Take-Two takes legal action against reverse engineered re3 & reVC projects

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Back in February 19th, 2021, Take-Two sent DMCA notices to the reverse engineered projects re3 and reVC, (hosted on GitHub). After the takedowns, the project leaders filed a counter-claim, effectively restoring the projects and their whole repositories.

Today, September 2nd, 2021, Take-Two has taken legal action in the state of California, USA, claiming the projects and whole repositories are infringing on the copyrights of their games, Grad Theft Auto III & Grand Theft Auto: Vice City.
Not only is Take-Two suing the main repositories, but also against forks and derivative work (and the devs behind them) that sent the counter-claim back in February, like the PS Vita & Nintendo Switch forks.

The resolution of this case might be one of the biggest legal battles of recent years in terms of gaming, homebrew, hacking and reverse engineering, as other projects that have flourished under reverse engineered premises could be affected in the event of Take-Two winning the case.

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FAST6191

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A clear SLAPP suit, hope T2 gets embarrassed, they must have very dumb lawyers. People saying there is copyrighted/stolen code are wrong. Try to understand the history of unlicensed games, tengen/atari vs nintendo, sony vs bleem, galoob vs nintendo etc.. there is a clear precedent that you can subvert companies licensing requirements as long as you dont distribute modified works and turn a profit. This type of engine wrapper is exactly like a game genie, useless on its own, not a derivative work but combine it with the official (hopefully purchaced) game and you have something better than the original, for personal use.

"unlicensed games"
Some company tries to say our device, our rules, we determine what runs on it.
Courts say nope consumer protections say their device, their rules.

Company tries to include trademark asset in required key for unlocking console.
Court says nope, not a valid use of trademark.

Company tricks trusted party of those making device into sending code that is used to bypass protections (This would be Atari vs Nintendo, nice example of "unclean hands"/privileged information thing I was on about earlier actually).
Company doing the tricking gets slapped for that, though theoretically is allowed to continue were it not for that case.

Company by its own ingeniousness manages to bypass protections (this would be Sega vs Accolade).
Company is told nice one by the courts, carry on if you want. Affirmation of the earlier thing that would have worked if Atari were better engineers.

Galoob vs Nintendo (the game genie case)
Users are indeed allowed to mod code running on their systems without it troubling IP law, and devices to do so can be sold.

Sony and Bleem had two major aspects really.
Generally though this would be where emulation was generally clarified, and arrangements of chips deemed hard to copyright, emulation itself also having substantial non infringing uses even without that (code making, forensics, disabilities, mere use of code you legitimately own aka interoperability that also feeds into hippie whale hugging where you don't want waste if you wanted to go there as well...). Sadly came too late for Bleem that had since run out of money but it is a worthy legacy.

To add on to the list you probably want the various World of Warcraft cases. Mostly that memory and code copying to it/executing in it is part of the normal operation so go do one Blizzard when they tried that on.

All great cases to explore if you want, and right decisions in each of them as far as I am concerned (a rarity in a lot of IP cases and law -- the US has some howlers as far as I am concerned with patents on DNA, patents on software, prior art being basically a non thing in patents, obviousness even more of a non thing in patents, most of the DMCA, copyright extensions... the list goes on).

None of this however says word one about you taking some code that you have no rights to, disassembling it, tweaking it a bit so you can assemble it (or compile it), maybe adding a few comments and releasing that as a whole functional piece of code to the world as being a legit act and not in stark contravention of derived works preclusions. As far as I am aware (and it is certainly the assumption TakeTwo/Rockstar are operating under) this is not a wrapper that acts as an interpreter/bridge/hypervisor/emulator/abstraction layer between the code, a different host machine and its original assets, or a legit recreation of the code that happens to support the original assets in their original format. It is an oh so tempting and effective method of quickly and with minimal resources (both in the project and destination machine) achieving interoperability and much more besides (see list of improvements seen for Mario 64 for but a small list of possibilities there) but I can see no way of this being allowed and still having any kind of usable copyright apply to code in any way whatsoever.
Now if some legal/politico types (or possibility military/national security -- see history of encryption, and probable future of unregulated cryptocurrencies if "think of the children" does not get there first) decided to get a bit uppity and try to block decompilation technology (see also "hacking tools", though the EU courts and lawmakers tend to be more fond of that one and get slapped down hard as well) then I would be most upset and consider that a breach of good sense, though as it would also effectively vanquish coding, the security industry and such overnight then I am not predicting it from more than mouths of a clueless politician that does not know his arse from an atx power supply.

