Kanji Tatsumi and LGBT Representation in Persona 4


As some of you may have noticed, a certain game has released recently that’s caused quite a stir over its depiction of LGBT people. I haven’t played either Last of Us game, and haven’t followed the story behind the game closely enough to have any thoughts on Neil Druckmann and co., so I’m not gonna talk about them specifically. But the whole situation’s got me thinking about LGBT representation in games, specifically in the context of another game that’s been in the spotlight recently due to a PC port: Persona 4.

I’m in favour of more representation for LGBT people in media, and I think Persona 4 does a great job in this department. But there’s a growing contingent of fans, even though they might be a vocal minority, that have put the game on blast lately for not going far enough. So I want to talk a little about what one of its characters, Kanji Tatsumi, means to me and why I think he’s a terrific example of LGBT representation. I’m hoping framing the discussion in this way will help keep some of the toxicity of the TLOU2 discussion at bay.


Let’s start with the basics—Persona 4 is a game about helping people deal with their repressed emotions. Each dungeon is a physical manifestation of their psyche, and the boss will be their Shadow, a distorted version of how they view the parts of themselves they can’t accept. Kanji’s dungeon is a men’s bathhouse; his Shadow is a lispy, flirtatious man running around in a towel. The message seems fairly obvious: Kanji is a closeted homosexual. But things aren’t as cut and dry as that.

I think this is where a lot of people’s issues with Kanji’s story come from. It feels a little like queerbaiting—teasing a queer character early on to get the attention of fans desperate for LGBT representation, only to backpedal later and say “Don’t worry guys, he’s not really gay!” I understand the frustration at that, but I think dismissing Kanji as a bad LGBT character simply because of it does a massive disservice to the story he tells about the complexity of sexuality.


Kanji’s family owns a textile shop, which leads to Kanji developing a knack for knitting and sewing at a young age. He gets mocked for being too girly and becomes isolated from the world, as neither sex can accept a man with such feminine interests. Partially to reaffirm his masculinity and partially to solidify the wedge between him and the world that rejected him, Kanji adopts an overly tough and brutish persona, replacing people’s contempt for him with fear. But that insecurity over his lack of masculinity stays embedded, and possibly manifests as his confused sexuality.

We first see Kanji’s attraction to men when he meets Naoto Shirogane, a woman who’s presenting as a man at the time. (Whether or not Naoto is another example of queerbaiting is a whole other can of worms I won’t get into.) After discovering she’s a woman, he continues being attracted to her. Of course, the root of his attraction to Naoto is that she’s one of the few people to accept him and make him feel valued or safe. But it leaves the question of his orientation murkier, leading to cries of noncommittal representation being lobbied against the game.


It’s important to note, however, that just because Kanji’s only love interest is female, that doesn’t stop him from being a queer character. Nothing definitive is ever stated about Kanji’s sexuality, and more crucially, Kanji seems just as fervent for answers as his fans. For example, when the prospect of Naoto entering a beauty pageant comes up, putting her in a position where she would dress more traditionally femininely than she normally does, Kanji begs her to do so as it would “clear up a few questions for [him].”

The idea of not understanding your own sexuality may seem alien to some people—whether you’re straight or gay or anywhere in between, you just like what you like, right?—but the complexity and range of feelings present can be hard to navigate as a teenager, especially for those who have had self-doubt instilled in them from isolating experiences as a youth.


Personally speaking, I consider myself mostly straight, as I’ve always had a slight attraction to men since I hit puberty. As silly as it sounds now, the underwhelming nature of that attraction drove me crazy as a kid, as it left me without a comfortable label and identity. Girls caught my attention everywhere I went, yet I couldn’t help but notice—and appreciate—men with some degree of regularity. I didn’t think I was gay, but those pesky thoughts reminded I wasn’t totally straight either. My conception of bisexuality at the time was that it was a purely equal, balanced attraction to either sex, so I couldn’t find any sense of identity there either. I would try to force thoughts into my head, to cut out the unwelcome ones and force myself to be either gay or straight. I didn’t care which one; I just wanted to know where I belonged.

This led to panic and rumination over my sexuality. I’d heard stories of men who wouldn’t come out of the closet until middle age, sometimes having a wife and kids, so I worried that I was gay and would waste much of my life in the closet. Maybe I was gay and I was just trying to suppress my feelings after growing up in a household with four older brothers who were constantly hurling gay jokes, usually at me. Or maybe I was straight and the vague attraction to men was implanted in me from internalizing those jokes. Maybe I was straight and was simply so desperate for acceptance and love that I’d be willing to settle for a man. I realize these ideas are ridiculous, but without any grounding sense of identity back then, I was floundering to simply understand who I was. After all, I’d never seen anyone going through what I was going through, so I must have been the only one. It must just be a problem with my screwy head.

