Hacking Why add anti-piracy measures to Devolution ?

[retKHAAAN]

............................
(I really need to stop wasting my time coming into this thread...)

+1

But it's soo fun seeing how angry people get over something so trivial. You'd think tueidj massacred an African village from the amount of hate he's getting regarding an application no one is being forced to use...

 

[WiiUBricker]

(I really need to stop wasting my time coming into this thread...)

Then stop coming into this thread?

 

[tmv_josue]

But it's soo fun seeing how angry people get over something so trivial. You'd think tueidj massacred an African village from the amount of hate he's getting regarding an application no one is being forced to use...

So are the children, kicking and screaming if you don't do what they want.

(I really need to stop wasting my time coming into this thread...)

Then stop coming into this thread?

+1... including myself... LoL.

 

[D34DL1N3R]

How does Devolution know that a disc has already been verified? Wouldn't it have to save it in some sort of config file or something? And can't people just edit and/or swap said file between Wii's to make Devo think a game has already been verified?

 

[loco365]

How does Devolution know that a disc has already been verified? Wouldn't it have to save it in some sort of config file or something? And can't people just edit and/or swap said file between Wii's to make Devo think a game has already been verified?

An official Gamecube disc and a backup disc are burned in different fashions. Official discs have their data written from the edge of the disc to the middle, while burned discs have their data burned from the center outward. Devolution can tell the difference between the two.

At least I think that was the difference, feel free to correct me.

 

[wiismodrome]

You're only ranting... only 2 games not worked of your great collection, and yet, to others they work.
You have reported the problem a couple of days ago.
Be patient and expected to be corrected in a future release.

So many misconstruals in this thread.... I'm not ranting. I have be articulating my views on the topic under discussion. Not sure what to say about the people who appear to come into this thread to make personal comments, however.....

 

[wiismodrome]

How does Devolution know that a disc has already been verified? Wouldn't it have to save it in some sort of config file or something? And can't people just edit and/or swap said file between Wii's to make Devo think a game has already been verified?

It saves a unique security file which is generated for each game disc in the application directory. Subsequent attempts to load that particular game load as long as that file remains in place. Apparently these security files cannot be moved or altered or re-authorization will be required.

 

[D34DL1N3R]

How does Devolution know that a disc has already been verified? Wouldn't it have to save it in some sort of config file or something? And can't people just edit and/or swap said file between Wii's to make Devo think a game has already been verified?

An official Gamecube disc and a backup disc are burned in different fashions. Official discs have their data written from the edge of the disc to the middle, while burned discs have their data burned from the center outward. Devolution can tell the difference between the two.

At least I think that was the difference, feel free to correct me.

What does that have to do with what I said? I'm saying that since a game only has to be verified once with the original disc, there has to be some way that Devolution "remembers" that it has already been verified and no longer needs the disc. Something has to be written for it to remember, whether it be to the iso itself, or to a file. I'm wondering if that file can be swapped and/or edited between Wii's, or if a change in the iso can be found and then anyone with the same iso could alter it with a hex editor or something. I dunno how it all works, but it seems plausable imo.

Edit: Just saw Wiismodrome's reply. Has anyone actually tried placing the security file on a different Wii? Or compared the file from the same game, but verified on different Wii's?

 

[retKHAAAN]

So many misconstruals in this thread.... I'm not ranting. I have be articulating my views on the topic under discussion. Not sure what to say about the people who appear to come into this thread to make personal comments, however.....

So your comments regarding the dev being a failure for coding a loader that doesn't load every game aren't personal? I don't know. If someone said I failed at something I put a lot of time and energy into, I might take it personally. Good thing tueidj doesn't give two shits.

 

[wiismodrome]

So your comments regarding the dev being a failure for coding a loader that doesn't load every game aren't personal? I don't know. If someone said I failed at something I put a lot of time and energy into, I might take it personally. Good thing tueidj doesn't give two shits.

Another straw man fallacy. I never made any claim that the developer was a failure. What I said was that application fails to do what it claims to do (for the aforementioned reasons). Two entirely different claims.

 

[JohnnyBlaze1986]

Actually you (and most people in this thread) are the only ones whining and bitching. Dumbass.

I have to say, over the past couple days I've lost respect for a lot of people based on their comments in this thread.

I find it interesting how readily people take sides on certain issues, then belittle those on the "other side". I've seen questionable behavior from a variety of people this thread, both in favor and against AP.

What I personally find annoying is when people drop into the thread and make some sort of dismissive comment telling people "not to whine" and then leave. That does nothing for facilitating civil discussion. That's just trolling. And there is no good reason why people cannot have a civil discussion about the AP in Devolution. It is a valid topic, and one worthy of discussion, in part because Devolution's AP is causing a number of legitimate retail games not to work in the program.

There is nothing civil about ALL CAPS or exclamation! points! at the end! of every sentence! as they appear in so many posts in this thread.