"as long as you dont distribute modified works and turn a profit"
That is certainly an aggravating factor, and one that will see lawyers perk up (money in from business being something you can take to have in turn funded the case, as opposed to a bunch of broke bedroom coders that you will struggle to collect from), but not the ruling or consideration of any of that. Indeed the Galoob thing was seeing them get the right to distribute something to modify a work and gain profits while at it.
 
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EvilJagaGenius

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This brings the CSE2 decompilation project to mind, which still isn't (officially) available. I agree this is certainly an important case, almost all video game preservation depends on reverse engineering in some form. It doesn't seem like Take-Two has a lot of legal ground to stand on here, alongside straight-up lying in their accusations... it seems they have little more ground than Nicalis had, which is to say none. Still, I'm hoping the case is treated fairly, the outcome decided based on law, not money.
 

FAST6191

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So if you jump through some small hoops to get the same end result, RE is legal, but if you don't, it's not. Right.
In any case, I doubt this code will ever disappear now, and I doubt T2 is going to win this.
Recreating something from observation and recreating it from having the code in front of you (albeit in a diminished form) are two radically different things (especially if you want to get 1:1 equivalence from observation and non code asset format analysis for a game), not a small hoop or something that effectively makes it pointless, hard to showcase the "bad one" as having happened or otherwise unenforceable.

I doubt the code will disappear either (this is far from the first time some company has gone after something open source; I met it more than 15 years ago in video editing and I am sure there are earlier examples, in games we have seen source releases before that had to be retracted later because they did not have the rights to an aspect of the code, usually rad/bink video decoding) and fully expect, dare I say encourage, a nice Streisand effect. However they presumably want a chilling effect on the potential number of mods/ports made as a result, those considering it in the future, open collaboration (forcing it underground will not stop it, however does make it harder/slower) and such like.

As far as Take Two/Rockstar winning. I don't see how they can lose, and if they somehow do then there will probably be 5000 massive software companies funding the appeal as it would speak directly to their existence.
 

smf

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It doesn't seem like Take-Two has a lot of legal ground to stand on here, alongside straight-up lying in their accusations... it seems they have little more ground than Nicalis had, which is to say none. Still, I'm hoping the case is treated fairly, the outcome decided based on law, not money.

What do you think they lied about?

If anyone has any doubt about how the engine was reverse engineered, they live streamed it.



Things to learn:

1. It's obviously a violation.
2. You shouldn't live stream yourself breaking laws.
 
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Jacobh

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An engine that was created by reading the original code and implementing it verbatim could easily infringe copyright.

My understanding of the law is that this is basically correct.

As people have pointed out in terms of US law the Supreme Court recently affirmed you can’t copyright APIs and recreating them isn’t illegal. However that case may not directly apply here since it involved externally published APIs that are intended to have other people write software against.

Reverse engineering is not by itself illegal and the use of decompilation to understand an API is also not automatically illegal. The Sega cases people mention are examples of that.

However, this case from what I can tell is a little different and I don’t think anyone can say for sure how a judge would interpret it particularly without knowing the exact details of how re3 and reVC were created.

If they took decompile source and then just ported it straight-up to a new platform they may have some problems defending that. If they recreated the engine APIs from scratch they would have a slightly stronger defense. They may still have trouble since the logic used in the Oracle / Google API case used the fact that the value of the Java API comes from other people using it to write code. That clearly does not apply to the GTA engine. One thing that may help the developers is that they are “transforming” the code to be used on another platform as that did apply in the Oracle case.

ScummVMseems like a similar situation to me, but I’m not sure if those engine recreations technically work the same way or if anyone has ever tried to sue to take down ScummVM.

