Logic behind Christianity?

[quote name='Veho' post='3772399' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:27 PM'][quote name='spinal_cord' post='3772393' date='Jul 13 2011, 07:23 PM']It is a well known fact that inbreeding causes genetic abnormalities.[/quote]
No it doesn't.
[/quote]

OK, I phrased that wrong, the commonness of genetic abnormalities is increased due to lack of variation in the gene pool. Any abnormalities that existed 'back then' would have resulted in most people suffering from such defects within a few generations.

If we were all descended from the the same two people, surely we would all have the same skin colour...

Been reading through this thread... and I'll give my little input into this.

I'm agnostic, I don't believe, but I can't be sure. I'm open minded.
My girlfriend is christian. She calls herself a "modern christian" though, and thing that religion should follow the evolution...
For example, back in the days when the bible was written, they said that God created the earth and the animals and blah blah. Well, they didn't know about the big bang then, which there are scientific evidence of!
However, now that we all know that fact, we could interpret the bible in a different way. Was it God who created the big bang, which lead to earth being created, which lead to animals being created from bacteria and blah blah... did God create evolution?
He created life vs. He created evolution?

Now that is what I could accept as a healthy view on religions, over all... use it to believe, to explain the unexplainable until it actually is explained and proven.
Religion shouldn't stay the same like it was centuries ago, it should follow into the modern era and evolve!

Do you guys see what I'm thinking? Now once again, I don't believe, but if I would it would be like this. If someone tell me that God created the big bang? Sure, that maybe is what happened... I don't know, and until someone proves otherwise, I'll accept that oppinon and won't think anyone is stupid for saying so.
(Like I do think people who denies evolution, denies that earth is as old as it is, etc. are stupid).

Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven? Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?

If so, bearing in mind the tiny amount of time humans stay on earth for and the huge amount of people who seem to end up sending themselves to an eternal torment for some reason or another, it would be kindest to kill children at birth, rather than risk them not accepting God or sinning and ending up in hell (or, depending on which of the billion different views on hell and the bible you hold, being apart from God or at least barred from paradise.)

If not, what kind of God curses innocent babies to an eternity of torture? Actually, don't answer that, the same God who murdered innocent first borns in Egypt I guess.

[quote name='Magmorph' post='3772420' date='Jul 13 2011, 05:38 PM'][quote name='TehSkull' post='3772413' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:34 AM'][quote name='Magmorph' post='3772403' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:29 PM'][quote name='TehSkull' post='3772395' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:25 AM']
What cowardice. That's like saying you'll never ask a girl out for fear of being turned down.[/quote]
The condition of being rejected by a girl is not a one way ticket to hell. That analogy is pretty horrible.
[/quote]
You're understanding it wrong.

You asked why a parent (or anyone else for that matter) would dare share their beliefs if there was any chance of rejection.
Fear of rejection is no reason to not try, and is just a cowardly excuse.
[/quote]
You lose nothing by them rejecting your God but they get sent to hell. How is it cowardly to not want someone to be sent to hell? I'm basing this off the assumption that if someone had never heard of God he wouldn't send them to hell.
[/quote]
I think (I'm not sure) that if you purposely stop one from being exposed to god or religion that's also a one way ticket to hell.

[quote name='BlueStar' post='3772435' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:43 PM']Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven? Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?[/quote]

Depends. For Catholics a definite yes they go to hell as they where born with the stain of the original sin of Adam.

EDIT: I believe for Muslims their infants definitely got to heaven. There seems to be three schools of thought on the others, they go to hell with their parents, go to heaven, or are stuck between heaven and hell.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772215' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:42 AM'][quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3772165' date='Jul 13 2011, 04:05 PM']Very briefly can you please explain about pantheism and stoic.Sorry but I am not familiar with these.[/quote]
Arrg, how to keep this simple. A naturalistic pantheist believes that the universe is God, and everything in it is part of God. But there is no supernatural element to God.[/quote]
How odd. My view of God is practically the same. The Universe is within God. But I also believe He has a consciousness.



[quote name='Magmorph' post='3772220' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:48 AM'][quote name='Pyrmon' post='3771627' date='Jul 13 2011, 01:24 AM'][quote name='Magmorph' post='3771622' date='Jul 13 2011, 03:16 AM']Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand correctly the meaning of your last sentence. Could you rephrase?
But, yes, a person who lived a good life but never heard of Islam would theoretically go to heaven.
[/quote]
A person who had never heard of Islam would have no idea what that God considers to be a good life. Why would you tell someone about God if they would go to hell for not believing?
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Because, I believe that there are different kinds of heaven. Low Heaven and High Heaven. The case you describe would not necessarily got to High Heaven, so telling them about God may get them the chance to go to High Heaven. Besides, with the advent of the information age, just how is someone supposed to not know about Islam?


