Is time fixed?

Such that your future is already pre-determined?

A friend brought up this question the other day and I have brainstormed through ideas.

Since time has this very clever way of working through a relationship with the past, present, and future; I decided a good start to approach this would be to try and define this relationship. The best relationship I came up with is that the future is bridged to the present and then things in the present are again bridged to the past. It's pretty obvious but the relationship between these concepts are Future ----> Present ----> Past.

Working from this:
Future ----> Present ----> Past

I decided to think about why I am posting this blog now, it is because I just got into the discussion with a friend. Why did I get into the discussion with my friend, because she asked the question if I thought things were fixed in time. Why did she ask that question, probably because some arbitrary event A led her to asking that question.

Then I formulated a hypothesis, everything we do in the present is some way formulated (or a better term, is influenced) by something of the past. Since we already have some kind of mapping how the future eventually falls into the present, this hypothesis can then raise an extension to everything in the future is influenced by something in the past (where present will eventually be kicked into the past).

In other words, let event_A be the action you are doing now; there exist an event_A-1 that has lead to event_A. The same induction follows through such that there exists an event_A-2 that leads to event_A-1 ... All the way back to there exists an event_1 that leads to event_A-(A-2) or Event_2. In summary, every event has been lead from event_1.

What is event 1?
While event_1 can have some speculation, it is not important although some may argue it is the creation of the universe or the very beginning of time. It is not important because whether it was defined or not would still show significance how everything is derived from one point and creates a linearity line of progression through the events of time and a subset, your life. My friend proceeded to ask the question or random occurrences (such that what if you did something random, how can that bridge off an event) or what if someone can utilize this linear pattern and alter events.

I will begin with the second question, what if someone realizes this linear pattern and tries to alter events.
The only argument I could formulate is an arbitrary event B would lead up to the fact you are trying to realize the pattern. Since arbitrary event B falls in the linearity of these events, an event to try to change the pattern will only continue to have a linear pattern (such that it could have been pre-determined to make that choice to try and alter the pattern thus not really going against it).

Now the true question, randomality.
The next argument was that if I asked you to pick a or b, you have choice to pick one at random, you can either pick a or b or even mix it up and pick both or none. However, once again, this falls in chain with the events, what is the reason why you are picking a or b, what is the reason why I asked you to pick a or b and ... The true question is it so random? If you were to 'randomly' draw a number out of the hat, the number you pick may seem random, but everything is based on position in a way so it is not random at all. Someone with enough brain power can throw a bunch of numbers in a hat and pick the numbers in a linear order on purpose when it may seem random. The only speculation that can be seen is that random is just an illusion. The reason why someone would pick a or b is not at all random, and there may be some unconscious reasoning behind why a or b.

Another supporting argument to back that up is if you could ask the first human being to pick a or b, what response would you get? Based on they can't communicate, you would expect maybe a different response then a or b. Which shows that there can exist an event C that leads to someone to pick either a or b.

---

Conclusion:

Bridging off of the illusion of randomality (some people who do program would know random numbers aren't as random as you would think), I drew to the conclusion that free-will is an illusion. The reason is because we have many different options we can use to do at any second (which throws up this illusion) but with the hypothesis that everything is influenced by a past event, the options we have chosen in the present is because of some influence of the past either consciously or subconsciously and that things are fixed overall.

I know many people do not want to hear this and from this may induce into comments such as "You're wrong {insert invalid argument}"

What does everyone else think?

Comments

I am inclined to think like most people when they analyze time, you are going with existing data. The problem is, you're coming up with a theory based on what you have, and what you can guess based on that. Time being linear is a result of a mortal lifespan. We're born, we age, we die. The whole time concerned about what we recall as the past, what we "know" as the present, and what we think of as the future. Whether fate is predestined or not, a simple human doesn't, and can't know. We have limited scope in our design. We think as far as the universe notably affects us. We don't have any way of knowing what else the universe holds. That said... You made a fine blog with available data, but true or false is impossible to tell given we have too little in the way of facts, and too much in the way of the human analytical mind.
 
That was pretty much what my friend and I came to the conclusion to last night. We got into an intense debate where she thought things were free-willed and I came up with whats in the blog and we just ended it saying we simply cannot grasp or test anything we are saying.

