A BIOS/CMOS battery is a wear part! (rant) [pictures ≈ 300KB]

Seriously, why is it such a big deal? Sure, it would be nice if the battery was easily replaceable, but big whoop, only thing it matters for is setting the clock (easily ignored by setting Windows to get the time from the internet automatically), it's not like old laptops have many BIOS settings anyways, unlike desktops that need fan adjustments and other shit

never get in to vintage computing. you will never have to deal with a Dallas DS1287 - fucking bane of my existence especially when you have clients that rather than just wanting the RTC battery chip replacing ($5) they expect me to 'hack it' to use a standard 2032 battery which I will charge them $20 to do. Then they get all shocked that my time is worth actual money.

Uiaad said:

never get in to vintage computing. you will never have to deal with a Dallas DS1287

Click to expand...

Mhhm. I think I have some of these on the attic. They probably failed by now. I can't replace them.

ThoD said:

[…]but big whoop, only thing it matters for is setting the clock (easily ignored by setting Windows to get the time from the internet automatically),

Click to expand...

Double wrong:

• Turning on this laptop after losing CMOS data means: Waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And finally getting a graphical(!) error message you have to confirm. Then it is back to waiting. And finally it will start booting. Perhaps. Or turn it off by holding power button 4 seconds and turn it on again.
  
• This laptop is not compatible with any supported Windows version… and yes: The Linux distro was configured to get the time from the internet.

Most HPs are easy to change the battery on. So it's depending on model and maker.

Laptop design is a whole bunch of trade-offs - and to be honest the priority of having the laptop's bios battery accessible is pretty damned low. A 2032 is designed to last 5 or 6 years and by then it's pretty likely that a user will have upgraded so from a manufacturers pov its a total non-issue. Why spend money designing it to be accessible when very few end users will have to deal with it ?

I love "retro" computing, it made me think of the time I swapped me iBook G4's HDD with a mSATA to IDE.
Disassembling the entire bloody iBook just to swap a storage medium.

Uiaad said:

Laptop design is a whole bunch of trade-offs - and to be honest the priority of having the laptop's bios battery accessible is pretty damned low. A 2032 is designed to last 5 or 6 years and by then it's pretty likely that a user will have upgraded so from a manufacturers pov its a total non-issue. Why spend money designing it to be accessible when very few end users will have to deal with it ?

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. And I'm one of these few and for me it's a total non-non-issue. I would gladly pay a little more for a design allowing me better access to components. Using a computer only 5-6 years is out of question for me.
Old computers are also helpful for testing purposes. I'm very strict about what software to run on my main computer.

linuxares said:

Most HPs are easy to change the battery on. So it's depending on model and maker.

Click to expand...

I've heard good things about HP tablets as well. But I never have the choice:
Cheap no-name devices always find their way to me… it's not that I buy them. People give them to me when they don't work anymore as normal.

But there is the problem, companies don't design hardware around one user, with the vast majority of people upgrading they aren't going to care about a few edge cases or figure that anyone who is hanging on to the hardware is going to be able to replace the battery without much issue. You have to think tho they have bigger concerns, especially with laptops where space is at a premium and they have to work to a price point. I really do know its a pain, but it's just something we have to accept.

Part of my paid job is designing electronics. Nothing as complex as whole laptops but complex enough to have to factor in price points and footprints. Sacrifices always have to be made one way or the other and usually this comes at the cost of accessibility.

@DinohScene
I’ve no experience with Apple products and always thought the older ones were designed for easy access to components. Nowadays the solder the SSD and RAM to the motherboard if I remember that correctly.

@Uiaad
Please don’t take that blog entry too seriously. I’m a little choleric and sometime want to let off steam… then I choose some too extreme words.

You are right with your comments. From the manufacturer’s point of view it does not make economical sense to invest into easy access for CMOS battery. Most people don’t care. Most people throw away and want new, new, new. And they want it cheap. Older things are not good enough. The computer does not hold up well… and so on.

It is the ecological part I criticize the on this modern attitude: “Only new is cool.”
This is not good for our resources. I got very angry when Vodafone had this advertising campaign: “A new smartphone every year!” in Germany. I felt some pain each time seeing one of the giant posters on the bus stop or on some wall.

For me it’s “Repairing and preserving is cool.”

Uiaad said:

Part of my paid job is designing electronics.

Click to expand...

You deserve respect! Dealing with Dallas DS1287… designing electronics. Wow. I wish I could do this. Didn’t you mention refurbishing a Commodore 64 at some point?

===========
The computer is working now again. Maybe I should have used a 3032 instead. There is enough space there.

HDDs are now buried inside the Laptops fs even RAM so I feel your Anger.

Most of the time only need to go into Laptop to replace Screen or CPU/GPU maintenance.

If it's got a processor i'll fix it haha - I get C64's through all the time for this that or the other, mostly just people wanting to have recaps done or to sort out irritating problems or they have just stopped working for whatever reason. To be honest, I only charge for parts and shipping if i know it's going to a home where it's actually gonna be played with and enjoyed. If they are just gonna go and flip it on Ebay they get labor on top of that. Restoring and preserving old computers is a hobby which just happens to overlap with some of my day today work ( I wear a lot of hats at work ) The only machine I have in for restore right now is an IBM 5150 - Which when it leaves me will be going to a museum as an interactive piece, but this long term project so I've got about 6 months to a year to work on it

Ha I just replaced the cmos battery on my desktop yesterday. Wasn't much of a pain

Desktop CMOS batteries are a literal joke to replace, doesn't even begin to compare to an old laptop

Arghh, same with watches! Make the watch battery accessible as fuck goddammit! Put it on the watch face!

