people less fortunate than you to paint an emotionally charged picture to avoid actually refuting an argument?
Probably not, actually. Still, this is actually the crux of the argument.
This argument is an argument from laziness. "God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, why would we, humans, need to do anything, act properly, help each other, be responsible when He could just snap His fingers and make everything okay, reverse every f*ck-up of ours?" Well, why do parents allow their children to make mistakes and to meet with bad consequences of their actions? Why do they not control their every movement, every action, every relationship? What's that? Freedom? Good job, you've found your answer.
God is not gonna fix everything up with magic, because He doesn't WANT to take our free will away. That is what makes us capable of all the best things, even if at the cost of making us capable of all the worst things.
Besides we're already spoiled enough as it is. He's already delivered salvation for us, meaning even the worst possible result of our stupid actions here in the physical reality - death - is not a dealbreaker as far as eternal happiness goes. In the grand scheme of things, these starving people in Africa may be better off than the most privileged of us video-gaming Internet-using couch potatoes. Sure, we should try to make this world as close to Heaven as possible (aka try to return it to its original state, morality-wise), which includes (or rather almost entirely consists of) helping others, but it's wrong to consider all suffering evil, just like it's wrong to consider all pleasure sinful.

Side note, I'd like to ask you where you got that idea that people suffering and starving and killing each other and all that is "wrong" or "evil". I mean, if there is no Good - as in Goodness with a capital G, a supernatural "measuring stick" - then nothing can really be "more good" or "less good". We can only say a game is like Zelda because Zelda games exist. We can only say a city looks like New York, because there is a place called New York. If by saying "Zelda game" we all imagine our own arbitrary games, the conversation becomes nonsense. I'm not saying that atheists can't be morally outstanding people, wonderful people - but denying the supernatural moral standard renders it pointless. Might as well say that using words starting with a "p" is a virtuous thing to do or that eating bananas is a horribly evil thing to do.



But you're not actually making those assumptions, only saying you do. "Let's say there's a God", you say, "so why is the universe horrible, a statement I believe to be true because people die and that's the end of life, there's nothing after death, no Heaven possible". You ask "why, assuming that God is the creator of the universe, would He care about us, considering there is no god that we would have been made in the image of and therefore be immensely valuable?"


Really? You think the Big Bang "explains" the origins of the universe? Tell me then, how could the Big Bang have happened, if things can't "happen" outside of time and time itself didn't exist before the Big Bang? How could all the mass that now is our universe have been concentrated in one tiny point, if there was no "space" in which a "point" could exist in?
The Big Bang is a scientific theory that holds some water, sure - but believing it explains the origin of the universe (space, time, life, free will, all that) is nothing short of a religious belief. It describes the origin of the universe, that's what science does. It tells us "how", but never "why". Even if we eventually reach a point in time when we'll know everything about how the universe works, we "complete" all science - we'll still be nowhere near finding out "why" all that stuff works, what the purpose behind it was and what's the point. These are questions outside the field of science and the modern belief that science can actually answer those is a very illogical one.

Poverty exsits in Africa because humans are lazy? Is that what your saying? I don’t understand your point.

Why did God invent laziness anyways? Why can’t he just make humans full of energy capable of doing things without getting tired from hard days work.

 

[Ratatattat]

And your proof there is a GOD? I'm not a fool to just blindly believe something because I was told it was true.

I never said I had proof of a GOD. I only said you have no proof there isn't.
You shouldn't blindly believe. But that in itself goes both ways.

 

[SG854]

I never said I had proof of a GOD. I only said you have no proof there isn't.
You shouldn't blindly believe. But that in itself goes both ways.

It’s not up to him to prove that it doesn’t exist. The proof of burden is on you.

We have no proof there is no unicorns, so as far as I’m concerned they aren’t real until there is proof they exist.

 

[Ratatattat]

It’s not up to him to prove that it doesn’t exist. The proof of burden is on you.

We have no proof there is no unicorns, so as far as I’m concerned they aren’t real until there is proof they exist.

You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.

 

[SG854]

You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.

Again he doesn’t have to prove that. Since there is no evidence it doesn’t exist as far as we are concerned. Existence has to be proved not the other way around.

