Kanji Tatsumi and LGBT Representation in Persona 4


As some of you may have noticed, a certain game has released recently that’s caused quite a stir over its depiction of LGBT people. I haven’t played either Last of Us game, and haven’t followed the story behind the game closely enough to have any thoughts on Neil Druckmann and co., so I’m not gonna talk about them specifically. But the whole situation’s got me thinking about LGBT representation in games, specifically in the context of another game that’s been in the spotlight recently due to a PC port: Persona 4.

I’m in favour of more representation for LGBT people in media, and I think Persona 4 does a great job in this department. But there’s a growing contingent of fans, even though they might be a vocal minority, that have put the game on blast lately for not going far enough. So I want to talk a little about what one of its characters, Kanji Tatsumi, means to me and why I think he’s a terrific example of LGBT representation. I’m hoping framing the discussion in this way will help keep some of the toxicity of the TLOU2 discussion at bay.


Let’s start with the basics—Persona 4 is a game about helping people deal with their repressed emotions. Each dungeon is a physical manifestation of their psyche, and the boss will be their Shadow, a distorted version of how they view the parts of themselves they can’t accept. Kanji’s dungeon is a men’s bathhouse; his Shadow is a lispy, flirtatious man running around in a towel. The message seems fairly obvious: Kanji is a closeted homosexual. But things aren’t as cut and dry as that.

I think this is where a lot of people’s issues with Kanji’s story come from. It feels a little like queerbaiting—teasing a queer character early on to get the attention of fans desperate for LGBT representation, only to backpedal later and say “Don’t worry guys, he’s not really gay!” I understand the frustration at that, but I think dismissing Kanji as a bad LGBT character simply because of it does a massive disservice to the story he tells about the complexity of sexuality.


Kanji’s family owns a textile shop, which leads to Kanji developing a knack for knitting and sewing at a young age. He gets mocked for being too girly and becomes isolated from the world, as neither sex can accept a man with such feminine interests. Partially to reaffirm his masculinity and partially to solidify the wedge between him and the world that rejected him, Kanji adopts an overly tough and brutish persona, replacing people’s contempt for him with fear. But that insecurity over his lack of masculinity stays embedded, and possibly manifests as his confused sexuality.

We first see Kanji’s attraction to men when he meets Naoto Shirogane, a woman who’s presenting as a man at the time. (Whether or not Naoto is another example of queerbaiting is a whole other can of worms I won’t get into.) After discovering she’s a woman, he continues being attracted to her. Of course, the root of his attraction to Naoto is that she’s one of the few people to accept him and make him feel valued or safe. But it leaves the question of his orientation murkier, leading to cries of noncommittal representation being lobbied against the game.


It’s important to note, however, that just because Kanji’s only love interest is female, that doesn’t stop him from being a queer character. Nothing definitive is ever stated about Kanji’s sexuality, and more crucially, Kanji seems just as fervent for answers as his fans. For example, when the prospect of Naoto entering a beauty pageant comes up, putting her in a position where she would dress more traditionally femininely than she normally does, Kanji begs her to do so as it would “clear up a few questions for [him].”

The idea of not understanding your own sexuality may seem alien to some people—whether you’re straight or gay or anywhere in between, you just like what you like, right?—but the complexity and range of feelings present can be hard to navigate as a teenager, especially for those who have had self-doubt instilled in them from isolating experiences as a youth.


Personally speaking, I consider myself mostly straight, as I’ve always had a slight attraction to men since I hit puberty. As silly as it sounds now, the underwhelming nature of that attraction drove me crazy as a kid, as it left me without a comfortable label and identity. Girls caught my attention everywhere I went, yet I couldn’t help but notice—and appreciate—men with some degree of regularity. I didn’t think I was gay, but those pesky thoughts reminded I wasn’t totally straight either. My conception of bisexuality at the time was that it was a purely equal, balanced attraction to either sex, so I couldn’t find any sense of identity there either. I would try to force thoughts into my head, to cut out the unwelcome ones and force myself to be either gay or straight. I didn’t care which one; I just wanted to know where I belonged.