Yep these cmos batteries are usually like this. Its not as bad as laptops from the 90s. they have special NiCd rechargeable batteries for the cmos.... I have an At&t l486 dx2 laptop from 1995 and the cmos battery has leaked releasing a gas that melted some of the LCD screen coating. The screen still works and is a clear display. That particular model laptop cost more then $5,000 in 1995.

You know whats worse SSD's soldered to the main board. SSD is a wear device aswell.

Captain_N said:

Yep these cmos batteries are usually like this. Its not as bad as laptops from the 90s. they have special NiCd rechargeable batteries for the cmos.... I have an At&t l486 dx2 laptop from 1995 and the cmos battery has leaked releasing a gas that melted some of the LCD screen coating. The screen still works and is a clear display. That particular model laptop cost more then $5,000 in 1995.

Click to expand...

I remember a thing with three NiCd coin batteries in a shrinkable tube soldered onto the mainboard of a 386 computer. These are still available as NiMh. Nice picture on [reichelt.de]

You know whats worse SSD's soldered to the main board. SSD is a wear device aswell.

Click to expand...

Hmmhm. Everything will wear down. The whole computer will eventually fail. Unless forcing it I don’t see an SSD failing of write cycles any time soon. More likely is spontaneous failure. There is another problem with soldered on SSD and RAM: Cannot upgrade.

Anything that is soldered can be unsoldered. SMT (Surface Mount Tech sometimes called Surface Mount Devices SMD)components can be changed like any other they just require a little more care and a different technique for replacing. As for SSD's we really are just beginning with this technology and its improving in both storage capacity, price and reliability year upon year. A Lot of people see Mechanical drives as almost infallible when they compare them to SSDs. Their main problem of course is that they are Mechanical, drops and knocks can kill them quite easily and although we now have better protection for this a la the gravity sensor its not perfect. And then you have to consider that they are also magnetic media and although they don't have the problem early drives had as they age they are still susceptible to the same sorts of problems ( sticking motors, demagnetizing crashing heads ect ect ect)

Mechanical drives used to archive data ( ie written to and then disconnected from a computer and placed in environmentally controlled place ) will typically last around 15 years under the best conditions SSD are more around 50 years currently with this probably raising to 100 in the next couple of years with Quad Cell and other technology improvements *

* sorry bit rambly and unfocused can explain more later just off out to go and see the Last Skywalker so a little pressed for time haha

Uiaad said:

A Lot of people see Mechanical drives as almost infallible when they compare them to SSDs. Their main problem of course is that they are Mechanical, drops and knocks can kill them quite easily and although we now have better protection for this a la the gravity sensor its not perfect.

Click to expand...

I have seen that mechanical weakness – twice. (People sometimes bring their computers to me to have their OS reinstalled). Two persons had lost their temper. I guess it was banging on the desk. In both cases the laptop survived.

• One HDD lost a lot of sectors and desperately tried sector reallocation which made the drive sloooow. The OS was dead but copying the personal data by putting the HDD in an external SATA→USB3 enclosure worked. Right after finishing the painfully slow process SMART reported “Your drive will fail soon.” Okay, my poor HDD, you did it. You may now rest in peace.
• The second HDD was a complete loss. Sad ticking noise and nothing more. (And no backup existed)

As much as I would like to replace my HDDs with SSDs… they are still too expensive for storing multiple TB. For the next years some rotating disks will stay in my stationary computers.

* sorry bit rambly and unfocused can explain more later just off out to go and see the Last Skywalker so a little pressed for time haha

Click to expand...

Long term storage is a very interesting topic. I’ve read that SSD manufactures only guarantee holding the data about one or two years after turning off (maybe that is old information). Flash memory can definitely hold data longer under bad conditions (save still intact).

If you know more and/or have some reading material about archiving/long term data storage it would be nice if you shared it.

I have been thinking about series of blog posts examining how far in computers we have come looking technologies flaws and where we are currently heading. Next year tho we should start seeing some cheaper SSDs coming in larger capacities as the first Quad Cell drives should be hitting shelves. Whether you choose a HDD or SSD or even some undreamt technology there will never be a replacement for backup and redundant backups.

SSDs have a limited amount of time of data retention when not powered. the manufacturers put it at about 10 years underpowered. Each nand gate requires a small charge at the gate to retain the data. over time that charge dissipates. mechanical drives do degrade as well as the magnetic will become weaker. The time frame is longer tho. 20 years about. I have 30 year old drives that still retain their data. I dont suggest archiving on a ssd. at least with a mechanical drive you can replace the heads and the acturator with the heads. On a ssd you aint getting shit off a failed nand chip.

The reason hdds are not as reliable as they used to be is the manufacturers making them cheaper. I have had more modern drives fail on me then drives from 2005. I do not trust the helium filled drives. that seal will fail well before the mechanical part fail for an archive drive. You cant even service them drives yourself. once you open it the helium is gone and the seal is done. So dont archive on helium filled drives