You can prove you love your mother. I do it all the time.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.

And I would add, I would say the Trix Rabbit doesn’t exist. Same with the Keebler elves and snap, crackle and pop.

I can say with full confidence that Pikachu doesn’t exist. Do I need to show proof they don’t exist? How do you do that? How do you prove something doesn’t exist. Does that mean I’m wrong to say the Easter bunny doesn’t exist without proof.

 

[DarkFlare69]

I never said I had proof of a GOD. I only said you have no proof there isn't.
You shouldn't blindly believe. But that in itself goes both ways.

You're right, I don't have any proof. No one has proof of the existance, or lack, of a God.

However I do have inductive reasons to believe there is not a God. We all live in the same universe. If a God is "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority" people should all believe in the same one, or none. Assuming a God exists, there is no way for more than one religion to be the "correct" religion since they all directly disprove each other. Which God is the real one?

If the Christian God exists, then he's an asshole. "Live up to my expectations or you're going to hell for eternity" scares people into being perfect in fear of them going to hell for eternity. Each supposed "God" has different punishments and different views of what's right and wrong. I know people personally who feared every day of their live. For example, one of my old friends is transgender. She lived every day fearing that she'd go to hell for it. So it's either live life being someone who you arent (in her case, keep assigned gender at birth) or live life in fear about what will happen after life. So you're fucked either way. If she was non-religious, there wouldn't be anything to worry about.

Her parents would often blame their mistakes on "Satan". If they dropped something, it was Satan's fault. If something good came their way, it was God's blessing. If they put too much salt into their chicken soup, it was Satan's fault. Like seriously, do I even need to explain the flaws in logic with this? This isn't really an argument but rather just an addition to the last thing I said.

Our bodies are just complex chemical reactions. The universe is infinitely expanding. There is bound to be at least somewhere in the whole universe that something as amazing as life exists. That's here on Earth. Maybe there's somewhere else, but we're only certain of one place. Since the universe is so vast, there is bound to be amazing things. Our existence and the conditions we live in are far from perfect, though. There's weather that isn't perfect, we get hurt very easily, and many other things.

There's no way that there's an afterlife. When we die, the chemicals in our bodies stop interacting the way they did before. There's nothing more to it. It's like carbonation in soda, it fizzes and then it stops after being exposed to air for a while. It doesn't go to hell or heaven, it just ceases to interact the same way it did before. Same with our bodies. Our brains fail to produce the same synapses that allow us to think. Everything in our bodies is linked and that's what causes us to die easily.

I have many other reasons not to believe in a God but these are some arguments that I feel are somewhat strong. I didn't elaborate quite as much as I could have due to lack of time, but it gets the main arguments across.

 

[Ev1l0rd]

Let's twist this argument around - if such a being existed and was the creator of the universe, why would ANYTHING in the universe exist? It's all so small and (according to your assumption) insignificant in comparison, after all. The assumption here is that big = important. This is a logical fallacy. An emotional argument in a sense - the world is so big and vast and mysterious and intimidating therefore it "must" be more important, more valuable than humanity. But apply the same faulty logic to anything else and you suddenly have basketball players who are "more valuable" than short people and adults that really shouldn't care about the small, frail, ignorant kids. Because they're "less".

The fact is that the universe is big. We have observable measurements of the universe being big. Humanity is nothing but a speck. It's not unlikely were alone in the universe. Other creatures are likely to exist given the size of the universe. There are countless other planets, stars, comets and so on. Assuming that a higher being is responsible for the entire universe, why would a higher being be focused on Earth. Answer me that. What would make the earth so special over so many other planets, stars, moons, asteroids and comets.