[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772301' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:31 PM']I'm really surprised that no one has brought up there can not exist an all knowing, all powerful God and there be free will at the same time.[/quote]
Just how is that?

[quote name='Issac' post='3772426' date='Jul 13 2011, 01:39 PM']Been reading through this thread... and I'll give my little input into this.

I'm agnostic, I don't believe, but I can't be sure. I'm open minded.
My girlfriend is christian. She calls herself a "modern christian" though, and thing that religion should follow the evolution...
For example, back in the days when the bible was written, they said that God created the earth and the animals and blah blah. Well, they didn't know about the big bang then, which there are scientific evidence of!
However, now that we all know that fact, we could interpret the bible in a different way. Was it God who created the big bang, which lead to earth being created, which lead to animals being created from bacteria and blah blah... did God create evolution?
He created life vs. He created evolution?

Now that is what I could accept as a healthy view on religions, over all... use it to believe, to explain the unexplainable until it actually is explained and proven.
Religion shouldn't stay the same like it was centuries ago, it should follow into the modern era and evolve!

Do you guys see what I'm thinking? Now once again, I don't believe, but if I would it would be like this. If someone tell me that God created the big bang? Sure, that maybe is what happened... I don't know, and until someone proves otherwise, I'll accept that oppinon and won't think anyone is stupid for saying so.
(Like I do think people who denies evolution, denies that earth is as old as it is, etc. are stupid).[/quote]
I believe in evolution and the big bang. I believe it was all orchestrated by God. And it's all backed up by my Scripture too!

[quote name='BlueStar' post='3772435' date='Jul 13 2011, 01:43 PM']Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven? Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?

If so, bearing in mind the tiny amount of time humans stay on earth for and the huge amount of people who seem to end up sending themselves to an eternal torment for some reason or another, it would be kindest to kill children at birth, rather than risk them not accepting God or sinning and ending up in hell.

If not, what kind of God curses innocent babies to an eternity of torture? Actually, don't answer that, the same God of the bible who murdered innocent first borns in Egypt I guess.[/quote]
Depending on the school of thought, in Islam, a human does not reach full spiritual maturity before age 40. People who die before that are granted a free ticket to Low Heaven and, depending on how they lived their lives, might go to High Heaven.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772450' date='Jul 13 2011, 05:54 PM'][quote name='BlueStar' post='3772435' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:43 PM']Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven? Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?[/quote]

Depends. For Catholics a definite yes they go to hell as they where born with the stain of the original sin of Adam.
[/quote]
Now that's unfair.

The way I see it, almost everyone in the world is going to hell. The amount of religions that banish you to hell for either not believing or believing but not accepting or just plain not knowing, means that all of those people including everyone who follows every other religion is doomed to hell. Therefore hell must be infinitely larger than heaven. Again, I see no logical reason to follow a religion.

[quote name='BobTheJoeBob' post='3772455' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:56 PM'][quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772450' date='Jul 13 2011, 05:54 PM'][quote name='BlueStar' post='3772435' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:43 PM']Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven? Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?[/quote]

Depends. For Catholics a definite yes they go to hell as they where born with the stain of the original sin of Adam.
[/quote]
Now that's unfair.
[/quote]

Lots of things about religion seems unfair. ;_;

[quote name='Magmorph' post='3772420' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:38 PM'][quote name='TehSkull' post='3772413' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:34 AM'][quote name='Magmorph' post='3772403' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:29 PM'][quote name='TehSkull' post='3772395' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:25 AM']
What cowardice. That's like saying you'll never ask a girl out for fear of being turned down.[/quote]
The condition of being rejected by a girl is not a one way ticket to hell. That analogy is pretty horrible.
[/quote]
You're understanding it wrong.

You asked why a parent (or anyone else for that matter) would dare share their beliefs if there was any chance of rejection.
Fear of rejection is no reason to not try, and is just a cowardly excuse.
[/quote]
You lose nothing by them rejecting your God but they get sent to hell. How is it cowardly to not want someone to be sent to hell? I'm basing this off the assumption that if someone had never heard of God he wouldn't send them to hell.
[/quote]
It's cowardly to not tell someone about God. You asked "Why would you tell anyone if there was any chance of them rejecting it?"

Stop messing with my head.

I believe for Muslims their infants definitely got to heaven. There seems to be three schools of thought on the others, they go to hell with their parents, go to heaven, or are stuck between heaven and hell.

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Any infant whether he is a Christian,a Jew or A Muslim will directly go to Paradise.

they go to hell with their parents

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are stuck between heaven and hell.