I wish there was a more narratively satisfying conclusion to this story, but after a few years of this, more pressing concerns came up and I simply decided that I was happy to call myself straight and live that way, but to keep my mind open if the opportunity to explore those feelings ever arose. Curiously, as I stopped being so hard on myself about it, those feelings slowly subsided (though never disappeared), until, somewhat recently, a friend came out of the closet to me and all those feelings rushed back to me harder than I’d ever felt them before. After that, though, they’ve waned again. I’d be lying if I said I still didn’t have some lingering frustration at the lack of consistency in my sexuality, but I’m still taking things one day at a time.


I can’t help but wonder, however, if seeing a story like Kanji’s would have helped me back then. Some simple reassurance that things aren’t as easy for everyone as they seem sometimes. Something to let me know it’s okay to not understand yourself, as long as you can accept the answers you find in your own time. I realize there's another side to this coin, that there are gay gamers out there who needed to see someone like Kanji fully embrace his homosexuality and be out and proud, and I empathize with how hard it would be to see him heel turn and, conveniently, unknowingly be attracted to a woman the entire time. Regardless, I think the backlash to his story is a bit overblown, and even reductive to the case for LGBT representation. Sure, I'd love to see a fully out Persona character someday, but to pretend that Kanji doesn't represent the LGBT community is to ignore the huge, complex spectrum of sexuality that’s out there.
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So Silent_Gunner are you saying that the deadnaming of the trans character in Deadly Premonition 2 was acceptable?? When deadnaming has not be acceptable in most places in the world for 20 plus years
 
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@AmandaRose *sighs* Here we go...

Where in my post did I even mention deadnaming? By implying that people should be free to speak their minds, and that people should grow a pair and grow a thicker skin to words and ideas that run contrary to what they at least will publicly say they believe? If words or the ways people speak offend you that hard, it must be really nice to have the privilege of not having to work a physical job where you could die from boxes and/or cases of glass product can possibly come down and pierce and slash you to death or flatten you, or a job where people constantly view you as a freak for wanting to be as productive as possible, let alone a good worker in general.

And besides, deadnaming was a thing 20+ years ago? As in the 90's and 80's? Like, it had an actual legal definition that anyone actually gave a shit about back then in any significant capacity? Because I went through public high school and even two years of a community college and some time spent at a university and never even heard these terms until I heard about them on YT through the usual sources.

Most people only act PC in public where it matters. It's all a fake show of virtue. When they're working in private like what the situation you expressed implies, with others who probably could give a rat's ass about the the victim's identity and more about getting the job done and actually finding the perp before he/she/it (I mean, I don't know much about the games myself. Doesn't it have some horror elements?) hurts someone else, I'm pretty sure that being worried about "deadnaming" and "misgendering" is the last thing on their minds. Not to mention, characters in fiction don't have to be your ideal vision of what a "hero" is or should be. If David was the perfect hero and role model Christians and Jews wanted him to be, he'd never have slept with Bathsheba or have her husband killed in battle along with others who lost their lives in the same battle because he wanted to cover up his sins. But because he was a real human being with real human being problems, he made that mistake, and lost a child because of it, or so the story supposedly goes.

If creators can't use their freedom of speech to create the things they want, or, in anime/manga creators' case, even be able to bring it over here because some simps on REEEEEEEEESetERA want to get offended over every little thing.



I can guarantee you a lot of people who have to work with trans people at work only put up a fake persona that's accepting, and that, once this phase in the US has passed (there's already cases of people "de-transitioning") like the phase with the hippies, Weathermen's Underground and disco in the 70's, and the drug PSAs and the peak of Michael Jackson's career of the 80's, people will be looking back and wondering why the hell they doubted who they were to begin with. So I think, for a lot of people, they are holding out just to keep hold of their damn jobs and are hoping that things will hopefully go back to normal once people, hopefully after learning some lessons about who's truly for them and who isn't after this year, re-adjust their perspectives on what matters in life. You can be all like, "oh..what's the meaning of life? Who am I, really?" all you want when you aren't the one working to pay for things left, right, and center, and also having to manage other things as well. That's the cold, brute force reality for people who do the right thing by going to work, making their own money from their own efforts, and not depending on others to bail them out like a lot of the big corporations were clamoring for even though, given that they only care about the bottom line, you would think they'd be willing to cut costs to support having to change things to adapt to the unusual times you and I live in. Stuff like that is more important than, "Oh, I'm now a man who wants to be a woman," or vice-versa. You couldn't do that if you don't have the money to pay for it if you don't want to go into debt that you have to pay off in a truly fair world!