And here it is... How is this argument not dead after having been refuted repeatedly for centuries now, I swear.
Do you have the means to board a plane and fly some food to those starving African children? I assume you have or at least it wouldn't took too much effort to save a bit of cash for a ticket. Why don't you then? Are you a hypocrite? Are you using the tragedy of many people less fortunate than you to paint an emotionally charged picture to avoid actually refuting an argument?
Probably not, actually. Still, this is actually the crux of the argument.
This argument is an argument from laziness. "God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, why would we, humans, need to do anything, act properly, help each other, be responsible when He could just snap His fingers and make everything okay, reverse every f*ck-up of ours?" Well, why do parents allow their children to make mistakes and to meet with bad consequences of their actions? Why do they not control their every movement, every action, every relationship? What's that? Freedom? Good job, you've found your answer.
God is not gonna fix everything up with magic, because He doesn't WANT to take our free will away. That is what makes us capable of all the best things, even if at the cost of making us capable of all the worst things.
Besides we're already spoiled enough as it is. He's already delivered salvation for us, meaning even the worst possible result of our stupid actions here in the physical reality - death - is not a dealbreaker as far as eternal happiness goes. In the grand scheme of things, these starving people in Africa may be better off than the most privileged of us video-gaming Internet-using couch potatoes. Sure, we should try to make this world as close to Heaven as possible (aka try to return it to its original state, morality-wise), which includes (or rather almost entirely consists of) helping others, but it's wrong to consider all suffering evil, just like it's wrong to consider all pleasure sinful.

I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.

Side note, I'd like to ask you where you got that idea that people suffering and starving and killing each other and all that is "wrong" or "evil". I mean, if there is no Good - as in Goodness with a capital G, a supernatural "measuring stick" - then nothing can really be "more good" or "less good". We can only say a game is like Zelda because Zelda games exist. We can only say a city looks like New York, because there is a place called New York. If by saying "Zelda game" we all imagine our own arbitrary games, the conversation becomes nonsense. I'm not saying that atheists can't be morally outstanding people, wonderful people - but denying the supernatural moral standard renders it pointless. Might as well say that using words starting with a "p" is a virtuous thing to do or that eating bananas is a horribly evil thing to do.

As humans, we should apply our own moral standards to things like this. Standing by while someone else commits a horrible crime is not good if you have the means to prevent them. You indicate that your God operates on a different manner, but as a human you should judge stuff based on your own values.

Your Zelda comparison is fallacious. What if someone who has never played Zelda gets told "this game is like Zelda". They wouldn't have a proper definition of what "this game" has. They would end up playing it and as a result are able to judge said game without saying that it's "like Zelda", since they dont know what a Zelda game is.

If your God works in mysterious ways doesn't mean we don't get to judge said being by our own moral standards. If I kill a man in cold blood and tell their relatives "I assure you, I work in mysterious ways..." do you think they would buy that and suddenly praise me? Let me answer: of course not. A higher being does not escape the judgement we as humans get to apply to it.

But you're not actually making those assumptions, only saying you do. "Let's say there's a God", you say, "so why is the universe horrible, a statement I believe to be true because people die and that's the end of life, there's nothing after death, no Heaven possible". You ask "why, assuming that God is the creator of the universe, would He care about us, considering there is no god that we would have been made in the image of and therefore be immensely valuable?"

This is what we call a train of thought. Although who says we have been made in the image of God? Are monkeys also made in the image of God? Is your God actually a monkey? And since the monkeys came from the mammals, and since all life can be traced back to fish, does that make your God a fish? My point is that you have no proof that your God made you in their image.

Really? You think the Big Bang "explains" the origins of the universe? Tell me then, how could the Big Bang have happened, if things can't "happen" outside of time and time itself didn't exist before the Big Bang? How could all the mass that now is our universe have been concentrated in one tiny point, if there was no "space" in which a "point" could exist in?
The Big Bang is a scientific theory that holds some water, sure - but believing it explains the origin of the universe (space, time, life, free will, all that) is nothing short of a religious belief. It describes the origin of the universe, that's what science does. It tells us "how", but never "why". Even if we eventually reach a point in time when we'll know everything about how the universe works, we "complete" all science - we'll still be nowhere near finding out "why" all that stuff works, what the purpose behind it was and what's the point. These are questions outside the field of science and the modern belief that science can actually answer those is a very illogical one.

Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.

Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.

 

[stomp_442]

You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.

Are you saying there is a god? Yes or no?

 

[Deleted User]

Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.

Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.

Uh, eworm didn't mention anything about proof of God existing. He was pointing out that the Big Bang does not explain everything. He was not providing an answer, he was instead refuting your earlier argument.

