Logic behind Christianity?

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771062' date='Jul 12 2011, 06:52 PM'][quote name='RockmanForte' post='3770430' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:56 AM']EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you.

I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:

Catholic worship on Sundays, Muslim worship on Fridays, and Jewish worship on Saturdays. Those didnt existed in the bible. WARNING: Those are just man-made rules according to Matthew 12:9-14 as proof.[/quote]
Muslims worship every day. You know, daily prayers and whatnot. Friday is just a day for Muslims to assemble with other Muslims to do a group prayer as a part of the community.
[/quote]

That's not what I mean...

Nowhere does the bible say that Christian meetings were to be held on Sunday or any other particular day of the week. Why do many professed Christians observe Sunday as a holy day? THe custom of worshiping on Sunday arose after the Bible was completed and a variety of beliefs and traditions not based on the Bible had begun to appear.

Did God later reestablish a weekly day for communal worship? Absolutely not. Why not ? The entire pattern for true worship is laid out in detail in the bible. No other inspired writings have been added to the Holy Scriptures. You know apostle Paul ? He was inspired to write: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyound what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8. See ?

Refreshing worship that pleases God... Although the religious leaders of Jesus' day scrupulously observed a weekly holy day, their worship was not acceptable to God because their hearts were wicked. They loved money and look down on common, humble people. Yeah... They desired prominence, they were corrupt.. a corrupt, and they were deeply involved in the political struggles of their day. Proof ? (Matthew 23:6, 7, 29-33; Luke 16:14; John 11:46-48) They claimed to represent God. Yet they turned the Sabbath, which God had intended to be a source of refreshment, into an oppressive system of man-made rules as I said before. Matthew 12:9-14. Did you read this bible, didn't you ?

Clearly, observing a weekly holy day is not in itself the key to worship that pleases God. What is need ? Jesus gave this appealing invitation: "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you." Here it is (Matthew 11:28) Worship that is truly based on Jesus' teaching is indeed refreshing. It is free of hypocrisy.. a hypocrisy and burdensome rituals.

Credit was given to someone else.

Hope it helps.

[quote name='RockmanForte' post='3771095' date='Jul 12 2011, 07:14 PM'][quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771062' date='Jul 12 2011, 06:52 PM'][quote name='RockmanForte' post='3770430' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:56 AM']EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you.

I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:

Catholic worship on Sundays, Muslim worship on Fridays, and Jewish worship on Saturdays. Those didnt existed in the bible. WARNING: Those are just man-made rules according to Matthew 12:9-14 as proof.[/quote]
Muslims worship every day. You know, daily prayers and whatnot. Friday is just a day for Muslims to assemble with other Muslims to do a group prayer as a part of the community.
[/quote]

That's not what I mean...

Nowhere does the bible say that Christian meetings were to be held on Sunday or any other particular day of the week. Why do many professed Christians observe Sunday as a holy day? THe custom of worshiping on Sunday arose after the Bible was completed and a variety of beliefs and traditions not based on the Bible had begun to appear.

Did God later reestablish a weekly day for communal worship? Absolutely not. Why not ? The entire pattern for true worship is laid out in detail in the bible. No other inspired writings have been added to the Holy Scriptures. You know apostle Paul ? He was inspired to write: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyound what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8. See ?

Refreshing worship that pleases God... Although the religious leaders of Jesus' day scrupulously observed a weekly holy day, their worship was not acceptable to God because their hearts were wicked. They loved money and look down on common, humble people. Yeah... They desired prominence, they were corrupt.. a corrupt, and they were deeply involved in the political struggles of their day. Proof ? (Matthew 23:6, 7, 29-33; Luke 16:14; John 11:46-48) They claimed to represent God. Yet they turned the Sabbath, which God had intended to be a source of refreshment, into an oppressive system of man-made rules as I said before. Matthew 12:9-14. Did you read this bible, didn't you ?

Clearly, observing a weekly holy day is not in itself the key to worship that pleases God. What is need ? Jesus gave this appealing invitation: "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you." Here it is (Matthew 11:28) Worship that is truly based on Jesus' teaching is indeed refreshing. It is free of hypocrisy.. a hypocrisy and burdensome rituals.

Credit was given to someone else.

Hope it helps.
[/quote]
Sure. But Muslims don't follow the Bible. So why do you include them? Especially since Friday isn't about prayer and worship as it is about community.

