Hacking What is with the CFW Wars?

[xXxSwagnemitexXx]

Can someone explain to me, as unbiased and detailed as they care to, why are people so bothered about using Luma?
I even saw a comment along the lines of "I wouldn't use Luma if it was the only CFW that existed."

What's actually wrong with it?

I'm guessing you saw my thread on "dual booting" then

 

[Joom]

I just wish I could disable the Rosalina menu. I don't want it, and if I did I'd use BootNTR.

Why? What does it impede you from doing? I mean, it seems like a useless commodity to me as well, but I don't see how it's causing any problems. This may just be me, but I haven't experienced a single crash. Every game and application runs without issue.

 

[kuwanger]

Except there's been four (five, technically, but I don't want to chalk up 8.1 as a major release even though it made 8 usable) major Windows releases since XP. People have had an ample amount of time to make the upgrade and learn how to use these new versions of Windows, yet they continue to use XP out of sheer ignorance.

Or, you know, they don't see the need to upgrade and learn the new widget for the sake of upgrading and learning the new widget.

Fear of something breaking during the upgrade just stems from that ignorance. People refuse to read, comprehend, and deduce as they should, and choose to remain ignorant on these subjects, and are therefore unable to make these upgrades without fear.

Funny you should mention that given how many people have had all sorts of issues with Windows 10 and programs breaking--sometimes intentional breaks by Microsoft.

All it takes is following bullet point instructions, and yet people still put their hands on stove eyes. When these things no longer work due to age they complain even more because developers stopped catering to obsolete software. They act like they're owed support for whatever reason, and throw a tantrum when they don't get it because they're so conditioned to be entitled shits that they won't even put forth the effort to support themselves.

Obsolete software like 10 year old games? And honestly, at least in the Windows case they can't "support themselves" in a meaningful sense and use the latest version of Windows. It means, instead, having an XP VM (if you're lucky) or having a whole separate internet disconnected XP system. Now, as far as throwing a tantrum, that's too much. But complaining that MS breaks stuff and simply refuses to support older versions of Windows, even to potential paying customers? Well, that's just stupidity on MS's part at one level. On another, it makes perfect sense for a monopolist who fears little real reprisal and no real alternatives to simply steam forward on whatever their goal of the day is.

Windows is just one example, though. I like how you mentioned that people would have preferred a rolling release update scheme for XP (like what 10 has), yet if anything, Linux distributions should be a shining example of why a rolling release model isn't entirely ideal.

Uh, yea, Windows 10 doesn't have "rolling release update". Nor do most Linux distros. In rolling release, there isn't per se ever really a version number. At best you can produce snapshots as install images every so often. What Windows 10 has is a 6 month service pack which functions as a quasi-fresh install, not unlike Ubuntu's own short term releases. They both have the same fundamental flaw: they do a mass install of new packages/software in one go (often version bumping a bunch of libraries that include potential breakage) which is very much an all-or-none. Unsurprisingly, this means one massive, inconvenient "update" that can make systems unbootable. Nothing about that sounds good.

After so long the entire OS has to be reinstalled because something using new standards is introduced that fucks everything else up because everything else doesn't follow these new standards (the introduction of systemd comes to mind, which resulted in the same kind of bitching we're seeing here).

Uh, no. Nothing about systemd requires a reinstall. The reason people mainly bitch about systemd is because (1) its original scoped purpose to replace sysvinit has ballooned into something massive, (2) its inclusion into several distros as the default seemed driven more by a desire to replace sysvinit than to actually use systemd, and (3) the developers behind systemd are apparently morons who don't even know how a lot of unix and its tools work so are guilty of "Those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer, programmer".

Technology is ever changing and evolving in all sects. I fail to understand how people can't grasp this. They seem to understand that a new iPhone released every fall is the norm, but when it comes to something not force fed down their throats through broadcast commercialism they panic and become irrationally aggressive.

Sure, technology is ever changing and evolving in all sects. It's just clear that a lot of software is like real evolution: random and undirected without plan or purpose. Unsurprisingly that leads to plenty of people (me included) trying to carefully judge software and decide when and where to upgrade or migrate or mitigate risk.

Anyway, I'm drunk and I don't know why I even came to this thread. Everyone here complaining over free shit that enables them to get even more free shit should seriously evaluate themselves. It's just a video game console.

Granted, mostly. To some degree one can take it as complaining to say why "I think Luma would be better if ...". Ie, there's the need for constructive criticism as well. Obviously, the CFW Wars weren't about complaining or criticism. They were us/them, green/blue, striving for supremacy.

More features like not relying on hax payloads, sighax, the ability to create and use third party DSP firmwares, and other general improvements that I can't be bothered to list.

So, of the things you mention, only "third party DSP firmwares" seems like an honestly new, interesting thing. So, what are they and what are they good for? Btw, I realize that under the good a lot of these are good design improvements to a CFW. And merging a lot of features from NTR CFW and others isn't a bad thing. But, then, I rarely if ever used those features. I mean, I feel like someone who's trying to sell me on a new Ferrari when all I ever do is drive to the store. Again, *shrug*

 

[Lariatoooooooooooooooo]

All this free stuff makes me really sad, I better go online and complain about it.