I personally think there's not enough evidence either way from a scientific perspective. On the one hand, the odds of everything turning out how it did? The odds of no other alien life anywhere? Astronomical. On the other hand, to jump from that to saying there's a big immortal omniscient being in the sky watching over us? That's quite a leap in logic.

I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.

So why aren't you helping them?

 

[dAVID_]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Don't mind me, just passing by.

 

[AkikoKumagara]

I'm not going to speak of Christianity specifically, but rather religion. I don't hate the concept of religion, though I wish it were used more productively rather than to fuel some kinds of agendas that harm other people... especially in regards to governmental rights and liberties. I think people need to allow for a separation of religion and government, and many are incapable of it.

Religion has killed more people than its saved or helped, and to me, that's ironic. Work needs to be done to make this right or I can't support religion. I do understand why people want to believe in something, I just wish that it could work in a way that's less harmful to people who don't care.

 

[eworm]

The fact is that the universe is big. We have observable measurements of the universe being big. Humanity is nothing but a speck. It's not unlikely were alone in the universe. Other creatures are likely to exist given the size of the universe. There are countless other planets, stars, comets and so on. Assuming that a higher being is responsible for the entire universe, why would a higher being be focused on Earth. Answer me that. What would make the earth so special over so many other planets, stars, moons, asteroids and comets.

Once again, you're making the same assumption. We have no idea what the universe is for. Christianity doesn't claim that humans are the only thing God cares about, the only thing that He had a reason to create. Just that God loves us more than we can imagine and that He wants us to be His children. The rest of the universe may or may not have been created at least partially for our sake, while the rest may have some other purpose. Maybe there is indeed other life in the universe and maybe God loves those beings too. The point is, "humans can't possibly matter if the universe is so much bigger" is not a valid argument. I mean, you may build a brand new house, a villa even, and still love your run-down old shack of the family house more, at least in some way.

I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.

No, they didn't. but the "corrupt governments" you speak of are comprised of people with free will and the people in the first world countries also have the free will to get up, gather the resources and manpower, research the situation and do something about it. Yes, it's more complex of an issue than just sending a bunch of food their way, I get it, but can you honestly say that if the majority of people were willing, actually willing, to do something about the issue - and to sacrifice some money, time and convenience for it - that it wouldn't be a matter of a couple years to see dramatic improvements? Most of the suffering in the world is caused by either the sufferer's or others' choices, usually combining and accumulating into a tragic domino effect.

As humans, we should apply our own moral standards to things like this. Standing by while someone else commits a horrible crime is not good if you have the means to prevent them. You indicate that your God operates on a different manner, but as a human you should judge stuff based on your own values.

But what are "your own moral standards"? If we were to do that, we'd never be able to convict anyone or punish anyone. Your Honor, I believe most of the people in this court do claim murder is wrong, but when I was slaughtering that woman, I was honestly following my moral standards, which claim it was a righteous thing to do, because she was a lesbian or a trump voter or a black person or whatever type of person my own moral standard justifies killing. So I'd like, Your Honor, to receive some state money as prize for my actions.
Hitler was following his own moral standards, believing Jews were a plague to eliminate to help the world. That's an extreme example, but that is exactly what happens when morality is supposedly subjective. It leads to people inventing or misinterpreting the actual morality, then committing some awful things. Nobody does evil whilst believing it's evil. The worst hell comes from the well-intentioned following their own moral values and judgments.

Your Zelda comparison is fallacious. What if someone who has never played Zelda gets told "this game is like Zelda". They wouldn't have a proper definition of what "this game" has. They would end up playing it and as a result are able to judge said game without saying that it's "like Zelda", since they dont know what a Zelda game is.

Wow, that's a nitpick, I never said those were fantastic allegories and that everyone in the world has been to New York. I was making my point about how making a value judgment is a comparison to the universal.
Or do you believe there are people who don't know that "good" means something desirable and valuable as opposed to something undesirable and harmful? Because there aren't. Everybody knows the implications, the value judgment associated with these words. Little kids learn what "don't do it, that's bad" or "good job, champ" means.
But seriously, I think it's

If your God works in mysterious ways doesn't mean we don't get to judge said being by our own moral standards. If I kill a man in cold blood and tell their relatives "I assure you, I work in mysterious ways..." do you think they would buy that and suddenly praise me? Let me answer: of course not. A higher being does not escape the judgement we as humans get to apply to it.

