Casual, hardcore, shovelware and the Brainwashed.

Rydian · Sep 3, 2011

Angry rayder is angry.

Beginning: "This is the unfortunate state of how game companies know they can exploit the masses."
End: "Fuck the world!"

I agree with many of your points, but you're edging a little too close to "If you like what I don't like you're stupid" territory about 3/4ths of the way down dude.

Rayder · Sep 3, 2011

Wait and play ~30 years of games and then tell me what you think of the video-game industry.

RoMee · Sep 3, 2011

Nice wall of rant

There's really no reason for nintendo to bring good games here
look at the numbers
MadWorld sold about 390,000 units in America
Muramasa only 260,000
Red Steel 2 and The Conduit, both first-person shooter games, arguably the most popular genre right now, both only sold about 270,000 in America each.
high profile sequels, such as the Conduit 2, barely sell 50,000 worldwide.
Metroid: Other M, only sold around 550,000 units in America

There's no reason to bring games like fatal frame or xenoblade to america knowing it'll probably won't sell, especially when they are making a shit load of money off shovel ware for kids and grandmas.

cris92x · Sep 3, 2011

<div align='left'></div> There is a huge yet simple flaw in your argument, you assume nintendo was "hardcore". Famicom, Family computer, nintendo has always appealed to kids. Super mario, kirby, pokemon, donkey kong, and so forth are all "cute" styled games for a reason to appeal to kids. This doesn't make them any less of a great game, hell I think yoshi's island is the best platformer game of all time and its cutesy. The only thing that has change from the nes to modern nintendo consoles is that the difficulty or rather the game is much more forgiving now( Yoshi's island is very forgiving with the baby timer thing).
What is "hardcore?" I think its a game that isn't pick up and play but requires a steep learning curve and learning a skill. Its like any sport, anybody can kick a football and say they play soccer but not everybody can be a professional player. A good example is a fighting game like street fighter, you can read a guide to learn how to shoot hadoukens and your specials but it requires you to spend countless hours to perfect your technique.

Then there is the other problem that the market is being saturated with fps games..... Go look at NES and SNES most games were 2D, platformers,sidescrollers, beat em ups. 2D platformers sold well so there were tons of games that were 2D platformers, now we have fps and all sorts and we all complain its the same shit but the fact is poeple buy the games in huge masses. Every company wants in on the action, those games that sell well get ripped off because other companies want a piece of that profit. Proportionately developing costs for an average game has increased way more than the increase for the price of a game, this means the company has to make sure the game sells well or that developing costs were cutdown and the game was done for a quick profit which we see all the time. Most companies don't want to gamble on something radically new because its much easier to regurgitate games at a steady profit.

All this "shovelware" exists because there is a market for it, parents want to buy their young daughters games they feel suited for them not games that are "hardcore". Those imagine games we all make fun of, those aren't meant for some 13 year old hormone crazy teenage boy, they are meant for little girls. Shovelware isn't really increasing, maybe in numbers but not in percentages. There are more little girl games than 20 years ago because the gaming industry has immensely expanded, that is the point. Sony,Microsoft, or Nintendo aren't trying to suit a group of elitist gamers, companies go where the money is at. That s the point of a company, to make big profit to keep investors happy.

The point of gaming is to have fun, fun with your siblings, friends or by yourself. If you don't want to buy a game then don't, some poeple will gladly pay through the nose for the next madden, CoD, or pokemon. It is not for everybody, your tastes aren't the same as the next gamer, choose a console with games you want to play not because of nostalgic or company favoritism. Also nothing wrong with cutesy games, they tend to give off a relaxing vibe, but hey everybody has different styles.
P.S. there are more adult gamers than kid gamers

TL;DR version: Shovelware exists because there is a market for them and it has been like this in every console. If cutesy games or rather nintendo games aren't for you, maybe you have outgrown them then buy a different console, nintendo isn't going to change their marketing strategy if it has worked this well. Nintendo will always sell the same type of games. Oh and nothing wrong about a man playing cutesy games.

Hop2089 · Sep 3, 2011

There isn't much shovelware on the Japanese side for the 3DS, I told you people to import. You also will miss out on Senran Kagura, just seen gameplay played by two of the voice actresses themselves, the game is really good especially if you played Final Fight or Streets of Rage.