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771333' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:02 PM'][quote name='RockmanForte' post='3771095' date='Jul 12 2011, 07:14 PM'][quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771062' date='Jul 12 2011, 06:52 PM'][quote name='RockmanForte' post='3770430' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:56 AM']EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you.

I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:

Catholic worship on Sundays, Muslim worship on Fridays, and Jewish worship on Saturdays. Those didnt existed in the bible. WARNING: Those are just man-made rules according to Matthew 12:9-14 as proof.[/quote]
Muslims worship every day. You know, daily prayers and whatnot. Friday is just a day for Muslims to assemble with other Muslims to do a group prayer as a part of the community.
[/quote]

That's not what I mean...

Nowhere does the bible say that Christian meetings were to be held on Sunday or any other particular day of the week. Why do many professed Christians observe Sunday as a holy day? THe custom of worshiping on Sunday arose after the Bible was completed and a variety of beliefs and traditions not based on the Bible had begun to appear.

Did God later reestablish a weekly day for communal worship? Absolutely not. Why not ? The entire pattern for true worship is laid out in detail in the bible. No other inspired writings have been added to the Holy Scriptures. You know apostle Paul ? He was inspired to write: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyound what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8. See ?

Refreshing worship that pleases God... Although the religious leaders of Jesus' day scrupulously observed a weekly holy day, their worship was not acceptable to God because their hearts were wicked. They loved money and look down on common, humble people. Yeah... They desired prominence, they were corrupt.. a corrupt, and they were deeply involved in the political struggles of their day. Proof ? (Matthew 23:6, 7, 29-33; Luke 16:14; John 11:46-48) They claimed to represent God. Yet they turned the Sabbath, which God had intended to be a source of refreshment, into an oppressive system of man-made rules as I said before. Matthew 12:9-14. Did you read this bible, didn't you ?

Clearly, observing a weekly holy day is not in itself the key to worship that pleases God. What is need ? Jesus gave this appealing invitation: "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you." Here it is (Matthew 11:28) Worship that is truly based on Jesus' teaching is indeed refreshing. It is free of hypocrisy.. a hypocrisy and burdensome rituals.

Credit was given to someone else.

Hope it helps.
[/quote]
Sure. But Muslims don't follow the Bible. So why do you include them? Especially since Friday isn't about prayer and worship as it is about community.
[/quote]

Well, you are right. Muslims do not believe in the Bible.... HOWEVER... Correction: To believe in something entails having faith and trust in it, and it is plenty to say that no Muslim puts any faith or trust in the Bible. In essence, Muslims do not believe in the Bible. There are misconceptions out there that Muslims believe in parts of the Bible, and that would mean the Muslims would have to assume that one part of the Bible or the other is true - simply because it agrees with what the Quran says. On the contrary we are taught in the Quran not to assume and our faith can never be based upon assumption. The revelations that once were the Torah and the Gospel, were time-specific and tribe-specific revelations and therefore it was not necessary for them to be preserved.

Credit was given to someone else.

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771062' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:52 PM']

[quote name='Vulpes Abnocto' post='3770477' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:27 PM']It's a matter of free will.

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Or else.
[/quote]
No, I'm pretty sure accepting a religion is a matter of free will.
[/quote]

Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771504' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:24 AM']Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.[/quote]

Never thought of it that way, but well said!

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771504' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:24 AM']Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.[/quote]
It's still free-will. A person is free to believe whether he or she will or won't go to hell and if hell, heaven and God exist. And Islam doesn't punish all unbelievers with hell.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771504' date='Jul 13 2011, 05:24 AM'][quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771062' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:52 PM']

[quote name='Vulpes Abnocto' post='3770477' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:27 PM']It's a matter of free will.

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Or else.
[/quote]
No, I'm pretty sure accepting a religion is a matter of free will.
[/quote]

Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.
[/quote]
Not all Christians believe in hell.

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771557' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:43 AM'][quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771504' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:24 AM']Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.[/quote]
It's still free-will. A person is free to believe whether he or she will or won't go to hell and if hell, heaven and God exist.[/quote]

Yes but if it was a real choice then those who don't believe would just not get the rewards of heaven, and not get the punishment of hell.

And Islam doesn't punish all unbelievers with hell.

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But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire

I can carry on if you want.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771570' date='Jul 13 2011, 02:04 AM'][quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771557' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:43 AM'][quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771504' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:24 AM']Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.[/quote]
It's still free-will. A person is free to believe whether he or she will or won't go to hell and if hell, heaven and God exist.[/quote]

Yes but if it was a real choice then those who don't believe would just not get the rewards of heaven, and not get the punishment of hell.