This is just me speaking my goddamn mind. I don't care if you agree or disagree, but you're going to tell me that these people aren't going to try and get their extremism legalized on either the state or, heaven forbid, the federal level here in the United States of America, land of the free, home of the brave? Like, I know the US isn't all that popular on essentially every messageboard outside of whatever subreddits Reddit hasn't banned at this point that happen to be pro-America or some offshoots of said subreddits, but it's like no one has even stopped to consider how we got to where we are in 2020, how good we do have it, even with things being locked down atm, and even the reasons as to why some cultures are better than others.
 
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Silent_Gunner you want to bring up people who transition back to their birth sex. Well ok then lets looks at that. In 2017 a survey was done into why people transitioned back over 90% of those that took part said it was due to the huge amout of transphobic abuse they were subjected too. So to claim as you did above that people are trans because it is a fad is simply hilariously wrong.

Not to meantion the fact that the figure of people who do de-transition sits at only 1% of the whole trans community. And the fact that most of the people who do de-transition end up regreting the fact they did.


https://www.gendergp.com/evidenced-research-on-detransition-regret-newsnight/
 
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I never said anything specific about de-transitioning myself. I simply said there are cases here and there, and I'd be lying if I said I cared about the details. If you have a dog in that fight, by all means, inform yourself. I know that political lesbianism is a thing, and that you must be pretty fucking desperate to resort to it as an argument or a method to express a point.

I, on the other hand, don't, and you can't get me to really care about it either because I have no desire to transition, or to form long-lasting relationships with people who live the LGBTQIA+ lifestyle. It's not for me. It isn't any of my business what people do in their bedrooms, just as it is no business for people who I don't live with to ask me about what I do in mine, at the end of the day.

What is my business is being able to say what needs to be said or to communicate the point of what I said to someone. If a trangender woman was to get mad that I "deadnamed" her in some emergency where you don't have time to fuck around, I'd look at them as being fucking ridiculous and be like, "I saved your ass, and you want to badmouth me? Really?" Shit like that is where it crosses the line into being our business. I know company policies are usually like, "innocent mistakes are OK," but are they really? Especially when they don't offer due process for accusations of someone violating the harassment policy, if the job training guide on the subject at my current workplace is any indication?

Also, I like that you ignored everything I else I said. I know, I ranted on and on as I have a bad tendency to do, and you just looked for something where I would fuck up, and that's fine. You can act and think you're a hero. Everyone does at some point in their life. But at some point, responsible people eventually realize they're just one person, and realize that, as one person, they'd rather do something they're more passionate about than arguing with a nobody on the Internet who isn't interested in learning anything new, changing their mind, or having an honest discussion.
 
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I like Kanji, but the Crossdressing pageant near the end of October...? Hell no. Not only is the reason behind the four guys participating utterly stupid and bullshit (Yosuke and Teddie signed the girls up for the beauty pageant, so in retaliation the girls signed all four boys - including the player and Kanji, who had nothing to do with Yosuke's and Teddie's plan - up for the crossdressing segment. No-one can get out of it, because the hosting teacher's a flirtatious bitch none of the students like), but since it's forced upon the boys it doesn't exactly convey anything positive.

...The end of October is one of the worst parts of Persona 4, in my opinion; nothing enjoyable there. Could've easily gone without the group-date cafe thing and the pageant.
 
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@AkiraKurusu Honestly, the plot of Persona 4 felt too "silly" for a SMT game. Like, I know there's the Devil Children games and stuff like Jack Bros., and the game does have its moments, especially towards the end, but the way the characters are introduced, along with the actual final boss' mission statement literally being a test, IDK, in terms of atmosphere, was just more slapstistic than Persona 5 and especially Persona 3 and the PS1/PSP entries where it still felt like SMT in a sense.

I really wish that games weren't so expensive nowadays to where ATLUS could have multiple series going on like they did in the 90's/2000's. The Raidou Kuzunoha duology, Digital Devil Saga, Devil Summoner (which I know is technically what the Raidou games are a part of, but the first two games were essentially "SMT meets Persona" more than action-RPG-meets-alternate-history detective vs. The Super Powered Army Corps), the DS sRPGs that I can't remember the name of at the moment, etc..
 
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@eriol33 Ah, so I deciding to test out Xbox emulation on PC as opposed to arguing with you two isn't a choice, eh?

Lifestyles refer to the way a person or group of people live. Like, I could go for the guys...if I wanted to. But seeing as I like a female's delicate touch, voice, and all the things I personally like in a biological woman who identifies for whom there is no difference in her sexual and her gender identity, I simply have no attraction to the same sex. No "Leviticus 18:22 says," or "Romans 1:27 says," just a simple straight shot for the lady of my life, with no desire to have a relationship with multiple women or anything by the time I finally say, "I do."