Zetta_x · Sep 3, 2011

While the rampant piracy on the DS/DSi MIGHT have contributed to the lack of decent titles being released on those systems, I'll bet piracy caused a LOT more DS/DSi's to be sold than would have sold if they were never hacked at all. 3rd-party companies know the install base of those systems are in the millions, and quite a high percentage of that install base are little kids who have no (or very little) say in what games they get to play on it. Clueless parents (who know nothing of piracy or good gaming) buy the system and games based on the extreme numbers of systems sold and buy games they THINK would be best for their kids, and the poor kids end up not knowing any better and play the shovelware their parents bought for them. Those kids end up loving the shovelware for lack of knowing about the better games to play they could have played. Case in point; Imagine games actually sell fairly well.

A system being hacked doesn't increase the amount of shovelware, units sold does. The only thing hacking does is possibly decrease the amount of GOOD games being produced for it, making it LOOK as if shovelware is the result of hacking. Piracy is an excuse used by the industry to continually con people into settling for mediocre games and shovelware so they don't have to try so hard to make good games. If you think otherwise, you are a brainwashed fool.

Don't be deceived. Don't let the industry brainwash you. Unfortunately, for many people (by the praise I see heaped upon some, in my opinion, really crappy and/or regurgitated games) it is too late for some of you and you have already been brainwashed to the point of no return. But I KNOW there are SOME people out there who know what I mean, who see the same trends I see in the video game world, and especially when it comes to Nintendo, it's not good.

Finally someone who understands. Like you said, and I love this part so much,

"I'll bet piracy caused a LOT more DS/DSi's to be sold than would have sold if they were never hacked at all. 3rd-party companies know the install base of those systems are in the millions, and quite a high percentage of that install base are little kids who have no (or very little) say in what games they get to play on it."

Without a doubt, the 3ds would have pulled a lot more revenue if it had piracy because of the same phenomenon mentioned above with the DS/DSI (and the wii). I am one of the many people who absolutely will not buy a 3ds until it happens.

Nintendo has a chance to pull in piracy users; it's a solution that doesn't qualify as piracy but it's pretty much what pirates do. I said this before in a thread when I first joined and was flamed to death; but Nintendo should allow the chance to download X amount of games with a monthly subscription. The month subscription cost would be developed based on the average number of 3ds games are sold per year so that they still make more profit. In return, users can download up to X amount of games per month with no cost.

I was told I had no clue what the gaming industry was about, my thread was locked, no one really followed what I was saying...; but if you look at previous statistics, when players have easy accessibility with games (like pirating), the user base increases exponentially. The amount of people playing will be like open advertising (to the brainwashed parents and kids). When there is a large amount of user base, people feel more comfortable making purchases to a system (sort of like number of downloads on a cnet page). It won't be piracy and everyone will have the option to do it. Not only will Nintendo make on average more than selling single 3ds games, but they would have a larger player base then it is now.

How does this balance out. Most people, especially the ones who can't think logically, would believe people downloading X games for like $10-15 dollars a month would create an unbalance. The key factor is people will be downloading shovelware where people will not be buying shovelware in singles. For example, people may try nintendogs where they wouldn't have bought the game before. Just to be sure people will continue their subscription, the limit had to be put to an X amount of games and they can't download all the hot titles per month.

-----

I got off on a tangent there, but I loathe brainwashed people and I see them everywhere on the forums.

Rydian · Sep 3, 2011

[quote name='Hop2089' post='3868181' date='Sep 3 2011, 10:29 AM']There isn't much shovelware on the Japanese side[/quote]I think this counts in general. There's a lot more US-only releases than most people think about, but people overseas tend to not complain about not getting Imagine Pony games, so it's sort of a one-sided want.

FireGrey · Sep 3, 2011

"Casual Gamers" are usually the ones under 10 that like all the little games and "cutesy-games"
"Hard Core Gamers" are usually teenagers and like all the violent and the recent popular game/fps
Hard Core Gamers trash the kids for their "stupid games", well those kids are more mature than them because they don't go and trash all the FPSs and such.
Why can't teenagers just give those kids a break?