This led to panic and rumination over my sexuality. I’d heard stories of men who wouldn’t come out of the closet until middle age, sometimes having a wife and kids, so I worried that I was gay and would waste much of my life in the closet. Maybe I was gay and I was just trying to suppress my feelings after growing up in a household with four older brothers who were constantly hurling gay jokes, usually at me. Or maybe I was straight and the vague attraction to men was implanted in me from internalizing those jokes. Maybe I was straight and was simply so desperate for acceptance and love that I’d be willing to settle for a man. I realize these ideas are ridiculous, but without any grounding sense of identity back then, I was floundering to simply understand who I was. After all, I’d never seen anyone going through what I was going through, so I must have been the only one. It must just be a problem with my screwy head.

I wish there was a more narratively satisfying conclusion to this story, but after a few years of this, more pressing concerns came up and I simply decided that I was happy to call myself straight and live that way, but to keep my mind open if the opportunity to explore those feelings ever arose. Curiously, as I stopped being so hard on myself about it, those feelings slowly subsided (though never disappeared), until, somewhat recently, a friend came out of the closet to me and all those feelings rushed back to me harder than I’d ever felt them before. After that, though, they’ve waned again. I’d be lying if I said I still didn’t have some lingering frustration at the lack of consistency in my sexuality, but I’m still taking things one day at a time.


I can’t help but wonder, however, if seeing a story like Kanji’s would have helped me back then. Some simple reassurance that things aren’t as easy for everyone as they seem sometimes. Something to let me know it’s okay to not understand yourself, as long as you can accept the answers you find in your own time. I realize there's another side to this coin, that there are gay gamers out there who needed to see someone like Kanji fully embrace his homosexuality and be out and proud, and I empathize with how hard it would be to see him heel turn and, conveniently, unknowingly be attracted to a woman the entire time. Regardless, I think the backlash to his story is a bit overblown, and even reductive to the case for LGBT representation. Sure, I'd love to see a fully out Persona character someday, but to pretend that Kanji doesn't represent the LGBT community is to ignore the huge, complex spectrum of sexuality that’s out there.
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So it is almost as though merely having a character be in the gay alphabet soup persuasion is not enough and you might actually want to tell a good story and if you are going to give a character a trait then you probably want to have it actually mean something in the story.

Shocker.
 
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I personally think japanese people still treat LGBT people as a joke.

In persona 5, there were some overly flamboyant gay characters that portrayed as if they are sexual predators and hitting Ryuji.

In FF7 remake, we have Andrea who designed to look gay although he's never referred as gay.

In Deadly Premonition 2, there was a trans person who became a murder victim and the investigation team referred the victim using the victim's original name which is very disrespectful to trans community.

(I am a bisexual person btw)
 
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@eriol33
What would you suggest be done about caricatures in comedy? Which stereotypes would be acceptable to make fun of and which are too disrespectful to entertain?
 
I am still unsure about this Persona 5 thing.

The scene in question was shown.

Two flamboyant gay types were shown as hitting/being seriously suggestive to some guys on a beach.

The same scenario happened to me in real life (albeit I was at a river side train station. Guy liked my legs it seems, and while I don't exactly have those road racer cyclist calves I do walk, skateboard and ride a bike everywhere so they don't exactly lack definition either), seems common enough elsewhere as well (I have certainly very forward people of all combinations of genitals and attractions said same, often works for them as well). I am not sure what harm befell me that day, pretty sure I did not care actually.

I asked in the thread discussing it. Someone said "harmful stereotypes". I have no idea where to draw a line if we are going to go down that path.

So I watched the FF7 scene.

Is there more after that (doing a search for FF7 andrea says minor supporting character so I don't know what goes there)
Do things need to be explicitly stated though? Equally if it is just a look and he is a frontman of a club... the incidence rates of non gay strippers and those doing drag is also a rather known factor. Could it be that? Failing that I am back to if you are going to give a character a trait then best have it work into the story and their growth throughout it in some way.


Deadly Premonition 2 then I would need more context (assuming there even in a let's play/longplay/play of the mission in question I would rather not spoil it for myself right now as I am looking forward to that one at some point in the nearer than not future). Murder reports will tend to mention birth names, maiden names, street names, nicknames and whatever else. Is it that? Had the character in question changed their name by deed poll or whatever the local equivalent might be?
 