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This seems odd.Is this from any Hadith?

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3772454' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:56 PM'][quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772215' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:42 AM'][quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3772165' date='Jul 13 2011, 04:05 PM']Very briefly can you please explain about pantheism and stoic.Sorry but I am not familiar with these.[/quote]
Arrg, how to keep this simple. A naturalistic pantheist believes that the universe is God, and everything in it is part of God. But there is no supernatural element to God.[/quote]
How odd. My view of God is practically the same. The Universe is within God. But I also believe He has a consciousness.[/quote]

That's where it gets tricky. A lot would say the universe has a soul. I would believe that in a little way each person is part of Gods consciousness, and the whole of human society is a much bigger, tiny part of that consciousness. We are the universe trying to understand itself.

Besides, with the advent of the information age, just how is someone supposed to not know about Islam?

Click to expand...

Well there are still tribes out there who have had no contact with outsiders ever, or for generations, or maybe only 1 or 2 visitors a generation. And I thought a full understanding was needed, not just hearing of?

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772301' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:31 PM']I'm really surprised that no one has brought up there can not exist an all knowing, all powerful God and there be free will at the same time.

Click to expand...

Just how is that?[/quote]

He knows your choices before you will make them, and set up the universe in such a way you where bound to make those choices. You can't make a choice different to what he saw or he wouldn't be all knowing and all powerful.

And then he's definitely not fair and just because he punishes you for doing things he made you do.

I believe in evolution and the big bang. I believe it was all orchestrated by God. And it's all backed up by my Scripture too!

Click to expand...

There's no belief needed for evolution, it's demonstrable fact. And the whole lot? Including human origins? And anyone who brings up "its only a theory" are getting smacked in the face with my complete OED with a bookmark at the relevant entry.

I totally agree you can be religious and rational, and that there isn't any conflict between unless you make one, but every time someone makes claims like that it seems to be based on wild interpretations you wouldn't allow for a part you weren't using as a proof of science in your scripture. Such as when trying to show there's modern embryology in there. Then you point out that's exactly what Aristotle said about it and they start arguing that the Koran doesn't say what Galen did?? And for someone who isn't arguing for creationism that sort of thing is very rare.

I'd personally say there can be no science in a book written at least 6 hundred years before science started to truly exist.

EDIT:
[quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3772504' date='Jul 13 2011, 07:28 PM']This seems odd.Is this from any Hadith?[/quote]

Apparently so. I'm trying to find a decent online reference to check though. I did get that overview from a very pro Islam site. Though I generally try to get my information on this sort of thing from more neutral places.

But, it does seem the "in hell with their parents" bit was an old argument that got declared false?

[quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3772504' date='Jul 13 2011, 02:28 PM']

I believe for Muslims their infants definitely got to heaven. There seems to be three schools of thought on the others, they go to hell with their parents, go to heaven, or are stuck between heaven and hell.

Click to expand...

Any infant whether he is a Christian,a Jew or A Muslim will directly go to Paradise.
[/quote]

Then logically, the most merciful and loving thing would be to kill any and all Christian, Jewish, or Muslim infants before they risk losing their access to Paradise, and before they have to experience decades of life in this flawed and terrible world.

Edit: But because any rational person isn't this deluded, nobody should kill any infants under normal circumstances.

Personally i think that you should research various religions and thoroughly look at each one and then decide what religion would suit you best or even the one that makes the most sense to you.

Such as when trying to show there's modern embryology in there. Then you point out that's exactly what Aristotle said about it and they start arguing that the Koran doesn't say what Galen did?? And for someone who isn't arguing for creationism that sort of thing is very rare.

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Again you are using the same argument which trolleydave used............What is your problem with embryology in Quran,it is valid and as far as Galen and Aristotle are concerned....their discovered Embryology is quite different.

Here:
http://ru-ru.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=11...2&topic=109

If this does not satisfy you then look here(a more detailed comparison):
http://www.quranicstudies.com/articles/med...embryology.html

I'd personally say there can be no science in a book written at least 6 hundred years before science started to truly exist.

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It was written in the Holy Quran about more than 1400 years ago(FACT).

As far as religion, I believe the most powerful* object in whatever existence can have the title of god. *what is powerful is subjective, but I would say something that is greater than everything else.

However, lets be logical, there is nothing more I can infer on this object and any books/masses/any other details would be speculating and not fact. If by chance this object coincides with a TRUE religion (which could be none out today), then who is to say I didn't believe in that god and deserve to go to whatever place after death (if there is a place).