Anyway, this is different than the Nintendo cases and Take Two has a weaker case I’d argue. Despite some of the things that are obviously wrong in their notice, they may still have a case depending on some of the specifics of how re3 was created and how a judge interprets the laws.
 
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AlexMCS

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Recreating something from observation and recreating it from having the code in front of you (albeit in a diminished form) are two radically different things (especially if you want to get 1:1 equivalence from observation and non code asset format analysis for a game), not a small hoop or something that effectively makes it pointless, hard to showcase the "bad one" as having happened or otherwise unenforceable

Rebuilding from decompiled assembly code is really not the same as ctrl+c, ctrl+v from the original source.
That's pretty much the definition of analyzing what the compiled binary does and recreating it.
And even then, the code derived from decompilation can, and usually will, be quite different from the original source code.
Even more so if written in a different language.

I, OTOH, don't see how they can win this.

But TBH I don't really care about laws and regulations.
What matters to me is the underlying principles, and whether they are valid in the first place.
Good luck to the re guys.
 

smf

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And even then, the code derived from decompilation can, and usually will, be quite different from the original source code.

The differences don't matter, it's expected that it will be different.

Like when a bluray is ripped and converted to mp4 looks different in the bits and also in the quality of the movie. However it's still a copyright violation.

I don't see how T2 can lose.

However, this case from what I can tell is a little different and I don’t think anyone can say for sure how a judge would interpret it particularly without knowing the exact details of how re3 and reVC were created.

Helpfully aap live streamed himself reverse engineering and copy/pasting code (he says so around 17:24)

 
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MrHuu

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A script/program that takes an executable and turns it into source code would be completely legal (as long as you don't distribute the generated source), but that isn't what mario64 or gta is.

Right, unfamiliar with the sm64 decompilation, there seems to be offered more code and scripts than i initially assumed.
Make me really question why Nintendo didn't take any action yet. Is the code offered straight up decompiled code, or is it used to allow someone else to recreate the actual copyrighted material.

With re3 said material is actually distributed.

@Foxi4 While interesting, not sure if that case really applies here. Do you by any chance know of an actual similar, also more recent, case and result?
 

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The differences don't matter, it's expected that it will be different.

Like when a bluray is ripped and converted to mp4 looks different in the bits and also in the quality of the movie. However it's still a copyright violation.

I don't see how T2 can lose.

The object of the copyright isn't the video format or representation, it's the video itself.
Games are code by definition. The code itself is copyrighted, along with the assets.

By your definition, nothing could ever be Reverse-engineered.
 

Jacobh

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Whether you're allowed to decompile something and what you do with the decompilation afterwards are legally two things. I think that is one hurdle that people who read that "decompilation is legal" don't get over.

Most articles discuss fair use reasons to decompile, producing a competing product by duplicating the functionality verbatim is not a fair use.

https://courses.cs.duke.edu/cps182s/fall02/cscopyright/Copyrights/Copyright-Fairuse.htm

Decompiling object code produces an approximation of the original source code. Merely making this rough copy would usually violate the copyright holder's exclusive rights, even if the person who decompiled the code only used it as a preliminary step in making another work. Someone who reverse engineers software may therefore be liable for copyright infringement unless they can show that reverse engineering is fair use.

I was pointing out the US has more fair use exemptions for decompilation than the EU as the other poster said the opposite.

I am not making a statement of whether this is fair use or not. I think it’s slightly less black and white whether this case is illegal than you seem to and like the interpretation of most laws you have to look at a lot of case law, not just a single source.

I do think you are making a strong argument why this could be illegal, and I generally agree that Take Two has a much stronger case than many other posters here think, but I don’t think you could say for sure how a judge would rule in this case.
 

smf

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The object of the copyright isn't the video format or representation, it's the video itself.
Games are code by definition. The code itself is copyrighted, along with the assets.

They copied the code, they livestreamed themselves copying the code (I posted links earlier)

By your definition, nothing could ever be Reverse-engineered.

You can reverse engineer to find exploits or to find out file formats etc.

re3 isn't just reverse engineering, it's a full decompilation and distribution of the resulting source code. That isn't allowed.

but I don’t think you could say for sure how a judge would rule in this case.