If you're truly against this AP only because of potential issues with retail discs and not because it makes it harder to pirate, then my hat is off to you. You're one of the few people in this thread with a legitimate concern. However, your voice will be drowned out by all of the people complaining that tueidj is a troll.

I don't care either way whether there's AP or not. I buy all my games so it doesn't even affect me. I guess that's why I can look at this app objectively... It's no different from software developers requiring keys to unlock their software, only as I believe Devin (maybe?) pointed out pages back, these keys are reusable. You only need to put the game in your Wii once, and then you can pass it on to someone else or sell it off, whatever. If a piece of software isn't useful to you, you're under no obligation to use it. If you don't agree with a developer, there's no need to pay them or what they produce any attention. What's stopping all the haters from just forgetting that Devolution even exists? Only the fact that they want to hate on it.

Hmm, you've never seen an analogy, yes? Tey're often extreme to showcase the flaws in an argument in a more apparent light. I was being 100$ serious. 100 fucking dollars.

I'm pretty sure analogies are used to make ideas more accessible. Only children or people desperate to be "right" use extremes and exaggerations to try and prove a point. Adults and level headed debators use analogies to simplify without exacerbating.

I don't need his respect. If someone acts that way in a discussion about a problem, I don't respect him anyway. You can tell who the trolls are. They are the ones who just insult everybody, grasping at straws to back the author, not bring any facts to the table, and won't listen to the facts presented. I said earlier that the reasons I posted was because the AP was stopping people from playing their discs and because of the author's arrogant and egotistical nature of his responses. If you don't want to support something and take feedback, DON'T RELEASE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE! SIMPLE!

Once DM has audio streaming, it seems likely that most people will migrate in that direction, as that it the only major feature which it is lacking in comparison to Devolution... that plus the ability to use compressed games, and not waste hundreds of MB of drive space filled with unused garbage data.

1.3GB per game really isn't that big of a deal, especially if you have a relatively large hard drive to begin with. I get the feeling that once Dios Mios gets audio streaming, Devolution's author will abandon the homebrew scene in a fit of rage.

GOOD! I cannot WAIT to see that. It'll prove all the more that he's a childish . I don't need ANYTHING from someone like that. Personally, I'd rather do without than have someone like HIM release it.

Once DM has audio streaming, it seems likely that most people will migrate in that direction, as that it the only major feature which it is lacking in comparison to Devolution... that plus the ability to use compressed games, and not waste hundreds of MB of drive space filled with unused garbage data.

1.3GB per game really isn't that big of a deal, especially if you have a relatively large hard drive to begin with. I get the feeling that once Dios Mios gets audio streaming, Devolution's author will abandon the homebrew scene in a fit of rage.

If you're using Dios Mios on a loader, you must have a few wii games, and most of them are over 1.3, heck, they even reach around 8 gb.

I was referring to gamecube disc images, but yes, even Wii games can fit on FAT32 HDD just fine. I fail to see the point of compressing images if you have ample room (keyword: "ample"). ANYWAYS, it's awesome news nonetheless, as I thought it was impossible to achieve with the Wii's native gamecube mode.

That's the point of the WBFS file format. Games over 4GB can be split over FAT32. That was the reason for its creation.

1.3GB per game really isn't that big of a deal, especially if you have a relatively large hard drive to begin with.

For a one or two games, no. However, I do not currently have enough HD space to store all of my retail GC games uncompressed. Many games use less than 100 MB compressed, meaning that over 90% of the ISO is garbage data. All that wasted space quickly adds up when an entire collection is archived. Only a few games seem to require a 1:1 image to work properly. Thus, I would suggest that allowing compressed images for everything else is a sensible move.

Dude, just do yourself a favor and get a 500GB USB drive. I have around 200 discs for the Gamecube(counting discs in multi-disc games like Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid) and they take up around 300GB for my WODE Jukebox. I should also add that they are full ISO's. I don't trim them when I rip them. Only for my Wii stuff I do that. If you're using Wii games too, do what I did and get a 1TB USB drive and format it into a 500GB partition for the Wii and a 430GB partition for the GameCube(the drive will be 930GB after formatting to NTFS).

Once DM has audio streaming, it seems likely that most people will migrate in that direction, as that it the only major feature which it is lacking in comparison to Devolution... that plus the ability to use compressed games, and not waste hundreds of MB of drive space filled with unused garbage data.

And there you go. Different strokes for different folks. No need to bitch about what one app can or can't do when there's another that does what you want it to.


but then you go on to say..

Devolution fails to do what it claims to do (load GC games from USB), at least with some retail discs for some users.

...as if every other USB Loader had 100% compatibility right out of the gate....

No. But there is a HUGE difference between 80-85% compatibility and 0% compatibility...........

But actually it's not. They could use DM/DML, or they could just play their retail games as was intended. Nobody is losing the ability to do anything.

Devolution is supposedly a USB loader for GC games. However, it is a USB loader for GC games which will not load a number of GC games due to problems with its AP scheme. On that basis, it fails to do what it claims to do.