This is exactly the behaviour you encouraged a paragraph ago, an "own moral value" being followed, but I guess now it's bad. Okay.

God can't be subject of a moral judgment, because He's the object of it. You're saying "shouldn't we judge Ultimate Beauty according to our faulty, imperfect standards of beauty? Look at Venus the Milo, it is a beautiful statue, yet it's still so completely different from this Ultimate Beauty. that of course means that the Ultimate Beauty is less pretty, not that Venus the Milo, with all its beauty, still barely approaches the true magnificence that is Beauty". You're saying "let's decide whether Good is good or evil". That's literally insane.

Now of course you're making the most common mistake in the world and mistaking judging a person (or in this case Persons) with judging the act. You say some of God's actions (or lack thereof) are evil. That is at least not a completely lunatic point to make. And the answer of "God works in mysterious ways" that you find so appalling is actually a good point if you think about it. Imagine you're a little kid whose video game console broke down. You demand it's repaired. but then a guy shows up and starts taking it apart further! What the f*ck, he's clearly going to ruin it completely, what an asshole! So you start screaming and throwing a tantrum and you grab the half-undone console from his hands, yelling at him and not listening to his explanations about how he needs to reach the inner parts to understand and fix the problem and that he will make it better afterwards. You just yank it out of his hands and it breaks in half. Now it's beyond repair, or at least it will cost more and take more time. Who's at fault? The mechanic guy who was "breaking it" or you who acted wrong out of ignorance and self-assuredness?

God is the mechanic. Sometimes to reach the problem, the real problem, not the surface level stuff, he needs to take us apart some more. He's a surgeon who can't heal you, without cutting you open. It may hurt, sure, it may result in a long reconvalescence period afterwards when you'll feel even worse than before the surgery - but he's the expert, he knows better. Don't struggle under the surgeons knife. That's why Christianity so underlines the trust in God. He's the ultimate Love and He's the ultimate Wisdom. Those working together will never make a mistake during surgery, it's only the patient who can screw it up with this guy. And screw it up we do.

Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.

Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.

I wonder what you mean by "proof". A tangible, material piece of evidence? An undisputable claim from some authority? An irrefutable logical process leading to such conclusion? Believe me, I can do this dance and do it gladly.

I assume the Original Mover idea you don't find enough? You think Big Bang is that one thing that could happen without a cause (therefore being your creator, I would consider it a slight downgrade from the Christian God, but tastes are tastes) or do you just don't believe that effect requires a cause?

 

[JaapDaniels]

and where is my claim?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Science tells us it doesn't know what was in the first few milliseconds of the big bang because the current laws of physics did not apply. Therefore there is no scientific proof either way of what or why the big bang occurred. Could it have happen naturally. Possibly. Could there have been a creator. Possibly. There is no proof either way.

lsience proved how a planet is born this year as it proved how a star is born.
although it's a mix of dying stars and upcomming stars for planets to come this only means there was more time needed to create the earth... most likely there were a few other planets before.
there are only about 4 still possible planets (that we now know of) where life could excist like our planet, but it's hard to tell, for they're far far away, so the excact detailles about gravety and mixture of gasses, atmosphere, ground is hard to be sure of.
if our planet was the first then there's no way there is creation, nothing means no life, no structure, no nothing... spoken words never created anything.
what could be, is an alien sneezed live on earth, but that's really unlikely.
like already said, magic is hard to prove not excisting, but it's the most unlikely explenation there is.

and even if we are created by some form of being, what does it help to praise such being for you now, if he or she doesn't care about our rotten lives now, why would he bother in an afterlife.
why follow rules based on just a book for something we have no proof of even being real?
yes it's nice to live without murder, rape, and thiefts... it would be the best if we found one partner in life to be happy with for the rest of our lives since it makes the chance of getting a SOA a lot less.
that being said it's not possible for us now, or more then half of the people on this planet were to be given up on.
for the poor it's impossible to accept these rules, they would die a real slow and painfull death.
not looking for new partners in life means we'll cheat on ourselves.
no killings sound great, except, i don't trust all around us for following the same rules of life and i will defend my life if ever needed.

there's no way any religion of today will solve our problems one day, and any religion that doesn't has history from the beginning on is fake.

even if all the world would se mohammed as the profet, then still we'd fight for the detailles in life make it impossible to be and function excact the same, then we still would fight for money, water and food.
then comes sience it always will and proof there's something missing in an old religion there had to be for it's not complete covering our history, and bang there's a new world war.

