Gaming I'm sick of RPG reviewers.

[Bob Evil]

Most RPG's nowadays are just retreads of others, the genre has got too stale which I guess is why they don't get that great reviews.

The main reason they don't usually get great reviews is that reviewers are lazy, that all reviews are biased, and that the majority of gamers, and hence reviewers, want shallow, un-immerisve gaming experiences, that they can pick up and put down again, after 20 minutes.

Since the casual gamer became the main influence in gaming, games have gotten, as a rule, shallower, shorter & shinier.

Once gamers were a geek-riddled minority, now the geek gamer has become an outsider in his own field, thanks to companies like Sony making gaming 'cool'.

We are entering an age of bubble-gum gaming.

 

[kitetsu]

You have to remember that Shiren is a remake of a 13 year old game, which itself was made in a Rogue style ... Angband was also made in a Rogue style ... that is why they fall into the category of Roguelikes.

Rogue(1980) itself was modelled on dnd, Adventure, Dungeon & Moria (all released in 1975)

It's like all the JRPG lovers who are blissfully unaware that all the original JRPGs were based on Western RPGs, in the first place ... which is why I laugh when I see them saying that is a JRPG rip-off, or that without there'd be no RPGs ... all of them are clueless.

No early Western RPGs = no RPGs at all

I think you've more or less emphasized my point, because when i poke at originality it's usually more of a yearning kind of thing than something out of personal spite, which also happens from time to time. Especially on the word "remake". Whenever i hear that word, i'd expect the definition "crucial core elements retained from the original while some issues are fixed and some new features are added". Shiren may have given the twist of reverting to level 1 upon defeat, but i couldn't find anything else that had enough impact to make the game distinguish itself.

Now, speaking as an overzealously biased JRPG fan, i'm quite aware that JRPGs came from WRPGs. Heck, i even think that a lot of Final Fantasy titles like FFXII are heavily based on Star Wars. It's just that when it comes to gameplay that JRPGs specialize in, i feel a lot more comfortable with the gameplay.

 

[misanthrope]

Yeah I am gonna go ahead and say I read oblivion reviews before picking it up, as I am sure thousands of others did aswell. I enjoyed the game a hell of alot, I'd give it a 9 outa 10 as I am sure alot of those thousands of people would aswell.

So thousands and thousands of people loved the game. The reviewers loved the game......

OH WAIT I KNOW! People only loved it cause the reviewers said it was good!......Piss off. Good games are good games.

Oblivion is not a bad game. Its a good First Person Shooter with rpg elements to it. As an RPG its just awful and pointless, there is 0 sense of accomplishment.

As a person who likes FPS games, I can appreciate Oblivion, Its different and unique when compared to other First Person Action games, it has good story bits to keep you entertained, it gives you a nice world to explore.

As a person who also likes RPG games, Oblivion was just a slap in the face by Bethesda. They just focused on making a good looking action game and went in to include the RPG elements at the last few months in development and it shows. Constantly we've heard talk about radiant AI, Im telling you Bethesda should work with Sony when it comes to over hyping this was right up there with the emotion engine and the "omg supercomputer! cell processor!!" PS3: all talk and a huge disappointment once the actual product was presented. I don't really see anything spectacular about the NPCs, in fact they are just about as good as on any other RPG if not slightly worst, it only looks good in comparison to Morrowind cause of how atrociously bland the NPCs were on Morrowind.

More over the quests were overhyped, the exploration aspect was pointless with an arrow literally telling you where to go: I remember getting completely and utterly lost in Daggerfall and to a lesser extent in Morrowind too and those were some of the best RPG memories I have. Now this is just all gone I can just click on a location then follow the little arrow...what is the point of even having a map anyway? Might as well have just a drawing for you to click the location you wanna travel to ala Fallout 2. Even If i ditched the ridiculous quests systems altogether and modded the compass out of the game I still don't find the point to do anything on this game: On Morrowind you had to had certain skills before progressing on guilds and quests, and you could run into gods as soon as level 1 ( literally, you could go pick the lock and fight Vivec at level 1 if you wanted to ). On oblivion if I have invested time and effort into finding daedric equipment literally forged by demigods, guess what? Town guards can still beat you senseless and starving thieves on the roads have all magically obtained the same equipment while apocalyptic monsters that could destroy anybody but the strongest hero in the world are just roaming around next to messengers while they pass by unharmed...

