What is your opinion on coronavirus vaccines?

[notimp]

The issue with the US healthcare system is that you are conned by cartells, that have disabled market forces. So the market in your case doesnt work anymore.

This is largely independent of people on the lower income scale not receiving any 'non emergency' healthcare.

Your drug prices are just through the roof, because you have no other options, and no unified 'large force' that could implement baseline pricing, by being a large enough vendor. Its entirely messed up.

And the argument usually goes: Yeah, but it holds incentives for new drug development. Issue - most of them are not directed towards curing illnesses, and in previous years there have hardly been any large breakthroughs, but more and more patent wars instead (as more people worldwide become affluent enough to buy themselves a larger lifespan, ...).

Roughly. So for the average citizen the US medical system is broken (preexisting conditions issue, cost).
--

But also, market isnt the solution to all issues. Again, if you do a free trade agreement with india, as a result of their wages being lower, you are now developing india (and your affluent class). Those are market forces. Also markets tend to create bubble and bust cycles (thats misallocation), that then have to be mitigated by public investments. Trade nowadays is largely done by algorithms, we dont understand anymore - and which have had to be reigned in structurally, because of flash crashes, so you wrote those out of the systems, by writing in guideposts. Thats not free market. Those arent even human actors anymore. Then there are fields, where personal gains arent driving a better development of whatever exists in the field.

And there is the fact that the magic 'invisible hand of the market' doesnt exist. Adam Smith only ever wrote about it in the following context (in 'Wealth of nations'). People wouldnt be propelled to invest in foreign countries, they'd have a homeland bias, that would make them invest in England more, as if propelled by an invisible hand. Not even Trump believes that anymore.


See also criticisms (Stiglitz) and f.e. the 'externalities' argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

 

[Glyptofane]

Nothing you can do about it the vaccine is going to be mandatory

I expect the possibility that it will be mandated by companies and employers in US, but perhaps not the government itself, in which case I suppose I would quit my job. I would rather catch coronavirus than take the vaccine.

 

[notimp]

I expect the possibility that it will be mandated by companies and employers in US, but perhaps not the government itself, in which case I suppose I would quit my job. I would rather catch coronavirus than take the vaccine.

Give us the why.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

I would rather catch coronavirus than take the vaccine.

This, but only for the first month of the vaccine. After that, it's had enough testing.

 

[Foxi4]

Your drug prices are just through the roof, because you have no other options, and no unified 'large force' that could implement baseline pricing, by being a large enough vendor. Its entirely messed up.

Your proposed solution to a problem created by wage fixing is price fixing. Just wanted to point that out. The root cause of "the insurance cartel" taking over dates back to Roosevelt freezing wages in the wake of a labor shortage caused by World War II. Employers could no longer compete for labour on the basis of wages, so they started competing based of healthcare coverage for the workers, which was a very attractive proposition. The government then said "game on" and made those corporate contributions tax deductible. This in turn created a situation wherein insurance companies were no longer compelled to compete for individual customers, rather they went directly to corporations. Individual coverage became secondary to multimillion contracts, and the situation only got worse when this coverage became mandatory, removing any remaining incentive to compete based on price - if your corporate customers *have* to buy coverage no matter what then the concept of value goes completely out the window. At this stage an individual is irrelevant in the system and, predictably, ends up having to cough up fees equivalent to those paid by a giant corporation. Now, this might be outlandish, but hear me out - perhaps if the problem was caused by government intervention, the solution isn't another government intervention. Y'know, just a thought. Wink wink.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/...-has-employer-sponsored-health-insurance.html

 

[notimp]

Your proposed solution to a problem created by wage fixing is price fixing. Just wanted to point that out. The root cause of "the insurance cartel" taking over dates back to Roosevelt freezing wages in the wake of a labor shortage caused by World War II. Employers could no longer compete for labour on the basis of wages, so they started competing based of healthcare coverage for the workers, which was a very attractive proposition. The government then said "game on" and made those corporate contributions tax deductible. This in turn created a situation wherein insurance companies were no longer compelled to compete for individual customers, rather they went directly to corporations. Individual coverage became secondary to multimillion contracts, and the situation only got worse when this coverage became mandatory, removing any remaining incentive to compete based on price - if your corporate customers *have* to buy coverage no matter what then the concept of value goes completely out the window. At this stage an individual is irrelevant in the system and, predictably, ends up having to cough up fees equivalent to those paid by a giant corporation. Now, this might be outlandish, but hear me out - perhaps if the problem was caused by government intervention, the solution isn't another government intervention. Y'know, just a thought. Wink wink.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/...-has-employer-sponsored-health-insurance.html

Nonsense as far as I'm concerned (fixed wages dont create a pharma cartel). But also entirely useless as far as a solution is concerned.