God can't ever give us world peace even if he's allmighty.
a world where there's no death is not heaven it's hell, for the problems with food, work, water, and so, and so.
a world created by another life is a problem adding to the problem of our history, it's not solving one.

 

[Ratatattat]

lsience proved how a planet is born this year as it proved how a star is born.
although it's a mix of dying stars and upcomming stars for planets to come this only means there was more time needed to create the earth... most likely there were a few other planets before.
there are only about 4 still possible planets (that we now know of) where life could excist like our planet, but it's hard to tell, for they're far far away, so the excact detailles about gravety and mixture of gasses, atmosphere, ground is hard to be sure of.
if our planet was the first then there's no way there is creation, nothing means no life, no structure, no nothing... spoken words never created anything.
what could be, is an alien sneezed live on earth, but that's really unlikely.
like already said, magic is hard to prove not excisting, but it's the most unlikely explenation there is.

and even if we are created by some form of being, what does it help to praise such being for you now, if he or she doesn't care about our rotten lives now, why would he bother in an afterlife.
why follow rules based on just a book for something we have no proof of even being real?
yes it's nice to live without murder, rape, and thiefts... it would be the best if we found one partner in life to be happy with for the rest of our lives since it makes the chance of getting a SOA a lot less.
that being said it's not possible for us now, or more then half of the people on this planet were to be given up on.
for the poor it's impossible to accept these rules, they would die a real slow and painfull death.
not looking for new partners in life means we'll cheat on ourselves.
no killings sound great, except, i don't trust all around us for following the same rules of life and i will defend my life if ever needed.

there's no way any religion of today will solve our problems one day, and any religion that doesn't has history from the beginning on is fake.

even if all the world would se mohammed as the profet, then still we'd fight for the detailles in life make it impossible to be and function excact the same, then we still would fight for money, water and food.
then comes sience it always will and proof there's something missing in an old religion there had to be for it's not complete covering our history, and bang there's a new world war.

God can't ever give us world peace even if he's allmighty.
a world where there's no death is not heaven it's hell, for the problems with food, work, water, and so, and so.
a world created by another life is a problem adding to the problem of our history, it's not solving one.

Mankind is responsible for the condition of the world we live in.

When someone states there is "NO GOD" its their burden of proof to validate that statement, otherwise say "I don't think there is a GOD" which diverts a factual statement to an opinion. You just don't get off the hook that easily by saying I don't have to prove it, not if your stating a fact.

 

[Lucifer666]

I'm just really secular about the whole thing. I don't care to discuss religion. I understand that people are passionate about it (Christianity or any other religion), and I am respectful of that as long as they are respectful of others who might not subscribe to the same faith. Sadly that is a rarity. The whole discourse surrounding it is a can of worms I prefer to leave nice and sealed.

EDIT: FFS I always get a good chuckle when I see that I've posted on a thread like this on the front page, given my username and all. It doesn't mean anything; I just genuinely liked the sound of the word "Lucifer", but it was taken already so the supervisor who was changing my name slapped 666 onto the end.

 

[Ratatattat]

I'm not going to speak of Christianity specifically, but rather religion. I don't hate the concept of religion, though I wish it were used more productively rather than to fuel some kinds of agendas that harm other people... especially in regards to governmental rights and liberties. I think people need to allow for a separation of religion and government, and many are incapable of it.

Religion has killed more people than its saved or helped, and to me, that's ironic. Work needs to be done to make this right or I can't support religion. I do understand why people want to believe in something, I just wish that it could work in a way that's less harmful to people who don't care.