Just because there are some glitches (which I'm sure tueidj is working on), that doesn't make it a failure. This is something people have been trying to make for about 5 years. You can't expect everything to be perfect after only a few months of developing it.

Don't demand perfection when someone has just accomplished what was long believed to be impossible.

Actually, he's made it pretty clear that he doesn't plan on working on issues for games he doesn't own/plan on playing.

This place is becoming a pseudo-intellectual flame war pretty fast, on both sides. My votes to close it, Mods.

1. THAT was the point I was trying to make all along, Maverick. Why release something WITHOUT the source code when you will NOT support it?
2. I think it be better if it WAS closed, as a lot of these people have no valid points, won't listen to the facts presented them, and cut down those who DO present legit arguments. But, then again, if they close this thread, it'll just continue somewhere else. That's why the best way to deal with trolls is a shotgun

 

[nightwaxon]

Johnny Blaze. Give it a rest for Pete's sake. Whinge, whinge, whinge. How long did that last post take you? Get a life...

 

[wiismodrome]

Hmmm... having difficulty understanding how people constantly misinterpret things and using such strong language... particularly in this thread.

Personally, I think that Devolution is a formidable programming accomplishment. Allowing GC games to be played off of USB in Wii mode with audio streaming support represents somewhat of a holy grail for many Gamecube enthusiasts. Presenting criticism of some aspects of the program does not logically imply that people hate the program or the programmer. In the real world, nothing is perfect, and constructive criticism is necessary to fix problem areas.

 

[retKHAAAN]

So your comments regarding the dev being a failure for coding a loader that doesn't load every game aren't personal? I don't know. If someone said I failed at something I put a lot of time and energy into, I might take it personally. Good thing tueidj doesn't give two shits.

Another straw man fallacy. I never made any claim that the developer was a failure. What I said was that application fails to do what it claims to do (for the aforementioned reasons). Two entirely different claims.

The application doesn't claim to do anything. The dev writes the application and then shares with the public what it is capable of. If the devs application does not perform as advertised, the failure falls on the dev, not the application, right? So, unless you believe tueidj did in fact create the first sentient AI and the AI decided to not let your games work, you're stating that the dev failed in his ambitions. Where is the "constructive criticism" there?

However...
If the application works as advertised for some and not for others, does that equal failure, or just bad luck? What about those who are completely satisfied with the app?

As for people "ignoring the facts presented to them"...
What "facts" have been presented? Many people are having no issue. Most, if not all, of the people who are having an issue haven't said anything other than "it doesn't work". What is a dev supposed to do with that? He asked for reports in his release thread. USB Gecko dumps. If you can't provide those, then sit back and wait patiently for an update.

Lastly, to anyone who believes tueidj will not be supporting the app based on his attitude and responses to people who have offered anything less than helpful as far as bug testing/compatibility testing and the like...lol

 

[wiismodrome]

Interesting... another fallacious argument... this time by appeal to semantics.

 

[D34DL1N3R]

How about you guys quit arguing and focus more on my theories. I don't believe the security file can't be edited/hexed/whatever to work on a different Wii than it was originally created on. I only have one Wii and no original GC games, otherwise I'd do some looking into it myself.

 

[wiismodrome]

How about you guys quit arguing and focus more on my theories. I don't believe the security file can't be edited/hexed/whatever to work on a different Wii than it was originally created on. I only have one Wii and no original GC games, otherwise I'd do some looking into it myself.

The above sounds right. The program was designed to authorize retail discs only for use on the particular Wii which has performed the authorization. No idea about the possibility of editing at this point.

 

[DJPlace]

have you guys ever heard of flea market's or local game stores that have old games for sale look at those for GC... if i cared i would get a wii to try this again.. but if i do get a wii its only going be for rock band. (legit of course)

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Has anybody thought that the authorizations may have to do with a Wii's MAC address? Just tossing some ideas out there.

Regardless of the AP, Devolution is an amazing piece of work. And honestly, how hard is it to quit complaining and just install both Dios Mios AND Devolution at once? The only problem with Dios Mios (to me, anyway) is the lack of audio streaming in some games, namely Ikaruga.

Which I own on Dreamcast already, so go figure.

 

[JoostinOnline]

Just because there are some glitches (which I'm sure tueidj is working on), that doesn't make it a failure. This is something people have been trying to make for about 5 years. You can't expect everything to be perfect after only a few months of developing it.

Don't demand perfection when someone has just accomplished what was long believed to be impossible.

That's a fallacious argument (straw man). I have not demanded perfection.

I have merely pointed out that Devolution fails to do what it claims to do (load GC games from USB), at least with some retail discs for some users. My point is that the current implementation of the AP fails horribly, because it disallows the use of certain legitimate discs.

It's not fallacious. Devolution succeeds in loading GC games from USB, just not all of them. You are upset that it doesn't load all of them, which would be perfection.

Having a few glitches is not the equivalent of failing horribly.