Historical arguments almost always are entirely useless. (Usually because history is seen as part of story telling and not real negotiations.)

"Price fixing" pharma prices (creating a larger entity that can go into negotiations with multinationals to figure out real cost over time), is the solution in pretty much every western country outside the us. That includes canada.

The only question left to ask is, why wouldnt you want to fix it? Everyone knows how to.

 

[Foxi4]

Nonsense as far as I'm concerned (fixed wages dont create a pharma cartel). But also entirely useless as far as a solution is concerned.

Historical arguments almost always are entirely useless. (Usually because history is seen as part of story telling and not real negotiations.)

"Price fixing" pharma prices (creating a larger entity that can go into negotiations with multinationals to figure out real cost over time), is the solution in pretty much every western country outside the us. That includes canada.

The only question left to ask is, why wouldnt you want to fix it? Everyone knows how to.

You yourself have just said that the problem with American drug pricing is the fact that market forces have been removed from the equation. The solution is to re-introduce them, either by tearing the system down completely or by gradual deregulation. A few years of chaos are preferable to an eternity of suffering.

If you're asking me why price fixing is a bad idea in earnest, I can't really help you - this is a pretty basic concept in economic theory. A full discussion would go well beyond the scope of this thread, but in short, it's yet another measure that eliminates competition. You want to replace one price fixing cartel with another price fixing cartel and expect the outcome to be different this time around. There's a term used for repeating the same action over and over with the expectation of a different result, I'm sure you can figure that one out on your own.

As for disregarding history, those who don't pay attention to it are doomed to repeat it - that's not even an argument worth having, so I won't be having it. You're on your own with that one.

In regards to the Canadian healthcare system, anyone with two brain cells that occasionally meet opts for private alternatives - in fact, sorting out procedures in private clinics is often times recommended by Canadian doctors themselves as means to avoid the ridiculous queues when time is of the essence. According to recent surveys patients wait 20 weeks on average between getting a referral from their General Practitioner and seeing a specialist. Keep in mind, that's not actually having a procedure done - that's the consultation, actual operations still require additional queuing. So yes, I'm sure the service is excellent, top notch and A+, provided you're not in a hurry. If you are and you want to sort out an issue before it turns from mild to crippling, you'll avoid that queue at all costs. I don't know how people can say that the Canadian healthcare system is more accessible simply because it's "free" (it's not, healthcare is one of the most expensive items in the budget) when it's effectively impossible to speak with a specialist in a timely manner, that's purposefully deceptive. It's most definitely "cheaper" than in the U.S., but that lower price comes at a cost in other areas. That's not to say the American system is better, they both suck, just in different ways.

 

[notimp]

The solution is to re-introduce them, either by tearing the system down completely or by gradual deregulation. A few years of chaos are preferable to an eternity of suffering.

Yeah, if you want to use the internet to promote the killing of people, on ideological grounds, which you made out to be 'without alternative', may I suggest a more secure platform, than gbatemp?

Or facebook actually, because you are more likely to get help using that venue.

 

[Foxi4]

Yeah, if you want to use the internet to promote the killing of people, on ideological grounds, which you made out to be 'without alternative', may I suggest a more secure platform, than gbatemp?

Or facebook actually, because you are more likely to get help using that venue.

I don't remember advocating for that. I do remember saying that the system needs to be torn down and replaced with a free market alternative. Don't burden me with imaginary deaths that exist exclusively in your head.

 

[notimp]

You are doing it again.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also, your entire argument consists of religion. Your god is free market. Your founding myth is something a president did a hundred years ago. Your understanding of processes and how they are connected to the real world is non existent - and your solution still is faulty.

(People earning less, doesnt allow them access to the medical system - which at this point basically has decoupled from the bottom half of people within your society - to reap larger percentages from the upper half. This btw is in essence, why Covid-19 has become such an issue for the US. Trump just looked at economic figures for a while - and the health industry in your country really had no incentive to act. Because the assumption was - as always, that the state will provide funding in case of a crisis. Pretty much forever. So why not wait a little longer. The argument was faulty of course. Just as your believes, that markets will solve everything.

They dont solve the distribution issue, they dont solve climate change, they dont solve the health care crisis, didnt solve the US health system (you already are probably the most free (as in hands off) market economy in the western world today), they dont solve the bubble and bust cycle issue. And they dont account for the fact, that most of what the US exports as innovations today got created in state financed sectors.