And where did you get your facts? Did religion in fact kill more people or was it the foxes hiding among the sheep? How did you count the amount of good that religion has done vrs bad? Just curious as to your facts or is this opinion?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

The fact is that the universe is big. We have observable measurements of the universe being big. Humanity is nothing but a speck. It's not unlikely were alone in the universe. Other creatures are likely to exist given the size of the universe. There are countless other planets, stars, comets and so on. Assuming that a higher being is responsible for the entire universe, why would a higher being be focused on Earth. Answer me that. What would make the earth so special over so many other planets, stars, moons, asteroids and comets.


I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.


As humans, we should apply our own moral standards to things like this. Standing by while someone else commits a horrible crime is not good if you have the means to prevent them. You indicate that your God operates on a different manner, but as a human you should judge stuff based on your own values.

Your Zelda comparison is fallacious. What if someone who has never played Zelda gets told "this game is like Zelda". They wouldn't have a proper definition of what "this game" has. They would end up playing it and as a result are able to judge said game without saying that it's "like Zelda", since they dont know what a Zelda game is.

If your God works in mysterious ways doesn't mean we don't get to judge said being by our own moral standards. If I kill a man in cold blood and tell their relatives "I assure you, I work in mysterious ways..." do you think they would buy that and suddenly praise me? Let me answer: of course not. A higher being does not escape the judgement we as humans get to apply to it.



This is what we call a train of thought. Although who says we have been made in the image of God? Are monkeys also made in the image of God? Is your God actually a monkey? And since the monkeys came from the mammals, and since all life can be traced back to fish, does that make your God a fish? My point is that you have no proof that your God made you in their image.


Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.

Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.

Your deduction:
If P were true then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be true.
Could it be that one simply lacks proper means of detection?
Stating there is "NO GOD" requires evidence to the fact. Assuming there is "NO GOD" is an opinion.

 

[AkikoKumagara]

And where did you get your facts? Did religion in fact kill more people or was it the foxes hiding among the sheep? How did you count the amount of good that religion has done vrs bad? Just curious as to your facts or is this opinion?

My facts are that historically, religion has been a primary factor behind most war and acts of terrorism, to an unbelievable degree. Around 200,000,000 people have been killed in the name of religion, and if that number isn't staggering to you, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter if the person is a true member of that religion by your standards or not, you're not the gatekeeper of religion. All it takes is for that person to say they believe in something, in the same way that's all it takes from you or anyone else.

Edit: I'm also not claiming religion has directly caused these deaths, just that they may not have happened without its influence. It's not something that can be proven as we can't read one's thoughts or know their true motivation for doing something unless it's made obvious to us.

Note the YOUR in there. Everyone has a god. Not necessarily the Christian one, but it's still there.

Absolutely, unequivocally false. Stop.

 

[Ratatattat]

My facts are that historically, religion has been a primary factor behind most war and acts of terrorism, to an unbelievable degree. Around 200,000,000 people have been killed in the name of religion, and if that number isn't staggering to you, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter if the person is a true member of that religion by your standards or not, you're not the gatekeeper of religion. All it takes is for that person to say they believe in something, in the same way that's all it takes from you or anyone else.

Edit: I'm also not claiming religion has directly caused these deaths, just that they may not have happened without its influence. It's not something that can be proven as we can't read one's thoughts or know their true motivation for doing something unless it's made obvious to us.

First let me say its a tragedy as to what Religion based or just Mankind based atrocities is doing to the human race. That said I sometime think we point our fingers at the container and not the contents. I (opinion) don't believe that most religions teach hate and killing, nor is that their purpose or position. Yet there are those who do take advantage of there positions in such environments and are truly the real culprit. However I (opinion) don't believe that removing religion from the environment would stop or change what the perpetrator would commit in anyway.

 

[AkikoKumagara]

First let me say its a tragedy as to what Religion based or just Mankind based atrocities is doing to the human race. That said I sometime think we point our fingers at the container and not the contents. I (opinion) don't believe that most religions teach hate and killing, nor is that their purpose or position. Yet there are those who do take advantage of there positions in such environments and are truly the real culprit. However I (opinion) don't believe that removing religion from the environment would stop or change what the perpetrator would commit in anyway.

It's impossible to prove either way, so it's a pointless debate. Just something interesting to ponder.