That being said, due to my being in debt atm, and also because of the COVID lockdowns, I'm doing something very different from usual, in that I'm focused only on making my PC the best it can be now that I got a certain major issue resolved in regards to its performance. My lifestyle could be summed up as, "heterosexual and will be interested in a relationship once I get out of debt and once this whole situation with COVID-19 is put to an end."

As for it being a fad, that's just the pattern I'm seeing atm among people online. I mean, I never have been the kind of guy to be like, "that woman acts so much like a man, that she should just grow a dick, futanari style," myself, but the fact is, if you were to go on a site like debate.org (I know, "not a peer reviewed study," when, let's be real here, studies and statistics in general can only tell us so much anyways. They can't perform a study asking every single American citizen what they think of this and that, and no study could include an entirely accurate representation of everyone in a group), and you look up "Is becoming a trans gender a fad? Or will it die out?," you'll find 75% of people saying that they hope people will return to reality, that it will lose steam in the longrun, and that they think people with transgenderism have mental problems. And while I personally think that's quite an assumption, as someone who was dating a girl who had a trans brother (meaning, he was her sister, but now that he transitioned, he's her brother now), she detailed that, while her brother can be level headed at work, in his private life, he's a lot more unstable than the facade he displayed on the job. I'm talking, like, "ran away from home and attempted suicide" unstable.

You're never gonna get rid of stereotypes 100%. They are a natural part of human behavior and thinking.
 
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eriol33 said:
I love how people think LGBTQIA is "lifestyle"
Is that more letters than usual?
While I can see having little time for the "it's only a choice" crowd (granted I would not care if it was or if people do have it as one) there can be prescribed hivemind/groupthink/ordained group some shack up with. They usually have nice little trademarked flags (I did enjoy seeing the recent bisexual flag copyright/trademark spat), an activist streak and often purport to be the voice of despite occasionally coming out with some utter bollocks, and then probably have a nice internal squabble and split off.

I have then had several conversations with several that had lines to the effect of love the people (possibly literally because... you know) but hate the community.
Basically same as you see anywhere else (fans of certain films*, fans of sports, bands, games in some instances though you also get the generally oblivious...) where some self styled types nominate themselves the voices of something or at least get very loud and may be the face of it to the world.

*I like fight club, I like scarface. What pops into your head?
 
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Silent_Gunner this is not directed at you but what makes me laugh about the thing when people say that trans people have mental health issues is the fact that here in Scotland and in some other countries you have to go through a minimum of two years of evaluation. Then after that you have to prove to 5 different medical experts that you DO NOT have any mental health issues. You must get all 5 to unanimously agree that you don't have a mental health issue at which point you see a sixth and final expert who then decides once again you don't have any mental issues. After that you are still evaluated ipto the day you fully transition. The very fact that people claim I have mental health issues is rather amusing when you consider the fact I have some of the best Doctors in Scotland say that I am not mentally ill.

People are lead to believe by the media and Internet that its easy process to transition I can personally assure you its bloody not.
 
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Well @AmandaRose it sure has been a fad. An easy escape for people not trying to takecare of their lives and must blame something. Calling it dysphoria is so much easier than dealing with the under lying problems. I know a couple of people where it actually been a proper FAD. So sorry, but Tumblr have managed to fuck up the LGBT+ movement for years to come. Twitter people aren't helping either with their silly made up words for freaking everything known to man.
There are proper cases where people are transsexual, but it's been a fad for like the last 5-6 years.
 
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If someone gave you the choice of having a life that is easy, or a life that is more difficult, I can almost guarantee that you would choose the easy one. Being trans is not a "fad" and people aren't just doing it for attention. Trans people are hated, over 50% of trans women suffer sexual abuse at some point in their life and we are even killed just for being who we are. Many of us commit or attempt suicide because of the high levels of abuse we receive.

If you thing people are actually going to subject themselves to the huge level of hate trans people get on a DAILY basis just because its supposedly the cool thing to do you are insane.
 
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what did we gain from LGBT ?

Enchanted Arms has fully out gay guy and he is disgusting to hear and to look at. and yes I am gay hehe unfortunately. we only produced disgusting gay YouTubers. clowns that makes money.
 
In my opinion preserving creative freedom is the most important here.

Video games are also not the right place to look for help if you struggle with your identity or sexuality.
 
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Nobody here has said video games should be a place people look for help.

A video game should be a place where people can escape from the bullshit that happens in the real world. We shouldn't be confronted with the same bullshit that goes on like deadnaming.
 
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I realy can´t see why video games should facilitate a place where people can escape from the bullshit that happens in the real world.
I don´t mind if they do but it shouldn´t be necessary.
 
wow, I never played Kanji's story that far so I guess I saved myself a lot of thought and drama :yaypsp:
I didn't realize there would be that much to write about
 
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