Everything in the blog was formulated by everything we do has some influence by something of the past, do you know any counter arguments for that? (I realize that finding a counter argument and there exists a counter argument are a world apart from each other)
 
if you have a gun in your hand and you are pointing it at your head, its your choice if you want to pull the trigger or not
 
[quote name='CrimzonEyed' post='3002511' date='Jul 24 2010, 09:59 PM']if you have a gun in your hand and you are pointing it at your head, its your choice if you want to pull the trigger or not[/quote]
BUT something might have influenced your choice which in turn was influenced by something, when in the end it turns out all of it was fixed. I'm using OP's argument here. Not sure if I got the message across right. :P
 
If you consider an action influenced by a past event the lack of free will, you're not looking at the right scope. The way your hypothesis is would imply that everything had fate the instant time began, which I agree; however, this is not the definition of free-will.
 
[quote name='BobTheJoeBob' post='3002520' date='Jul 24 2010, 11:08 PM'][quote name='CrimzonEyed' post='3002511' date='Jul 24 2010, 09:59 PM']if you have a gun in your hand and you are pointing it at your head, its your choice if you want to pull the trigger or not[/quote]
BUT something might have influenced your choice which in turn was influenced by something, when in the end it turns out all of it was fixed. I'm using OP's argument here. Not sure if I got the message across right. :P
[/quote]

didn't understand "OP's" but i think i know what you mean. I'm one of those who would never commit suicide, why? because suicide is the most cowardly someone can do, only fleeing from all problems and so on.

If someone was standing right in front of me threatening someone dear to me with a gun, and told me to shot myself to spare that persons life, i would rather try shot the guy threatening my dear person than shot myself.

If i was to shot myself, would my dear person be happy about it? would he/she be able to bear that? i know i wouldn't.

(there was something more i was going to ad, but i forgot it)
 
[quote name='Defiance' post='3002540' date='Jul 24 2010, 03:24 PM']If you consider an action influenced by a past event the lack of free will, you're not looking at the right scope. The way your hypothesis is would imply that everything had fate the instant time began, which I agree; however, this is not the definition of free-will.[/quote]
So, since the dawn of the universe, you think everything that existed already had a predetermined death date?


To answer the topic: no. I don't think time is "God."

It's impossible to prove or disprove this, however. So, just as someone who agrees with it can't give any evidence, I also cannot give any evidence on why I disagree.

The main reason I disagree is because I think predestination in any form is ridiculous.
 
Free will is still the illusion at that point. According to the blogger's argument, whatever past influences brought you to the point will determine its outcome. Freely choosing is just a symptom of a lifetime of experiences.
 
You know that theory, where we all have alternate/parallel universe?

I saw this on alan wake. I hink the guy was talking about quantum mechanics.

Its like when you pull the gun trigger,

there can be 2 things that will happen

you die
or
you live

well then, pull the trigger and let the bullet blast out your head, You are now dead.

Suppose you pull the trigger and nothing happens, you are now alive.

I beleive that both of this 2 events happens, but on different universe or so. Kind of like the zelda timeline.

Recap: I think time is linear, but has many different strands representing any choice/decision/event in our life.

Well, what should i know, im only human. but I suppose a gay version of me is thinking about me today somewhere, in an alternate universe.
 
Whether our destiny is pre-determined or not really doesn't matter.
If we can shape our destiny, we will.
If we can simply follow our destiny, we'd never notice because it would feel like we were shaping our destiny anyways.

Sorry if I didn't answer fully/properly.
I sorta just read the initial question and answered, skimming the rest of the post(s).
 
[quote name='jan777' post='3002577' date='Jul 24 2010, 04:46 PM']You know that theory, where we all have alternate/parallel universe?

I saw this on alan wake. I hink the guy was talking about quantum mechanics.

Its like when you pull the gun trigger,

there can be 2 things that will happen

you die
or
you live

well then, pull the trigger and let the bullet blast out your head, You are now dead.

Suppose you pull the trigger and nothing happens, you are now alive.

I beleive that both of this 2 events happens, but on different universe or so. Kind of like the zelda timeline.

Recap: I think time is linear, but has many different strands representing any choice/decision/event in our life.

Well, what should i know, im only human. but I suppose a gay version of me is thinking about me today somewhere, in an alternate universe.[/quote]

The theory is more along the lines of an infinite line of universes. Every possible outcome in every situation does happen. In one universe you were a straight A Student. In the next one because you ate glue as a child, and made yourself retarded, you barely got by with "C"s. With this theory you get an infinite ever expanding number of universes. Thus creating an infinite multiverse. It's a cute theory, but again... only a theory.
 