And Islam doesn't punish all unbelievers with hell.

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But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire

I can carry on if you want.
[/quote]
I don't really feel like debating this right now. But, depending on the school of thought, unbelievers under the age of 40 go to heaven. A person who isn't Muslim but believes in God in some way and leads a good life goes to heaven. And judgment is done on a case by case basis. Not all unbelievers go to hell.

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771586' date='Jul 13 2011, 07:28 AM']I don't really feel like debating this right now. But, depending on the school of thought, unbelievers under the age of 40 go to heaven. A person who isn't Muslim but believes in God in some way and leads a good life goes to heaven. And judgment is done on a case by case basis. Not all unbelievers go to hell.[/quote]

Fair enough, take your time. But if you can point towards where in the Koran that interpretation can be made I'll read up myself.

But it still seems that belief in God is a requirement of not going to hell. While Islam may spare some other believers in God hell, anyone who does not believe at all are still a dead cert. So yes it does punish all unbelievers with hell, it only doesn't punish all none believers in Islam with hell.

Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?

[quote name='Magmorph' post='3771622' date='Jul 13 2011, 03:16 AM']Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand correctly the meaning of your last sentence. Could you rephrase?
But, yes, a person who lived a good life but never heard of Islam would theoretically go to heaven.

But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire

I can carry on if you want.

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disbelieve

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Those who

disbelieve

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Our revelations

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The word disbelieve here is used for those who rejected Islam having complete and true knowledge of it.
For Example:

But if he is of the rejecters

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"Surely those who have faith and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabaeans - whoever has faith in God and the Last Day and does good deeds - indeed their reward is with their Lord and they will neither fear nor grieve"


"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it."
(Holy Quran 99:7-8)

Note:The word anyone written here refers to everyone not only Muslims.


"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Holy Quran 4:48).

Yes but if it was a real choice then those who don't believe would just not get the rewards of heaven, and not get the punishment of hell.

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Free will does not mean that you won't be held accountable for your deeds.Allah has to keep a balance of treatment between those who do good works and those who don't.

[quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3771676' date='Jul 13 2011, 09:32 AM']

Yes but if it was a real choice then those who don't believe would just not get the rewards of heaven, and not get the punishment of hell.

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Free will does not mean that you won't be held accountable for your deeds.Allah has to keep a balance of treatment between those who do good works and those who don't.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I get the concept of being accountable for ones deeds, but what about the plenty of good atheists out there? They still go to hell no matter how good they are. And not for deeds but thoughts. You've strengthened that point in your own response. It is still a case of believe in the one God or go to hell no matter what.

but what about the plenty of good atheists out there?

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It's up to them.....if they repent and accept Allah/God as their Creator they can still go to heaven.
If a person believes that there is no God then why would he expect something good in the Afterlife(in which he certainly disbelieves) and why would Allah send an atheist who does good but disbelieves,to heaven or even reward him .....it would be so unjust to those who believe but still will be send to hell as a punishment for their sins.

[quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3771932' date='Jul 13 2011, 01:19 PM']

but what about the plenty of good atheists out there?

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It's up to them.....if they repent and accept Allah/God as their Creator they can still go to heaven.
If a person believes that there is no God then why would he expect something good in the Afterlife(in which he certainly disbelieves) and why would Allah send an atheist who does good but disbelieves,to heaven or even reward him .....it would be so unjust to those who believe but still will be send to hell as a punishment for their sins.
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So why not just punish them by denying them existence instead of by treating them as evil?

But again all you are doing is agreeing with my point. EDIT, while trying to play silly word games to make it look like you're not until you are backed into a corner. You carry on proving the only reason to believe is the threat of torture if you don't.

So why not just punish them by denying them existence instead of by treating them as evil?

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Everyone has free will so the person will decide whether he wants a righteous life or a life which is useless.
This would again be so injust.Let me explain you the system of Life after Death:

Death can never be the end of life,for had it been so,the end of the good and the bad will be one and the same .Besides,it will be opposed to the Divine Justice to allow a good and a bad life,both to equally end in extinction.To imagine the one who suffered miseries,tortures and painful death for the sake of goodness under Divine command to please Allah and the one who lived in wise and all sorts of luxuries and criminal enjoyments prohibited by Allah to be leveled together is opposed to reasoning and justice therefore the belief in life after death reminds men that a life on this earth is temporary and it will come to an end one day.On that Day(Judgement)all human beings will go on trial and be rewarded and punished accordingly.
As I mentioned before,The Holy Quran says,
"Whoever does an atom of good shall see it and whoever does an atom of evil shall see it."(99:7-8)

But again all you are doing is agreeing with my point. EDIT, while trying to play silly word games to make it look like you're not until you are backed into a corner.