Another thing i noticed is that Hard Core Gamers go apes at their game when they lose.
Casual Gamers are just playing for fun.
Why do Hard Core Gamers even play games if they just make them go mad?

I would say there is not much Casual Gamers or Hardcore Gamers on the 'temp
We're mostly just, well Gamers.

BoxmanWTF · Sep 3, 2011

[quote name='Hop2089' post='3868181' date='Sep 3 2011, 05:29 PM']There isn't much shovelware on the Japanese side for the 3DS, I told you people to import. You also will miss out on Senran Kagura, just seen gameplay played by two of the voice actresses themselves, the game is really good especially if you played Final Fight or Streets of Rage.[/quote]
yes..import those japanese games our region locked 3ds's

why did nintendo region lock? :cry:

machomuu · Sep 3, 2011

[quote name='FireGrey' post='3868303' date='Sep 3 2011, 12:03 PM']"Casual Gamers" are usually the ones under 10 that like all the little games and "cutesy-games"
"Hard Core Gamers" are usually teenagers and like all the violent and the recent popular game/fps
Hard Core Gamers trash the kids for their "stupid games", well those kids are more mature than them because they don't go and trash all the FPSs and such.
Why can't teenagers just give those kids a break?

Another thing i noticed is that Hard Core Gamers go apes at their game when they lose.
Casual Gamers are just playing for fun.
Why do Hard Core Gamers even play games if they just make them go mad?

I would say there is not much Casual Gamers or Hardcore Gamers on the 'temp
We're mostly just, well Gamers.[/quote]
Casual Gamers are gamers that mostly play casual games. Hardcore gamers are debatable, but just because you play FPS/mainstream doesn't make you hardcore, that just makes you a mainstream gamer which is a branch of a core gamer. Then there are all the gamers in between.

xist · Sep 3, 2011

[quote name='Rayder' post='3867683' date='Sep 3 2011, 06:52 AM']A system being hacked doesn't increase the amount of shovelware, units sold does.[/quote]

This sentence alone is immensely valid. If the 3DS was hacked undoubtedly it'd shift more consoles, which would be good for Nintendo and encourage more decent developers to get involved. However, the not so decent dev's would see it as an easy way to expose a large audience to their rubbish, hence more tepid games. Shovelware is like spam email....the bigger the audience it's exposed to the more chance of a return which is why the DS got so much compared to other formats...it has an immense number of consoles in the wild. Those arguments that think Shovelware is due to hacking are losing sight of the fact that shovelware occurs on POPULAR consoles - There may not be a massive influx of it on the 3DS at the moment but that's more a damning indictment of the install base of the 3DS than the strength of it's security.

If anything a hack now is just what the 3DS to recapture the interest of gamers and generate more publicity.

machomuu · Sep 3, 2011

I don't really see why people would think it would make more shovelware. My arguement is that it lowers the chance of quality games being created, as was the case with the DS, though it still had a great library.

ShadowSoldier · Sep 3, 2011

[quote name='Rayder' post='3867683' date='Sep 2 2011, 10:52 PM']Ninty has brought the shovelware tsunami upon themselves by catering to the cutesy-game loving crowd and ignoring the "hardcore" gamers for far too long.[/quote] That's not nintendo's fault lol. Blame on the developers for not wanting to release a game on their console. There's no excuse for them to not make new IP's, or make games that are good for the console, even if it doesn't have the guts as the competitors. Nintendo has never made a hardcore game, they're still bringing out the games they did when we were all younger, the hardcore games came from 3rd party devs.

All I know is that I won't even consider getting a 3DS until it is hacked.

Wow. That's all I have to say.

It started out decent enough at first, but ended in disgust. I feel the 3DS will go the same route in the long run.

Every console nearing it's end starts getting less and less quality titles. You're seriously bitching about that?

While the rampant piracy on the DS/DSi MIGHT have contributed to the lack of decent titles being released on those systems, I'll bet piracy caused a LOT more DS/DSi's to be sold than would have sold if they were never hacked at all.

Hardware =/= Software. Why make a game for a console if shit tons of people are just going to steal it?

Even if the kids DON'T like the games their parents bought for them, it's too late, the game is already bought and opened. Ain't it such a great little scam video game companies have set up to not allow returns on open games? Yeah, you buy that game, it sucks, and you're stuck with it, like it or not. Oh sure, you can trade it in....for pennies on the dollar.