The game was just ridiculous as an RPG, it was so hugely popular and well received because it was a very good Action game and a technological marble. Guess what? All shooters usually are ( see Gears of Wars, Call of Duty 4, go back to any point in time since Quake and you'd see FPS games as the technology flagship products and always immensely popular ) I am glad so many people liked, but this was NOT the game RPG fans of the Elder Scrolls series were expecting. Thats ok really, but we'd appreciate it if the series could end up on a high note as Morrowind ( even with all its flaws, still an RPG ). The same goes for Fallout, it was fine gone rather than turn into an Action game: for every 10 FPS gamers that loved Oblivion there is at least 1 or 2 RPG fans that were cheated into buying something barely inside their favorite genre.

By looking at this thread I can symptathize with the first poster, both as an RPG fan and as a Progressive music fan.

 

[TrippyJing]

No early Western RPGs = no RPGs at all

I can't say that's completely accurate. After all, someone would've probably started up the genre sooner or later. It wouldn't necessarily need to be started in the West.

 

[Awdofgum]

well lately i've been drifting away from RPGs, well the new ones.
actually i've been drifting away from DS in general. I don't own any Wii RPGs.

maybe i'll whip out the old snes emulator and play some RPGs.

 

[Bob Evil]

No early Western RPGs = no RPGs at all

I can't say that's completely accurate. After all, someone would've probably started up the genre sooner or later. It wouldn't necessarily need to be started in the West.

Yes, it would ... the Japanese never took to pen & paper RPGs, the way the West did ... especially back in their heyday in the late 70s/early 80s ... good times for me lol ... so, it is highly unlikely that RPGs on computers and consoles would have ever come into being, if Western companies hadn't created them.


The West invented video games ... so many people want to be Japanese these days, or are, at the very least, obsessed with Japan ... whilst being fond of some Japanese things, I can still say I am happy with many Western things, too.

A lot of gamers treat Japan as the be-all & end-all for gaming, but they produce as much crap every year, as the West does

 

[TrippyJing]

No early Western RPGs = no RPGs at all

I can't say that's completely accurate. After all, someone would've probably started up the genre sooner or later. It wouldn't necessarily need to be started in the West.

Yes, it would ... the Japanese never took to pen & paper RPGs, the way the West did ... especially back in their heyday in the late 70s/early 80s ... good times for me lol ... so, it is highly unlikely that RPGs on computers and consoles would have ever come into being, if Western companies hadn't created them.

I take issue with the assumption that history could've turned out one way and one way only. We're talking possibilities here, as in what MIGHT'VE happened. You can't say for certain that CRPGs would've never come about if it hadn't been for Western developers. You say that the Japanese had never taken to to pen-and-paper RPGs, and that's true. But had CRPGs never been created, then who knows what might've happened? For all we know, the pen-and-paper variety would've later caught on there, and some Japanese developer would've moved it forward into digital form.

Now it's all a moot point seeing as we all know what already happened, but hey, For Want of a Nail and all that.

 

[Bob Evil]

I find it odd how defensive so many Westerners get of Japan lol

Not willing to give props to your own corner of the globe?

A case of epicanthic envy, perhaps?

Or, is it simply that the society we now live in would deem us racist, for daring to say anything that might come across as derogatory, about people from a place other than our own?

haha


p.s. some will read this and totally fail to get what I am talking about ... no, seriously ... plain words often cause the most confusion

 

[Renegade_R]

Gradius V got a 7/10...I WOULD GIVE IT A 11/10!!!

Why? Because I'm a Gradius fanboy and its everything I could wish for in a Gradius game.

Reviews are objective...as much as possible anyways.

 

[Bob Evil]

Gradius V got a 7/10...I WOULD GIVE IT A 11/10!!!

Why? Because I'm a Gradius fanboy and its everything I could wish for in a Gradius game.

Reviews are subjective...as much as possible anyways.

Fix'd


Opinions = subjective

Reviews = opinions

 

[LoneSyn]

Shiren is similar to my first game "Azure Dreams", so I like it alot. Reviewers can go suck a **** while I have fun with my game.