Nobody can, otherwise appeals courts wouldn't exist. But if T2 lose because they make a poor case or the court is confused about what they are seeing, then T2 win at appeal. No software company would want T2 to lose, so there will be plenty of support for them.

Microsoft and apple will be very willing to prevent legal decompilation of windows/ios (which are basically "engines").
 
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linuxares

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Neither of those cases involved distribution of copyright work. It is not a grey area at all.
Neither does the re3 project, as they claim. Courts get to decide if they are not backseat lawyers like us.

TMicrosoft and apple will be very willing to prevent legal decompilation of windows/ios (which are basically "engines").
Please stop. iOS nor Windows are just "engines". If we talk about said kernels. Sure, but it's much more than OS than just being an "engine".
 

smf

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Neither does the re3 project, as they claim. Courts get to decide if they are not backseat lawyers like us.

Clearly it does contain copyright code



The argument will come down to whether it's fair use to do it or not.

Please stop. iOS nor Windows are just "engines". If we talk about said kernels. Sure, but it's much more than OS than just being an "engine".

Both are frameworks that allow you to create/run content, there is no legal difference between them.

If it's legally ok to decompile an "engine" and distribute it, then it's legally ok to do the same with an os.
 
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Foxi4

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@Foxi4 While interesting, not sure if that case really applies here. Do you by any chance know of an actual similar, also more recent, case and result?
This issue isn't really tackled in court that often because there are already some landmark decisions in this regard. As I've stated earlier, the DMCA has a lot of exemptions in regards to reverse engineering, be it via decompilation or guesswork, and one such exemption is interoperability with other systems as described in US Code 1201. A legal license holder can decompile their legally owned software with the express intention of making said software either exchange information with another program or operate on a different system - it violates the EULA, but that's not a criminal act. Regardless of whether reGTA is ruled to be infringing or non-infringing, the crux of the issue is that the court can only rule on the claim of the claimant, not other imaginary infringements that may or may not have occurred. Take Two's lawyers state pretty clearly that the team is, I quote, "By copying, adapting, and distributing derivative and original source code for the Games, Defendants have made the Games fully and freely available to the public, have appropriated a market that belongs to Take-Two (namely, the market for modified or handheld versions of the Games), and enabled countless others to now create their own unauthorized, derivative versions of the Games" - that claim needs to evidenced if the suit is to be successful, and we already know that it is at best half-true - it is the end user who actually supplies the assets to the application. The defendants do not supply original source code in any shape or form, they provide a tool that adapts it for the end user. There's a myriad of different ways one could defend themselves from a claim like this, not to mention that the damages in this suit are questionable. In my estimation this is a strengthened effort to force the defendants to cease their activity, which very well might be successful. A legal battle against a multinational corporation is expensive, even if you're in the right.
 

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What do you think they lied about?

That the reverse-engineered binaries contain game assets. That's pretty obviously false.
These source code files not only contain the derivative software code that enables the Games to run on a player’s computer, but also contain Take-Two’s original digital content such as text, character dialog, and certain game assets.
MrHuu mentioned it earlier.
 

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That the reverse-engineered binaries contain game assets. That's pretty obviously false.

MrHuu mentioned it earlier.

I must have read a different lawsuit.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.384429/gov.uscourts.cand.384429.1.0.pdf

24. Take-Two is informed and believes, and on that basis alleges, that by combining the software contained in the re3 GitHub Repositories (or the compiled, installable build linked to in the Repositories) with certain pre-existing assets and artwork from the Games, members of the public will possess, and can play, complete versions of the Games. These derivative versions of Case 3:21-cv-06831-TSH Document 1 Filed 09/02/21 Page 7 of 17 Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 13417517.2 8 CASE NO. 3:21-cv-6831 COMPLAINT the Games are virtually identical to the original Games in function, appearance, and gameplay, except for certain variations and modifications added by Defendants. Thus, a player in possession of Defendants’ derivative version of the Games can experience the exact same sights, sounds, story, setting, dialog, and other creative content as they would experience in Take-Two’s original version of the Games.


I don't see how they are lying and the defendants admit it on twitter/github/youtube.
 
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