Stop believing a lie.

 

[Foxi4]

You are doing it again.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also, your entire argument consists of religion. Your god is free market. Your founding myth is something a president did a hundred years ago. Your understanding of processes and how they are connected to the real world is non existent - and your solution still is faulty.

(People earning less, doesnt allow them access to the medical system - which at this point basically has decoupled from the bottom half of people within your society - to reap larger percentages from the upper half. This btw is in essence, why Covid-19 has become such an issue for the US. Trump just looked at economic figures for a while - and the health industry in your country really had no incentive to act. Because the assumption was - as always, that the state will provide funding in case of a crisis. Pretty much forever. So why not wait a little longer. The argument was faulty of course. Just as your believes, that markets will solve everything.

They dont solve the distribution issue, they dont solve climate change, they dont solve the health care crisis, didnt solve the US health system (you already are probably the most free (as in hands off) market economy in the western world today), they dont solve the bubble and bust cycle issue. And they dont account for the fact, that most of what the US exports as innovations today got created in state financed sectors.

Stop believing a lie.

I'm sorry, but it's your understanding of the issue that's flawed. The money that was intended for worker's wages was instead funneled into insurance companies, the same insurance companies that now effectively dictate the cost of healthcare, and this racket continues today. There are no ifs or buts about it, it's not a matter of opinion, it's precisely what happened. This move by the FDR administration led to long-term deflation of wages *and* it contributed to the establishment of a cabal of insurance companies, and further legislation in regards to public coverage caused the cost of healthcare to skyrocket further by turning it into mandatory spending, completely eliminating free market forces and not allowing the industry to self-regulate. I gave you a pretty exhaustive explanation of the logical progression here, in accordance with how markets actually work in reality, as opposed to some fictional vision of how they should work - if you can't follow that train of thought, again, I can't help you. Prosperity is based on risk, not safety - once you start meddling with that, you're meddling with forces that no government, no matter the size and scope, can't effectively control. There's a very simple way to fix this - dismantle the cartel by completely removing employer-based insurance from the equation, divvy up the current pools into private accounts for individual members and return to normalcy by still providing the deductible to incentivise buying in, but make insurance elective so that companies have impetus to compete in the realms of price and coverage. Anybody who falls outside of that system should pay at the till, just like for any other service, and after a few years of general chaos and confusion the market will stabilise, just like it always does. The argument of "killing" is moot to me, people are dying due to inadequate coverage right now, except without any hope of the situation improving, so you're arguing that in bad faith as far as I'm concerned. Of course none of this will ever happen since it's a proposition that's unpalatable to people of a certain political persuasion, but that doesn't make anything I've said untrue - it's demonstrably true based on all available evidence. Right now we're discussing the merits of fixing a dented car by whacking it with a hammer some more to make the dents symmetrical. Sometimes it's hard to swallow the fact that the jalopy you've been trying to fix for nigh on a century now belongs in the scrapyard and it's time to buy a new car, but that's just the way it is. You're not getting more mileage out of this system by buying an air freshener, you're just deluding yourself into thinking that you're not careening towards a cliff inside a junker with no breaks because the inside smells nice. In any case, since the conversation is getting circular here and it's straying grossly off topic, we should probably focus on the upcoming vaccine and opinions directly related to it - neither you nor I have the power to fix healthcare.

 

[spotanjo3]

I don't trust government. NEVER!

 

[notimp]

Foxi4: I'm pretty sure that all of what you wrote has no baring on reality.

Did you make it up? Did someone else you believe in? How did you come by your moderators badge...

Those are the necessary questions to start with.


Or we could start with the content - long term deflation of wages is not triggered by 'insurance companies getting together in a cabal to influence president FDR to give them money to control wages'. If you believe that - you are pretty much insane.

Also, there are at least three logic reversals in that statement. (Insurance companies control pharma pricing - upwards? (So that they get less business?) FDR forcing rules of operation and higher taxes, which were used for state projects to get out of a recession, and pushing union building benefited cartel creation? High taxes to this day are the cause of wage deflation? (What?) Removing all state control and letting the market rule free, might cause a small period of economic chaos (and people dying), but its the only alternative we've left and much better, than continuing what we have now?

Anybody home?


Lets start with a simple economic principle. Free markets, if unattended lead to monopolies. (One market leader, one less important rival, if you are lucky.) If you dont get fully fledged monopolies, the centralization tendencies caused by free market forces lead to ambitions to form price cartels. (Big players dont want their price structures to come down more at a certain point, and if there are few enough rivals left, maybe you could get them to talk to each other to prevent competition.)