Overhype is something kids love to do too much. Bashing down new games is something they do too. If something isnt right for them, they think its a piece of **** and should be burned. I rather burn these kids before they do anything else

 

[cruddybuddy]

Reviews are biased opinions not the truth

*rolls eyes* Opinions are bias by definition.

 

[kitetsu]

I find it odd how defensive so many Westerners get of Japan lol

Not willing to give props to your own corner of the globe?

A case of epicanthic envy, perhaps?

Or, is it simply that the society we now live in would deem us racist, for daring to say anything that might come across as derogatory, about people from a place other than our own?

haha


p.s. some will read this and totally fail to get what I am talking about ... no, seriously ... plain words often cause the most confusion

If you ask me, i don't need to be defensive since i came from southeast asia.

 

[Psyfira]

It's the same with any genre; basic platformers and puzzle titles get crap reviews too. Reviews are subjective; everyone likes different stuff. It's far easier to take reviews from finding people on a forum who's opinions are similar to yours rather than an official reviewer, simply because there's more of them.

 

[BORTZ]

@ Renegade R: i love gradius!

on topic i was surprised at the beating that Rune Factory took. i like fantasy and the idea of farming. it was just a nice change of the normal run of the mill games. as of playing that game i startd to not care what others think about games. if i like it i like it. so what.

 

[cutterjohn]

Most RPG's nowadays are just retreads of others, the genre has got too stale which I guess is why they don't get that great reviews.

Yes. They're virtually all failed Diablo clones. However, Gothic 3, bugs aside, and The Witcher weren't bad ARPGs.

Two Worlds was different enough to be somewhat interesting as a FP ARPG.

Titan Quest was the best of the Diablo clones, although the lack of randomized areas made it's appeal fairly short.

Basilisk Games Eschalon Book I, indie RPG was pretty good, and the closest thing to a good old CRPG in a LONG time.

If Cleve EVER gets Grimoire out, and it's even halfway decent it should be a good old dungeon crawler experience.

The sequel to Divine Divinity will, also, hopefully, be good as Divine Divinity is one of the few ARPGs that I ever actually really liked.

Other than that, there also seems to be alot of attempts at cloning WoW in SP ARPGs, or otherwise in addition to the Diablo cloning.

[EDIT]
@Issac
It should have actually have been named Oblivious, as the game is as Oblivious to player actions, as you are to forum posts.

As to being a fanboy, it's pretty obvious who the bethesda LARPers are the moment they open their mouths, exposing entire lack of intellect. Most evident when they attempt to defend Oblivious.

Remember FO3 is Oblivious with teh BFG 3000 NUKE gun FTW! (A $10 downloadable content to boot! Nukies FTW!)
[/EDIT]

 

[Ktaro]

Somedays i'd really love it if RPGs implement a Guilty Gear fighting mechanism in a 3rd person perspective, should it revolve around close-quarters-combat. That way i can finally have my skills dictate how well i'm gonna get out of a boss fight instead of numbers and a wide open space.

DMC is one example close to what i want, but I just feel that it's too short.


As for Shiren... I'd give it a 7/10. It lacks originality since i thought that it plays too much like Angband, but it's not that terrible, either.

Ever tried playing Shenmue?
also I totaly agree with sillypatterson games like disgaea, etrian odyssey etc are so underated. I prefer RPG's where you have more freedom over your party or character's customization of skillz/abilities or magic.

 

[Hillsy_]

@cutterjohn -

Seriously, if you can't see why Oblivion is one of the best RPG's then you clearly don't know anything about them. I've played over 80 hours and it is one of the finest games I've played. Yes, definitely better than Morrowind, especially the combat. Yes, it still has a few bugs but most games have them (nowadays). It took Divine Divinity a year to be properly fixed and playable; and yes the latter half of this particular game was lacking. Don't you see? With Oblivion they were trying to 'create a world'. You can explore, you can avoid the main quest, side quests etc. You can be a 30 to 40th level fighter and fight high level monsters. You can be a thief, collecting items and storing them in your newly bought house. Or, like some people; hording/storing all the different armour types in your house. You can buy furniture for your house, you can ride horses, you can be a murderer, or a famous knight looking for the crusader relics. Go where you want to, talk to lots of different people. Many things the game does right, even the music which suits the game perfectly.

There are good RPG's from both Japan and the West, everyone is different.