 

[linuxares]

Wars? Oh you mean fanboys trying to do what all fanboys do? For some reason thinking their stuff are better than others?

I can say I have used Luma for I don't know how long. Why I run is it's because it just works. I don't want to fiddle around with my 3DS as I do with my computers and servers. Why I don't wanna fiddle around with my 3DS? Since I play games on it. Simple as that. I also will recommend it to anyone with a 3DS since Aurora seem to have built it on the premise of "It works".

Plus I do have a little softspot for "TuxSH" I mean, Tux! The Linux penguin, how can I not?

 

[8BitWalugi]

Why? What does it impede you from doing? I mean, it seems like a useless commodity to me as well, but I don't see how it's causing any problems. This may just be me, but I haven't experienced a single crash. Every game and application runs without issue.

I've had a couple of crashes, but nothing major. I just want to know why something has to impede me in some way for me to want it to be optional.

Just like the detailed error screen, I don't want to deal with that. I just want CFW that looks and acts like normal 3DS FW, just with those small behind the scenes benefits. There's no issue in wanting choice.

 

[DarthDub]

Just use Luma.

 

[Joom]

Or, you know, they don't see the need to upgrade and learn the new widget for the sake of upgrading and learning the new widget.

Widget? Wut?

Funny you should mention that given how many people have had all sorts of issues with Windows 10 and programs breaking--

PEBKAC

sometimes intentional breaks by Microsoft.

Citation needed.

Obsolete software like 10 year old games? And honestly, at least in the Windows case they can't "support themselves" in a meaningful sense and use the latest version of Windows. It means, instead, having an XP VM (if you're lucky) or having a whole separate internet disconnected XP system. Now, as far as throwing a tantrum, that's too much. But complaining that MS breaks stuff and simply refuses to support older versions of Windows, even to potential paying customers? Well, that's just stupidity on MS's part at one level. On another, it makes perfect sense for a monopolist who fears little real reprisal and no real alternatives to simply steam forward on whatever their goal of the day is.

You should have paid more attention in Marketing 101. Killing XP was a genius move, which made Microsoft billions. It also has nothing to do with being a monopoly, because, y'know, they're not one. Holding the majority of the market share doesn't make one a monopoly in an open market. And yes, 10 year old games are obsolete; at least the ones that are no longer maintained are (and the ones that are have no problems running on the newer versions of Windows).

Uh, yea, Windows 10 doesn't have "rolling release update".

Oh I see, you have no idea what a rolling release model is. See, there's not going to be a Windows 11. Microsoft is just going to forever tack on updates to 10. This is a rolling release model. You're right; there isn't a version number, but there is a build number.

Nor do most Linux distros.

Didn't say they did, but a large amount do.

Unsurprisingly, this means one massive, inconvenient "update" that can make systems unbootable. Nothing about that sounds good.

PEBKAC

Uh, no. Nothing about systemd requires a reinstall.

Let me know when your 7 year old Arch setup gets obliterated by a new init system shoehorned in so hard that it develops a second anus.

So, of the things you mention, only "third party DSP firmwares" seems like an honestly new, interesting thing.

Does anyone else find it hilariously ironic that once sighax finally released the majority of the scene stopped giving a shit? Also, allowing one to develop their own DSP firmware means that homebrew developers could package their own with their games and applications without legal repercussions from Nintendo. The DSP from the 3DS is proprietary and illegal to distribute, and is also required to be dumped to the SD for a lot of homebrew to have working sound. With the ability to develop one's own firmware, distribute it with a release, and have Luma patch it on the fly means more convenience for the end user.

 

[d0k3]

Okay, seeing myself mentioned a few times, I guess I'll add my 2 cents, too.

@Lilith Valentine - you brought up some very good points, but on the other hand I see you writing this:
"Lol, I wouldn't install Luma3DS, even if it was the only CFW."
(in this thread)

It is true that developers of other CFWs got attacked by community members. I've seen it personally happen here and on IRC. Know that I disapprove a lot. Even if you wouldn't use a product (a product that's developed for you, the community, for free, might I add), spamming a thread with "Just use Luma" is not good style at all. I hope some of you - and I'm full aware that's not all of you, by far - read my post and think before they act the next time. You're actively discouraging these devs from perhaps achieving something great. I myself got attacked when I took up D9 development, and see where it got. All I started out were some simple cosmetic changes. @Lilith Valentine - please don't do the same thing that you and I just criticized (refering to that post of yours mentioned above).

Now, I'll also be open in that what I would recommend is the standard setup of Guide -> SafeB9SInstaller -> boot9strap -> Luma 3DS. I may be biased, a tool of mine being in that toolchain, but at the same time I just think that's the easiest, safest and quickest way to setup your console. Things may change at a later time. I myself try to be as open as possible, and from my side, competition is very welcome. See, for example my CTRXplorer project. I personally think CTRXplorer is a pretty decent file manager, which should fullfil almost all of your file management needs. I appreciate that it's still in use (thanks, CTRXplorer users!), but, with me having stopped adding anything new now, the project that I'd personally recommend (at least to keep an eye on) is @Joel16's 3DShell.

