Homebrew Why are hackers so against piracy?

[dubbz82]

the entire .3dsx format?

 

[TotalInsanity4]

the entire .3dsx format?

I'm assuming that that has something to do with the fact that there's a very specific set of permissions for Cubic Ninja and that it only grants ARM-11 kernel access, so it has to use files that the system can natively understand, like how the Wii could only use ELF files with the Twilight Hack. 3dsx has also become a standardized format for other homebrew and launchers, so I don't exactly see where the issue lies (I'm not a coder, that's just what I'm seeing from the sidelines)

 

[shinyquagsire23]

the entire .3dsx format?

Actually .3dsx is the standard for 3DS. Think of it like the .DOL for Wii/GC. You have your .DOLs for your actual homebrew and then your .WADs for channels. Same thing here. And then .3ds would be the same as .iso or something.

I use my balls cause greater the risk, greater the reward.

What reward?

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Actually .3dsx is the standard for 3DS. Think of it like the .DOL for Wii/GC. You have your .DOLs for your actual homebrew and then your .WADs for channels. Same thing here. And then .3ds would be the same as .iso or something.

Thanks, I figured it would be something like that

 

[WeedZ]

Thanks, I figured it would be something like that

Is it actually like that though? If you decompile a rom is the launcher extension .3dsx like actual gc games are .dol? Or is it the 'standard' because it's what smea has chosen?

 

[Margen67]

I'm assuming that that has something to do with the fact that there's a very specific set of permissions for Cubic Ninja and that it only grants ARM-11 kernel access, so it has to use files that the system can natively understand, like how the Wii could only use ELF files with the Twilight Hack. 3dsx has also become a standardized format for other homebrew and launchers, so I don't exactly see where the issue lies (I'm not a coder, that's just what I'm seeing from the sidelines)

You need Cubic Ninja+Ninjhax to run them (spiderninja is still useless at the time of this post)
and Gateway is probably never going to add support for launching it.
You can build homebrew as 3ds/cia yourself, but there are certain cases where homebrew only works as 3dsx. Therefore requiring a partial or possibly even complete recode.
And like I said before, since you can just launch them from a CN rom the developers don't see the point of putting so much effort into making cia/3ds versions of their homebrew.

Don't get me wrong though I DO want all homebrew to have 3ds/cia versions if possible.

 

[shinyquagsire23]

Is it actually like that though? If you decompile a rom is the launcher extension .3dsx like actual gc games are .dol? Or is it the 'standard' because it's what smea has chosen?

The standard was designed by one of the people over with DevKitARM, not smea or anyone doing ninjhax. It's designed around being portable, ie able to run from various entrypoints, not just ninjhax. .3dsx is completely separate from .3ds and .cia. And interestingly enough, the homebrew .DOL and the Gamecube ISO .DOL are completely separate formats, kinda stupid naming on their part.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

You need Cubic Ninja+Ninjhax to run them (spiderninja is still useless at the time of this post)
and Gateway is probably never going to add support for launching it.
You can build homebrew as 3ds/cia yourself, but there are certain cases where homebrew only works as 3dsx. Therefore requiring a partial or possibly even complete recode.
And like I said before, since you can just launch them from a CN rom the developers don't see the point of putting so much effort into making cia/3ds versions of their homebrew.

Don't get me wrong though I DO want all homebrew to have 3ds/cia versions if possible.

I was referring to Sunshell specifically

smealum, you don't have to answer, but since people are curious, did you invent the .3dsx format or did you use it because it's what Cubic Ninja allows?

 

[smealum]

I was referring to Sunshell specifically

smealum, you don't have to answer, but since people are curious, did you invent the .3dsx format or did you use it because it's what Cubic Ninja allows?

as shinyquagsire23 pointed out i didn't design the 3dsx format. that's not super relevant though since i stand by the decision to use it. the 3dsx format is much more versatile than the 3ds format in that each section is independently relocatable. this means that you don't have to have a fixed offset between your .text and your data/bss sections among other things. this might seem like a trivial detail, but when the only public exploit that allows for code exec on latest firmware (gspwn) only lets you overwrite pre-existing sections mapped to certain permissions, it becomes critical. in fact, you could easily get a bunch of 3dsx homebrew running on 9.7 right now (the reason why that hasnt been done yet is that cubic ninja doesnt have sdmc access by default which is very limiting; with another entrypoint that does though things would work fine), but the same is definitely not true for 3ds-only homebrew.

also, for the last time, it's 100% possible to convert a .3dsx to a .3ds, and then to a .cia. the opposite is not true though, you can't convert 3ds to 3dsx. so that's why i stand by that decision. we didn't make it lightly, noone likes introducing new frivolous formats (except idiots and people who don't plan on having their work actually used by anyone) and we only did so because we believed we had good reason.

edit : only replied here because i got a mention, just saw the title of the thread; the choice of using 3DSX as a format had nothing to do with piracy, so if that's what people are trying to imply, they're either misinformed, idiots, or both.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

as shinyquagsire23 pointed out i didn't design the 3dsx format. that's not super relevant though since i stand by the decision to use it. the 3dsx format is much more versatile than the 3ds format in that each section is independently relocatable. this means that you don't have to have a fixed offset between your .text and your data/bss sections among other things. this might seem like a trivial detail, but when the only public exploit that allows for code exec on latest firmware (gspwn) only lets you overwrite pre-existing sections mapped to certain permissions, it becomes critical. in fact, you could easily get a bunch of 3dsx homebrew running on 9.7 right now (the reason why that hasnt been done yet is that cubic ninja doesnt have sdmc access by default which is very limiting; with another entrypoint that does though things would work fine), but the same is definitely not true for 3ds-only homebrew.

also, for the last time, it's 100% possible to convert a .3dsx to a .3ds, and then to a .cia. the opposite is not true though, you can't convert 3ds to 3dsx. so that's why i stand by that decision. we didn't make it likely, noone likes introducing new frivolous formats (except idiots and people who don't plan on having their work actually used by anyone) and we only did so because we believed we had good reason.

edit : only replied here because i got a mention, just saw the title of the thread; the choice of using 3DSX as a format had nothing to do with piracy, so if that's what people are trying to imply, their either misinformed, idiots, or both.