[quote name='BobTheJoeBob' post='3002520' date='Jul 24 2010, 11:08 PM'][quote name='CrimzonEyed' post='3002511' date='Jul 24 2010, 09:59 PM']if you have a gun in your hand and you are pointing it at your head, its your choice if you want to pull the trigger or not[/quote]
BUT something might have influenced your choice which in turn was influenced by something, when in the end it turns out all of it was fixed. I'm using OP's argument here. Not sure if I got the message across right. :P
[/quote]

That's exactly what I mean. The choice you choose whether or not to pull the trigger would ultimately be made up of previous events before it. It doesn't have to be even as drastic as pulling the trigger to end a life, it could be whether you pick bottle 1, 2, ..., or 16 from a pack of bottles. You may subconsciously pick the closest one due to the fact that you believe it would be easier to pick the closest one.

[quote name='Uncle FEFL' post='3002563' date='Jul 24 2010, 11:37 PM'][quote name='Defiance' post='3002540' date='Jul 24 2010, 03:24 PM']If you consider an action influenced by a past event the lack of free will, you're not looking at the right scope. The way your hypothesis is would imply that everything had fate the instant time began, which I agree; however, this is not the definition of free-will.[/quote]
So, since the dawn of the universe, you think everything that existed already had a predetermined death date?


To answer the topic: no. I don't think time is "God."

It's impossible to prove or disprove this, however. So, just as someone who agrees with it can't give any evidence, I also cannot give any evidence on why I disagree.

The main reason I disagree is because I think predestination in any form is ridiculous.
[/quote]


This is where I throw in an opinion vs the obvious. While the future may be pre-determined, no one in our realistic existence can 100% predict the future. There may not even be a 100% the next second will past (maybe an explosion of the universe will happen in the next half second and we will all die in the next .750 of a second, maybe an unknown force). Since no one in our realistic reality can predict the future, we can assume we have the illusion of free will and thus may as well believe we have free will.
 
[quote name='GreatCrippler' post='3002582' date='Jul 25 2010, 06:49 AM'][quote name='jan777' post='3002577' date='Jul 24 2010, 04:46 PM']You know that theory, where we all have alternate/parallel universe?

I saw this on alan wake. I hink the guy was talking about quantum mechanics.

Its like when you pull the gun trigger,

there can be 2 things that will happen

you die
or
you live

well then, pull the trigger and let the bullet blast out your head, You are now dead.

Suppose you pull the trigger and nothing happens, you are now alive.

I beleive that both of this 2 events happens, but on different universe or so. Kind of like the zelda timeline.

Recap: I think time is linear, but has many different strands representing any choice/decision/event in our life.

Well, what should i know, im only human. but I suppose a gay version of me is thinking about me today somewhere, in an alternate universe.[/quote]

The theory is more along the lines of an infinite line of universes. Every possible outcome in every situation does happen. In one universe you were a straight A Student. In the next one because you ate glue as a child, and made yourself retarded, you barely got by with "C"s. With this theory you get an infinite ever expanding number of universes. Thus creating an infinite multiverse. It's a cute theory, but again... only a theory.
[/quote]

Yes Yes! that was the term.

LOL i had a hard time remembering it so i went with alternate/ parallel universes.

In alan wake, this guy had a machine that would force the gun to not kill him everytime he pulled the trigger. But shit happens and a student pulls out the plug. THen he test out the gun again.
 
[quote name='jan777' post='3002593' date='Jul 24 2010, 03:53 PM']
In alan wake, this guy had a machine that would force the gun to not kill him everytime he pulled the trigger. But shit happens and a student pulls out the plug. THen he test out the gun again.
[/quote]
Dude MGS2 already did that (very similar to it).
 
[quote name='Uncle FEFL' post='3002563' date='Jul 24 2010, 06:37 PM'][quote name='Defiance' post='3002540' date='Jul 24 2010, 03:24 PM']If you consider an action influenced by a past event the lack of free will, you're not looking at the right scope. The way your hypothesis is would imply that everything had fate the instant time began, which I agree; however, this is not the definition of free-will.[/quote]
So, since the dawn of the universe, you think everything that existed already had a predetermined death date?


To answer the topic: no. I don't think time is "God."

It's impossible to prove or disprove this, however. So, just as someone who agrees with it can't give any evidence, I also cannot give any evidence on why I disagree.

The main reason I disagree is because I think predestination in any form is ridiculous.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that God is time, nor did I ever mention him.. Fate does not always have to be associated with religion.