[quote name='bsfmtl123' post='3772551' date='Jul 13 2011, 07:59 PM']

Such as when trying to show there's modern embryology in there. Then you point out that's exactly what Aristotle said about it and they start arguing that the Koran doesn't say what Galen did?? And for someone who isn't arguing for creationism that sort of thing is very rare.

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Again you are using the same argument which trolleydave used............What is your problem with embryology in Quran,it is valid and as far as Galen and Aristotle are concerned....their discovered Embryology is quite different.[/quote]

And embryologists disagree. (EDIT: Except for Keith Moore who suddenly decided it after converting to Islam, and pretended he converted beforehand.) They don't agree that the Koran is right on that matter and they don't agree that it's any different from Aristotle's descriptions. Come on, show me one single point in development where a human being is a skeleton with no flesh on it?

Oh and do mountains stop earthquakes?

I'd personally say there can be no science in a book written at least 6 hundred years before science started to truly exist.

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It was written in the Holy Quran about more than 1400 years ago(FACT).

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No the Koran meant it exactly 100% as it was written. And it was wrong. Does it mention evolution? Did the earth exist before the Sun? Matter before light? If you allow interpretation here you must allow it everywhere in the Koran.

[quote name='BobTheJoeBob' post='3772455' date='Jul 13 2011, 07:56 PM'][quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772450' date='Jul 13 2011, 05:54 PM'][quote name='BlueStar' post='3772435' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:43 PM']Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven? Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?[/quote]

Depends. For Catholics a definite yes they go to hell as they where born with the stain of the original sin of Adam.
[/quote]
Now that's unfair.
[/quote]

It's not fair because it's not true. It's been mentioned earlier that people unaware of the gospel, and thus of their Original Sin shall be judged by means of The Natural Law. Non-believers are not automatically sent to hell, that's a retarded idea of zelaous priests that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith whatsoever.

A child that dies before it's even capable of commiting sin applies to this principle, as it does not understand the gospel. That said, it's also too young to commit any sin at all. Thus, it goes to heaven. If it was baptised before death, the "issue" is actually non-existant - baptising cleans off the Original Sin.

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3772580' date='Jul 13 2011, 08:17 PM']It's not fair because it's not true. It's been mentioned earlier that people unaware of the gospel, and thus of their Original Sin shall be judged by means of The Natural Law. Non-believers are not automatically sent to hell, that's a retarded idea of zelaous priests that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith whatsoever.[/quote]

And I guess Popes have nothing to do with the Catholic faith as well? In you interpretation it's not true but by your own declerations of what you believe you aren't a Catholic.

A child that dies before it's even capable of commiting sin applies to this principle, as it does not understand the gospel. That said, it's also too young to commit any sin at all. Thus, it goes to heaven. If it was baptised before death, the "issue" is actually non-existant - baptising cleans off the Original Sin.

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Yes but if it didn't have a baptism before it died? And come on, this is the church that won't allow stillborn babies to be buried properly because they aren't alive yet but won't allow abortion of even contraception because it's killing a human.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3772637' date='Jul 13 2011, 09:56 PM'][quote name='Foxi4' post='3772580' date='Jul 13 2011, 08:17 PM']It's not fair because it's not true. It's been mentioned earlier that people unaware of the gospel, and thus of their Original Sin shall be judged by means of The Natural Law. Non-believers are not automatically sent to hell, that's a retarded idea of zelaous priests that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith whatsoever.[/quote]

And I guess Popes have nothing to do with the Catholic faith as well? In you interpretation it's not true but by your own declerations of what you believe you aren't a Catholic.

A child that dies before it's even capable of commiting sin applies to this principle, as it does not understand the gospel. That said, it's also too young to commit any sin at all. Thus, it goes to heaven. If it was baptised before death, the "issue" is actually non-existant - baptising cleans off the Original Sin.

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Yes but if it didn't have a baptism before it died? And come on, this is the church that won't allow stillborn babies to be buried properly because they aren't alive yet but won't allow abortion of even contraception because it's killing a human.
[/quote]

It's not my own fantasy by no means. Provide me sufficient ammout of excerpts saying that a child which died before being baptised is sure to go to hell, much like I provided you with excerts that such a person shall not earlier in the thread. Like it was said, Jesus as Judge is entirely entitled to make exceptions in "Special Cases", and I'd say this would be a special case indeed.

Contraception is an open subject in the catholic church even as we speak. Abortion is obviously killing a person, contraception like condoms and such... not so much. The very idea of contraception wasn't even "there" yet when religious texts were being written, hence the only real "text" I could apply here is the text about Onan's Sin, which was about onanism (masturbation) in the sense of wasting semen being a sin, however we all know that it's obselete by hundreds of years.

It all goes down to your own conscience, really.