Over and out. Be nice to each other. There is no reason for a flamewar.

 

[Joom]

those small behind the scenes benefits

Wouldn't Rosalina technically be one of those? Also, the reason why I feel that it needs to impede upon you is because it's entirely benign. It being there or the lack thereof makes absolutely no difference when it comes to the general experience of the user (hax being the exception, but oh well).

 

[dimmidice]

Some people want different CFW because they're hipsters. They can't use the same things others use, way too boring for them.

 

[The Catboy]

@Lilith Valentine - you brought up some very good points, but on the other hand I see you writing this:
"Lol, I wouldn't install Luma3DS, even if it was the only CFW."
(in this thread)

I would like to defend my comment and simply state that it was suppose to be joke and the joke got carried away. Apparently to the point where it became a massive issue and now went off to a completely different thread.
I could have changed it and I should have worded it better. Thus I will simply state that it was a careless comment on my end and for that, I was wrong. I was also wrong to allow this all to happen based on one comment that was intended to be a joke. I should have stopped the joke when I realized that it stopped being a joke and became something serious. But I let my emotions get the better of me and got heated instead of calm. I am human after all and I can fuck up. Often times I forget just how a big my fuck ups can become or simply forget to stop it when it's gone too far. For that I simply want to say, I didn't mean for it to go this far. I honestly hoped that simply taking myself out of the picture would at least let the thread die down and give me time to clear my thoughts. I cleared my thoughts and realize that I did let my emotions take control. I am sorry for a lot of the things I've said, I've been sitting a lot of issues and I let them get the better of me. I don't hold anything personal towards the Luma team, I do have my gripes towards the community, but that doesn't mean I hate them either.
Same goes for my previous comments. I got upset and let that get too real for me. I wasn't thinking and instead just became a bitch because I was upset over a lot of shit. I let myself get the better of myself. I let what was normally small gripes become the big issue. I can get emotional over stupid stuff because I care way more than I should about these kinds of things.
Simply put, to err is to human. I got myself into this mess by allowing myself to give into my own darkness. Coupled with the reality that I let a joke become something serious. Now we are in a mess that I honestly wish I never started and let drop before it got to nearly the 24 hour mark.
I am sorry guys. I said things I shouldn't have said, I did things I shouldn't done, and I let myself become my own worst enemy.

 

[8BitWalugi]

Wouldn't Rosalina technically be one of those? Also, the reason why I feel that it needs to impede upon you is because it's entirely benign. It being there or the lack thereof makes absolutely no difference when it comes to the general experience of the user (hax being the exception, but oh well).

But I don't want it there. It doesn't provide me with anything and I see no reason for it to not have a toggle option.

Only time I've ever used Rosalina was to open the Homebrew Launcher when I've just finished hacking a 3DS to install FBI. And even then, I was perfectly happy with the old Health & Safety inject. I understand this isn't viable anymore, but why not have an option to turn it off once I'm done with it?

 

[Ryccardo]

In the real world, this is completely infeasible. Every attempt to give noobs something beyond "copy a few files around" has ended in failure.

Maybe we could simply accept that people unwilling to do some research and follow instructions don't deserve fr33 g4m3z

 

[ihaveahax]

But I don't want it there. It doesn't provide me with anything and I see no reason for it to not have a toggle option.

Only time I've ever used Rosalina was to open the Homebrew Launcher when I've just finished hacking a 3DS to install FBI. And even then, I was perfectly happy with the old Health & Safety inject. I understand this isn't viable anymore, but why not have an option to turn it off once I'm done with it?

it's been constantly and repeatedly explained why this is not feasible. disabling the menu is (but I'm not sure if this will happen), disabling rosalina entirely is not. several of the patches luma does are now done by rosalina, instead of the old methods in previous versions and legacy. disabling it is not going to make anything better.

 

[8BitWalugi]

it's been constantly and repeatedly explained why this is not feasible. disabling the menu is (but I'm not sure if this will happen), disabling rosalina entirely is not. several of the patches luma does are now done by rosalina, instead of the old methods in previous versions and legacy. disabling it is not going to make anything better.

That's understandable. I just want to be able to disable opening the menu entirely. I see no real reason to not have that choice, just like the Arm9 exception screen.

 

[ihaveahax]

That's understandable. I just want to beable to disable opening the menu entirely.

the best you can do right now is probably make the button combination something that is very hard to open on accident. saved as of 8.1 so you don't need to do this every reboot.

 

[8BitWalugi]

the best you can do right now is probably make the button combination something that is very hard to open on accident. saved as of 8.1 so you don't need to do this every reboot.

I know that, but it still isn't ideal. It's still 'there', so to speak

 

[adrifcastr]

As I already said in the dual boot thread, Luma is overrated and being handled as the holy grale, I do not agree with that, I still do use and like ReiNand better.

 

[Deleted-406011]

I know that, but it still isn't ideal. It's still 'there', so to speak

If you can't reasonably activate it, then it essentially doesn't exist. This sounds like an irrational personal problem. But more to the point:

If you want a feature, implement it. No one is entitled to any developer serving their every want and whim, regardless of how prominent they might be.