Anyway, what I am saying is that, depending on how you look at it, the fate of everything in existence would be determined right at the moment time began, because everything that happens was influenced by something of the past. As long as time exists, everything that interacts with it was associated someway with something in the past.
 
[quote name='Defiance' post='3002908' date='Jul 24 2010, 07:08 PM']I'm not saying that God is time, nor did I ever mention him.. Fate does not always have to be associated with religion.[/quote]
I actually didn't intend to reference religion. I meant it be an All Powerful Being. "The Creator," if you will. It doesn't have to be the Christian or any other religions' god.

Anyway, what I am saying is that, depending on how you look at it[...]
Yeah, in the incredibly simplistic and almost useless sense that everything that exists comes to an end.

[Depending on how you look at it], the fate of everything in existence would be determined right at the moment time began, because everything that happens was influenced by something of the past. As long as time exists, everything that interacts with it was associated someway with something in the past
Using the PAST to interpret the UNDENIABLE FATE of the future is...stupid. Scientists don't say "Oh yeah, there was the meteor that killed all the dinosaurs, therefore, twenty-thousand years later, we WILL die the exact same way."

Replace the scientist with time. Yeah, it still doesn't make any damn sense does it?

Everything you do connects to something else you do, regardless of time. If I move my right foot first, I will undoubtedly move my left next, right? If I commit murder, I will be searched for and immediately arrested when found, correct? Time doesn't exactly matter. It only differentiates from what happened before, what's happening now, and what can happen later, NOT what will happen later.


EDIT: Very minor grammar fixes.

EDIT2: Changes to make it easier to read.
 
[quote name='Defiance' post='3002908' date='Jul 25 2010, 03:08 AM'][quote name='Uncle FEFL' post='3002563' date='Jul 24 2010, 06:37 PM'][quote name='Defiance' post='3002540' date='Jul 24 2010, 03:24 PM']If you consider an action influenced by a past event the lack of free will, you're not looking at the right scope. The way your hypothesis is would imply that everything had fate the instant time began, which I agree; however, this is not the definition of free-will.[/quote]
So, since the dawn of the universe, you think everything that existed already had a predetermined death date?


To answer the topic: no. I don't think time is "God."

It's impossible to prove or disprove this, however. So, just as someone who agrees with it can't give any evidence, I also cannot give any evidence on why I disagree.

The main reason I disagree is because I think predestination in any form is ridiculous.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that God is time, nor did I ever mention him.. Fate does not always have to be associated with religion.

Anyway, what I am saying is that, depending on how you look at it, the fate of everything in existence would be determined right at the moment time began, because everything that happens was influenced by something of the past. As long as time exists, everything that interacts with it was associated someway with something in the past.
[/quote]


That's exactly where I was going at. If everything is influenced by some event in the past then someway everything would be determined and thus fixed. For example, if you let a drop of water roll down your hand. The water has a ton of combinations on which way to roll and eventually fall off your hand. However, the one choice the water actually does roll of your hand is influenced by whatever happened before it (any initial velocity, sloped surface, the way your blood moves, directions of hairs ... ultimately the path of this drop of water is determined by previous events).
 
[quote name='Zetta_x' post='3003918' date='Jul 25 2010, 09:25 AM']That's exactly where I was going at. If everything is influenced by some event in the past then someway everything would be determined and thus fixed. For example, if you let a drop of water roll down your hand. The water has a ton of combinations on which way to roll and eventually fall off your hand. However, the one choice the water actually does roll of your hand is influenced by whatever happened before it (any initial velocity, sloped surface, the way your blood moves, directions of hairs ... ultimately the path of this drop of water is determined by previous events).[/quote]
Er, it's called physics. Water isn't going to roll the opposite way of the slope (ie, "uphill"). It's not an event chain-reaction phenomena, it's a simple physical property of water. Not just water, but ALL liquids.

A spacecraft doesn't defy gravity due to past events. All it does is provide more power and speed than the gravity of Earth has in order to leave the atmosphere.
 
[quote name='Uncle FEFL' post='3004113' date='Jul 25 2010, 07:01 PM']Er, it's called physics. Water isn't going to roll the opposite way of the slope (ie, "uphill"). It's not an event chain-reaction phenomena, it's a simple physical property of water. Not just water, but ALL liquids.[/quote]
No, but it's chaos theory. It can go straight down, down and a bit to the left then right, left, right, right then left then right then right then left, etc.
 

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