Move to somewhere better. I bought Rayman 3D, I opened it up, tried it, found out it was a port of a 1999 game, returned it to EB Games saying I didn't like it, and they gave me a full refund. It even says on my receipt "did not like it"

Yeah, what a deal. Oh, but they still expect you to BUY the next crappy, regurgitated game instead of slurping it up for free on the internet, when possible. My ass! Click, click, mother f-er!

Then don't buy it, simple as that. They aren't forcing you, or expect you to. They want you to yeah, but they don't expect everyone to buy their game.

A system being hacked doesn't increase the amount of shovelware, units sold does. The only thing hacking does is possibly decrease the amount of GOOD games being produced for it, making it LOOK as if shovelware is the result of hacking. Piracy is an excuse used by the industry to continually con people into settling for mediocre games and shovelware so they don't have to try so hard to make good games. If you think otherwise, you are a brainwashed fool.

lol spoken like a true pirate who doesn't want to pay for games. You're seriously talking as if you're 72 and you're talking as if you came from the age when cold bottles of Coke was 25 cents.

Don't be deceived. Don't let the industry brainwash you. Unfortunately, for many people (by the praise I see heaped upon some, in my opinion, really crappy and/or regurgitated games) it is too late for some of you and you have already been brainwashed to the point of no return. But I KNOW there are SOME people out there who know what I mean, who see the same trends I see in the video game world, and especially when it comes to Nintendo, it's not good.

Now you lost me. You're talking as if you're a politician. You tell us not to believe what the enemy says to us, but you expect us to believe you and follow along? k.

You know what's REALLY sad? There are people who are going to argue just about everything I said. Many of you won't even read (or retain long enough to properly reply to) everything I wrote either. You'll say you read it all (and maybe you did), but you likely didn't comprehend (or remember) most of it and will pick-and-choose small sections to refute. Those are the people who don't even realize how brainwashed they actually are, which shows you just how successful Ninty (and the industry as a whole) has been at fleecing their sheep and how you've been programmed to argue against that brainwashing.

No shit people are going to argue against you. You sound like a crazy nutjob right now, talking about how they're brainwashing us and stuff. And let me guess, you guess the JFK assassination was a cover up, 9/11 was done by the U.S., and there is such a thing as a Chupacabra?

No, I won't mention any specific games that you guys seem to love and I think suck. Why? I don't want to incite a flame-fest by arguing with brainwashed suckers who have been programmed to love mediocrity.

Wow, dick much? Maybe you've been brainwashed to just be a stuck up cranky guy who thinks companies are brainwashing him.

Arguing with a brainwashed person is like arguing atheism with a religious zealot, which is to say, impossible and pointless. But I will say that there is a very high percentage of brainwashed sheep here at GBAtemp and it saddens me to see just how many such members there are here. I can only hang my head in pity at how many of you have been suckered into believing crap is good and will never see how it REALLY is in today's video-game world.

Then why don't you leave gbatemp? It'd make you happier, and us (READ: NOT ALL) happy too.

I've been gaming for 30+ years. I've lived through the video game crash and experienced the resurgence of video games. I see what is going on now and so very little of it impresses me in the least. Sure, graphics have gotten prettier, but the games are mostly the same stuff I've played years ago.

Then maybe it's time for you to stop gaming all together.

Anti-hackers are just one sect of the many brainwashed fools that exist in the video game realm.

So because I don't want to hack a console, I'm a brainwashed fool? Oh, well okay then, I guess from your rant here, your a paranoid veteran gamer who can't accept change.

Fear Zoa · Sep 3, 2011

Eh I support hacking the 3ds even if its only to remove the region lock, at least for now
Piracy has its time and place but not now, give it a year.
^pokemon?

KingVamp · Sep 3, 2011

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='3868220' date='Sep 3 2011, 09:58 AM']*snip*[/quote]
...