Regulation is what prevents that. (Remember when Gates was on trial? Say hello to Bezos next. At least if your government would be working. In reality those companies become multinationals, and exploiting other nations always is more profitable to the US than breaking those up, so you leave them be and give them even more taxbreaks to build their headquarters in your city.)


Also this little problem:

Compromising with Congress, FDR dropped universal health care from his Social Security bill before signing on

https://timeline.com/social-security-universal-health-care-efe875bbda93

 

[Foxi4]

Foxi4: I'm pretty sure that all of what you wrote has no baring on reality.

Did you make it up? Did someone else you believe in? How did you come by your moderators badge...

Those are the necessary questions to start with.


Or we could start with the content - long term deflation of wages is not triggered by 'insurance companies getting together in a cabal to influence president FDR to give them money to control wages'. If you believe that - you are pretty much insane.

Also, there are at least three logic reversals in that statement. (Insurance companies control pharma pricing - upwards? (So that they get less business?) FDR forcing rules of operation and higher taxes, which were used for state projects to get out of a recession, and pushing union building benefited cartel creation? High taxes to this day are the cause of wage deflation? (What?) Removing all state control and letting the market rule free, might cause a small period of economic chaos (and people dying), but its the only alternative we've left and much better, than continuing what we have now?

Anybody home?


Lets start with a simple economic principle. Free markets, if unattended lead to monopolies. (One market leader, one less important rival, if you are lucky.) If you dont get fully fledged monopolies, the centralization tendencies caused by free markets lead to ambitions to form price cartels. (Big players dont want their price structures to come down more at a certain point, and if there are few enough rivals left, maybe you could get them to talk to each other to prevent competition.)

Regulation is what prevents that. (Remember when Gates was on trial?)

FDR didn't freeze wages because he was colluding with insurance companies, he did it because his administration was expecting a massive recession due to a labour shortage since most working age men went to the front lines. If "left unattended" industries would have to compete for the worker by increasing wages, this was prevented from happening by freezing wages, so the *only* way for companies to remain competitive on the market was to offer attractive healthcare coverage. When those same companies were offered a deductible they must've thought the administration was insane - their spending *hasn't changed*, their budget for wages was exactly the same as they planned for anyway, except instead of paying it all to the worker the "excess" was tax-free and paid to insurance companies - if that's not deflating on-hand wages for the employee then I have a bridge to sell you too. I'm not going to argue this topic any further, it doesn't pertain to the COVID vaccine discussion, any further off topic comments will be removed. You don't have to "believe" me, you can just grab a history book in your spare time - educating you is not my responsibility. I already laid out the historical facts and gave you the breakdown of what they ultimately led to, you're welcome to have a different opinion, being wrong isn't illegal. If you want to discuss this subject with me privately then you're welcome to shoot me a PM instead of derailing the thread.

 

[Magsor]

Wear a mask. There is just evidence there.
I just wanted to say that.
And Canada is better because our health care is free we have opened up schools and business now. Our numbers are real and we are gonna do good.
If I am sick I get service and will never have to pay even I have not a penny it is misinformation to say otherwise.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

Wear a mask. There is just evidence there.

I'm not gonna tear off my ears and fill my face with saliva and mucus.

 

[sarkwalvein]

I'm not gonna tear off my ears and fill my face with saliva and mucus.

Why are you even considering tearing off your ears and filling your face with saliva and mucus?

Please, seek help, whoever told you you needed to tear off you ears was certainly trying to deceive you, there's no need or reason to tear off your ears and certainly if this person suggested you had to fill your face with saliva and mucus and you still believed them it shows they sure have you under their feet at least psychologically.

 

[Foxi4]

Why are you even considering tearing off your ears and filling your face with saliva and mucus?

Please, seek help, whoever told you you needed to tear off you ears was certainly trying to deceive you, there's no need or reason to tear off your ears and certainly if this person suggested you had to fill your face with saliva and mucus and you still believed them it shows they sure have you under their feet at least psychologically.

I think I've seen that kind of face mask in Texas Chainsaw Massacre, very fetching. Not sure about its filtering capabilities though - I'm pretty sure Leatherface was mostly for show.

 

[Fawe]

Janus is real

 

[UltraSUPRA]

Why are you even considering tearing off your ears and filling your face with saliva and mucus?

Please, seek help, whoever told you you needed to tear off you ears was certainly trying to deceive you, there's no need or reason to tear off your ears and certainly if this person suggested you had to fill your face with saliva and mucus and you still believed them it shows they sure have you under their feet at least psychologically.

So I don't have to wear a mask.