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No, it's not like that....I completely agree with your point that Atheists will go to hell but I don't agree with your claim of it being injustice.Are you an Atheist?

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3771504' date='Jul 13 2011, 05:24 AM']Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.[/quote]
[quote name='Magmorph' post='3771622' date='Jul 13 2011, 08:16 AM']Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?[/quote]
Except in reality people aren't sent to eternal torture in hell. If God is loving he wouldn't subject anyone to that.
Think about it. "Hell" is the grave; the state of being dead. Jesus was dead, so he went to the grave, the same as other humans. He was perfect and did not sin at all, so for him to go to the same place as people are believed to be tortured forever would be a massive failing of justice.

[quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3771993' date='Jul 13 2011, 02:06 PM']

So why not just punish them by denying them existence instead of by treating them as evil?

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Everyone has free will so the person will decide whether he wants a righteous life or a life which is useless.[/quote]

So you actually believe anyone who doesn't believe is useless? I hope you're enjoying the useless inventions and discoveries that are making your life better, longer, healthier and happier made by those useless people.

But again all you are doing is agreeing with my point. EDIT, while trying to play silly word games to make it look like you're not until you are backed into a corner.

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No, it's not like that....I completely agree with your point that Atheists will go to hell but I don't agree with your claim of it being injustice.Are you an Atheist?

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Oh yeah, sorry. It was Pyrmon saying that wasn't the case.

And on me, quite hard to say. Probably more of a naturalistic pantheist though I have a lot more shared values and morals with Atheists than most others. EDIT: A Stoic if you must.

But really you can't see the injustice? Well lets try a little role reversal. For the sake of argument you die and find the Christians where right and you where wrong. You have no way to know this before you die. Apart from not believing the way to the Lord is through Jesus you have lived a perfectly good life. But you're going to hell anyway. Is that justice?

[quote name='ProtoKun7' post='3772061' date='Jul 13 2011, 02:59 PM']Except in reality people aren't sent to eternal torture in hell. If God is loving he wouldn't subject anyone to that.[/quote]

Nope, hell is definitely a place of torment and whaling and the gnashing of teeth. Though not all franchises of Christianity believe it to be a separate place to heaven. For example I was taught that everyone ends up in the presence of God but to those who hate God that would be torture.

EDIT: Well the existence of hell/what it entails thing is going by the mainstream denominations interpretations. I know you can easily interpret that way, but I bet the vast majority of Christians would disagree or even (at the extremes) say you aren't a proper Christian. Same as they would with ThePowerOutage except some would be even more happy to say his religion is not really a form Christianity at all.

So you actually believe anyone who doesn't believe is useless? I hope you're enjoying the useless inventions and discoveries that are making your life better, longer, healthier and happier made by those useless people.

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No I didn't mean that.I meant that people who are sinners and don't believe in God.They have no goal in their life,it pretty much becomes useless even if there is no belief in Afterlife.

Oh yeah, sorry. It was Pyrmon saying that wasn't the case.

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No problem!

And on me, quite hard to say. Probably more of a naturalistic pantheist though I have a lot more shared values and morals with Atheists than most others. EDIT: A Stoic if you must.

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Very briefly can you please explain about pantheism and stoic.Sorry but I am not familiar with these.

But really you can't see the injustice? Well lets try a little role reversal. For the sake of argument you die and find the Christians where right and you where wrong. You have no way to know this before you die. Apart from not believing the way to the Lord is through Jesus you have lived a perfectly good life. But you're going to hell anyway. Is that justice?

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Does Christianity say that the ones who believe in Allah which is very similar or the same as their God will go to hell.
If yes then it will be very disappointing and devastating.
If I am an Atheist than i won't say that I lived a perfectly good life because a perfectly good life can only be judged by the principals laid by the TRUE Religion.
Nearly all Atheists are aware of Religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam.................It is better to follow one instead of following none.As far as Atheists and Polytheists are concerned I think they will go to Hell but still Allah can reward their good deeds if He wants.
For those Atheists who don't know about Islam I have no idea!