[quote name='ShadowSoldier' post='3868340' date='Sep 3 2011, 11:26 AM'][quote name='Rayder' post='3867683' date='Sep 2 2011, 10:52 PM']Ninty has brought the shovelware tsunami upon themselves by catering to the cutesy-game loving crowd and ignoring the "hardcore" gamers for far too long.[/quote] That's not nintendo's fault lol. Blame on the developers for not wanting to release a game on their console. There's no excuse for them to not make new IP's, or make games that are good for the console, even if it doesn't have the guts as the competitors. Nintendo has never made a hardcore game, they're still bringing out the games they did when we were all younger, the hardcore games came from 3rd party devs.
[/quote]
Wait ... wait, what make Nintendo games not "hardcore"? (expect maybe like Nintendogs, Pilotwings, and even that Steel Diver which are still not bad.)

Side: Never really hear anything about a game being for the Hardcore or casual irl.

Terminator02 · Sep 4, 2011

[quote name='cris92x' post='3867801' date='Sep 3 2011, 03:18 AM']<div align='left'></div> There is a huge yet simple flaw in your argument, you assume nintendo was "hardcore". Famicom, Family computer, nintendo has always appealed to kids. Super mario, kirby, pokemon, donkey kong, and so forth are all "cute" styled games for a reason to appeal to kids. This doesn't make them any less of a great game, hell I think yoshi's island is the best platformer game of all time and its cutesy. The only thing that has change from the nes to modern nintendo consoles is that the difficulty or rather the game is much more forgiving now( Yoshi's island is very forgiving with the baby timer thing).
What is "hardcore?" I think its a game that isn't pick up and play but requires a steep learning curve and learning a skill. Its like any sport, anybody can kick a football and say they play soccer but not everybody can be a professional player. A good example is a fighting game like street fighter, you can read a guide to learn how to shoot hadoukens and your specials but it requires you to spend countless hours to perfect your technique.

Then there is the other problem that the market is being saturated with fps games..... Go look at NES and SNES most games were 2D, platformers,sidescrollers, beat em ups. 2D platformers sold well so there were tons of games that were 2D platformers, now we have fps and all sorts and we all complain its the same shit but the fact is poeple buy the games in huge masses. Every company wants in on the action, those games that sell well get ripped off because other companies want a piece of that profit. Proportionately developing costs for an average game has increased way more than the increase for the price of a game, this means the company has to make sure the game sells well or that developing costs were cutdown and the game was done for a quick profit which we see all the time. Most companies don't want to gamble on something radically new because its much easier to regurgitate games at a steady profit.

All this "shovelware" exists because there is a market for it, parents want to buy their young daughters games they feel suited for them not games that are "hardcore". Those imagine games we all make fun of, those aren't meant for some 13 year old hormone crazy teenage boy, they are meant for little girls. Shovelware isn't really increasing, maybe in numbers but not in percentages. There are more little girl games than 20 years ago because the gaming industry has immensely expanded, that is the point. Sony,Microsoft, or Nintendo aren't trying to suit a group of elitist gamers, companies go where the money is at. That s the point of a company, to make big profit to keep investors happy.

The point of gaming is to have fun, fun with your siblings, friends or by yourself. If you don't want to buy a game then don't, some poeple will gladly pay through the nose for the next madden, CoD, or pokemon. It is not for everybody, your tastes aren't the same as the next gamer, choose a console with games you want to play not because of nostalgic or company favoritism. Also nothing wrong with cutesy games, they tend to give off a relaxing vibe, but hey everybody has different styles.
P.S. there are more adult gamers than kid gamers

TL;DR version: Shovelware exists because there is a market for them and it has been like this in every console. If cutesy games or rather nintendo games aren't for you, maybe you have outgrown them then buy a different console, nintendo isn't going to change their marketing strategy if it has worked this well. Nintendo will always sell the same type of games. Oh and nothing wrong about a man playing cutesy games.[/quote]
i love you :wub:

Jakob95 · Sep 18, 2011

[quote name='ShadowSoldier' post='3868340' date='Sep 3 2011, 12:26 PM']*Snip*[/quote]
Wow so you are brainwashed too I guess..

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Casual, hardcore, shovelware and the Brainwashed.

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Rydian

Rayder

RoMee

cris92x

Hop2089

Zetta_x

Rydian

FireGrey

BoxmanWTF

machomuu

xist

machomuu

ShadowSoldier

Fear Zoa

KingVamp

Terminator02

Jakob95

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