There you have it, folks

Edit: And thank you, Smea, really, I appreciate your reply. It got a very informed reply in here and put to rest an 18-page conspiracy theory

 

[WeedZ]

as shinyquagsire23 pointed out i didn't design the 3dsx format. that's not super relevant though since i stand by the decision to use it. the 3dsx format is much more versatile than the 3ds format in that each section is independently relocatable. this means that you don't have to have a fixed offset between your .text and your data/bss sections among other things. this might seem like a trivial detail, but when the only public exploit that allows for code exec on latest firmware (gspwn) only lets you overwrite pre-existing sections mapped to certain permissions, it becomes critical. in fact, you could easily get a bunch of 3dsx homebrew running on 9.7 right now (the reason why that hasnt been done yet is that cubic ninja doesnt have sdmc access by default which is very limiting; with another entrypoint that does though things would work fine), but the same is definitely not true for 3ds-only homebrew.

also, for the last time, it's 100% possible to convert a .3dsx to a .3ds, and then to a .cia. the opposite is not true though, you can't convert 3ds to 3dsx. so that's why i stand by that decision. we didn't make it likely, noone likes introducing new frivolous formats (except idiots and people who don't plan on having their work actually used by anyone) and we only did so because we believed we had good reason.

edit : only replied here because i got a mention, just saw the title of the thread; the choice of using 3DSX as a format had nothing to do with piracy, so if that's what people are trying to imply, their either misinformed, idiots, or both.

The debate was if you were one of the developers who placed your own piracy checks or if you just didn't go out of your way to include any method for launching. Theory being one is morally acceptable and the other isnt.

Yeah, shits got that deep.

Sooo.... /thread?

 

[pdensco]

best hacker you want to know is anonymous

 

[Nickname863]

Because a lot of hackers aren't criminals.
EDIT: Don't want to say that every pirate is a crimal (eventhough my wording sounds like exactly that)

 

[The Real Jdbye]

Don't worry, I gotcha

But yeah, actively blocking piracy is kind of ballsy, but I think the only person that's really trying to do that currently is Tueidj (Devolution) and soon Roxas75 (3DS EmuNAND and soon-to-be homebrew launcher), the others just aren't coding loaders into their programs (whether they're pro or anti piracy is beside the point)

Roxas75 is not anti-piracy.
The KARL team is though.

 

[WeedZ]

best hacker you want to know is anonymous

maybe 15 years ago

 

[flame1234]

Pirates are not your average customer. And pirates buy more than the average customer, around 50% more. But that is not what this thread is about.
If you went Gabe Newell on that data (more discount sales = more sales $$$), you'd conclude that we need more pirates for a more robust game industry.
PSP = Very successful. And lots of piracy.
DS = More successful than PSP. But it had less piracy because its users are younger than PSP users.
Not sure where I'm going with this...

I guess you'd have to ask each developer individually their reasons. My guess is they vary. And it seems most don't want to talk about it.

 

[dubbz82]

Pirates are not your average customer. And pirates buy more than the average customer, around 50% more. But that is not what this thread is about.
If you went Gabe Newell on that data (more discount sales = more sales $$$), you'd conclude that we need more pirates for a more robust game industry.
PSP = Very successful. And lots of piracy.
DS = More successful than PSP. But it had less piracy because its users are younger than PSP users.
Not sure where I'm going with this...

I guess you'd have to ask each developer individually their reasons. My guess is they vary. And it seems most don't want to talk about it.

You are correct (at least on average) with pirates buying more games. Some of the pirates that I know of have steam libraries well into the thousands of games, and on the whole own significantly more console games than most "normal" people. I can only speculate as to exactly why this is the case, but piracy for most actually doesn't seem to be a deterrent to legitimate purchases.

 

[duffmmann]

I don't see why people complain about stuff like this, there are plenty of hackers out there with morals where they believe piracy is wrong, that's fine, they are entitled to that opinion. But it's worth noting that there are plenty of just as talented hackers out there with different morals, just look at Nintendont vs Devolution, and now Pasta CFW vs the initial purpose of Ninjhax.

Point I'm making is yes for the pirate it may be frustrating to not be able to pirate your games, but if someone has developed some sort of anti piracy hack, it's a good bet that another hacker will take that to the next level or study what they did and enable that piracy. Essentially, patience is a virtue.

 

[hippy dave]

Keeping it classy as always.

 

[The Catboy]

Personally if I made an exploit, I wouldn't care if someone else used it for piracy, but I wouldn't make it for that reason.
I am pro progressing the homebrew scene which includes pirate ROM loaders and emulators, but not in favor of being one to create them. Basically I am against piracy, but not against others using my code for whatever they want. It would be hypocritical of me to release my source, then tell people they can't do what they want with it.