Don't look at these games so negatively, look at what they are trying to achieve from a ever more 'demanding' gamer. Me, I was happy playing Dungeon Master, Captive, Eye of the Beholder, SSI Dungeon & Dragons, Etrian Odyssey, FFVII, Shenmue, Avernum, Demise etc..

You talk about dungeon crawlers, have you played Dungeon Master?

Opinions are subjective, I agree. I never really listen to reviews, I go by what I like. After 25 years of gaming, you get to know the good from the crap..

and believe me, Oblivion is up there with the best. Maybe not the best, but it deserved all the praise it got.

PS: I agree Titan Quest was a good game too.

 

[cutterjohn]

Seriously, if you can't see why Oblivion is one of the best RPG's then you clearly don't know anything about them. I've played over 80 hours and it is one of the finest games I've played. Yes, definitely better than Morrowind, especially the combat.WTF?! Oblivion is an epic phail as an RPG. ABSOLUTELY NONE of the elements that make up an RPG really matter all that much in Oblivious, e.g. skills & stats.

Given the trivial nature of the ENTIRE body of Oblivious quests, hardly see how you can consider it to be better than Morrowind unless your teh grafix wh0re. Skills are nothing more than limiting factors in access to items/abilities rather than predictors of success of actions AND level of success/failure of an action. Stats provide nothing more than very little in the ability modifiers, e.g. damage, speed, etc.

QUOTEWith Oblivion they were trying to 'create a world'. You can explore, you can avoid the main quest, side quests etc. You can be a 30 to 40th level fighter and fight high level monsters. You can be a thief, collecting items and storing them in your newly bought house. Or, like some people; hording/storing all the different armour types in your house. You can buy furniture for your house, you can ride horses, you can be a murderer, or a famous knight looking for the crusader relics. Go where you want to, talk to lots of different people. Many things the game does right, even the music which suits the game perfectly.

You're LARPing a computer game?! WTF?! Too bad that EVERYTHING is levelled kind of defeating the entire puprose making it boredom ad infinitum, and it doesn't really matter that you can "talk" to all 10 NPCs as they all have the exact same 3 sentences to "speak". Too bad that they removed all the niceties like all of the Tamriel holidays and their effects, etc, and otherwise raped their own canon of "lore". Additionally, there are no real choices or consequences to ANY of your actions. All quests end up with the same results, generally "solved" through combat of one form or another. And, oh, let us not forget the quest GPS requiring a mod to rid yourself of that mis-"feature", etc.

Oblivious is an epic fail as an RPG. It is definitely NOT a CRPG, an ARPG, or a SRPG. At best it is a shallow action-adventure designed for the ADHD set(forced voice acting of ever line with limited dialog). Oblivious was an exercise in epic boredom & epic phail rather than an enjoyable epic CRPG, which I guess is kind of hard to do when the landmass is microscopic and the main city is about the size of a tiny village.

Just based on these factors alone, at least in Morrowind the NPCs were more plentiful, had greater range of dialog, and a few quests that were more than trivial. Additionally, the level-scaling was more toned down to a reasonable level as it was still possible for the player to go places and get his but kicked or pick up a good piece of loot for their level up until later parts of the game. Skills still mattered in that they still behaved as they are meant to in RPGs, being not only a limiting factor in access to abilities but also a determinant factor in whether or not the player is successful in their actions. That said, I enjoyed Daggerfall more for the random dungeons, as even in Morrowind there are only so many dungeons(most pathetically tiny), and since they never change, other than monsters, they are really only interesting the first time through, if at all, although the modding capabilities plus Morrowind Graphics Extender really give Morrowind new life. Unfortunately there are no easy mechanisms for modding Daggerfall, and the graphics are becoming fairly dated even to me, but the dungeon crawls are still a win.

AFAIC the last good traditional CRPG was Wizardry 8. Arcanum & ToEE (with fan patch fixes & mods) were pretty good as well, but not nearly as good as W8, and it's been all downhill since then.

 

[Hillsy_]

Wizardry 8 had many red herrings, it wasn't a complete game unlike Wizardry 6 or 7. Wizardry 8 itself was a good game, but due to lack of funding and production problems it never became what Sir-Tech had in envisioned for it to be. Did you ever play Baldur's Gate or its' sequel? These were great CRPG's. The problem is, gamers are far more demanding, and as such developers cannot always deliver what people desire.