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FAST6191 I feel what I am about to say will probably be one of those situations where we will end up having to agree to disagree on.

In Deadly Premonition 2 the trans character that dies is constantly deadnamed which in the real world is pretty much the worst thing you can do to a trans person


Deadnaming: What Is It and Why Is It Harmful you may wonder?

For many — though not all — people who are transgender, undergoing a name change can be an affirming step in the transition process. It can help a person who’s transgender and the people in their lives begin to see them as the gender they know themselves to be. It can also alleviate discomfort that may be associated with one’s old name.

Unfortunately, many people may struggle to adhere to a trans person’s new, affirmed name. In some situations, other people may refuse to acknowledge the change altogether. And in situations that involve government-issued identification, having a legal name that doesn’t align with one’s affirmed name can cause staff and personnel to inadvertently refer to a trans person by the wrong name.

This is what’s referred to as deadnaming.

Deadnaming occurs when someone, intentionally or not, refers to a person who’s transgender by the name they used before they transitioned. You may also hear it described as referring to someone by their “birth name” or their “given name.”

This can occur anywhere in a trans person’s life, from personal relationships to the classroom or workplace.

How does deadnaming affect people who are transgender?
When you refer to a person who is transgender by their non-affirmed name, it can feel invalidating. It can cause them to feel like you don’t respect their identity, you don’t support their transition, or that you don’t wish to put forth the effort to make this necessary change.

If you do so in front of a friend who doesn’t already know that trans person, it can effectively “out” them, or signal to your friend that they’re transgender. This may or may not be something that they want other people to know.

Not only can being outed cause stress, it can also subject that person to harassment and discrimination.

People who are transgender experience discrimination across the board, particularly if they’re known, believed, or discovered to be transgender. The National Center for Transgender Equality’s 2015 U.S. Trans Survey found that 46 percent of transgender people surveyed had been verbally harassed — and 9 percent had been physically assaulted — just for being transgender.
 
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Different cultures, different ways of viewing things. Stop forcing western progressivism into Japan. Please. For the love of God and 神様.
 
just accepting people for what they are isn't really western progressivism, it's just being kind and good.

there definitely is a problem with japanese culture as a whole being kind of screwed up in anything deviating from status quo. and there's no real issue in pointing that out or downright criticizing that.
 
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Where you said the character perspective of Kanji might have been helpful to you when you were younger, I had that kind of experience. I feel like this game and its characters really helped me try to understand myself, when I was a young teen, playing it for the first time. It really left an impact.

Even if the representation might not be considered to be that good by today's standards, purely because people want very stark, black and white labeled characters that they can point at and go "yay representation!"... I'll always respect the character writing within P4.

...even if those scumbag Atlus jerks got rid of the gay Yosuke romance option that we all deserved.
 
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I am familiar with the concept of deadnaming. Consider it a dick move as well. Broadly similar reasons to those mentioned there (though less harm might be assigned, and certainly would not be the worst thing, but we will get to that shortly), and if nothing else where is the harm in using someone's chosen name (it happens for nicknames, pet names, professional names, married names, deed poll, assumed names, stage names...)?

As far as worst thing then I try not to view people as that fragile. That said much like the person yelling with headphones on we are generally in our own little worlds and in my case it is basically impossible to insult me or say anything that is not a threat of physical harm (which I may still care to evaluate the merits of). I then find it odd on many people are so upset by words, especially from people that don't know them and matter to them less than that. Likewise if you seek affirmation from others all the time, especially randoms, you are going to end up bloody and bruised by default... that is tantamount to self harm from where I sit.
I would also ponder whether people feel bad because they are told to feel bad about it. Foreign swear words and derogatory terms are just noise to most, and differences between places speaking the same language get even more fun, history does another (terms offensive today might not have been back when and vice versa).

I wanted however to know the context in the game as so much these days seems to be leading to a nice boy who cried wolf scenario, or overblown, or even completely disingenuous and counter to logic I might go with. To that end question and seek context has to be the default for me, especially if it might abridge the options available for stories that might be told or experienced.
 
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First of all I knew you would know about deadnaming the reason I went into detail about it was for others who perhaps didn't know.

Here is the bit we disagree on and we have discussed it somewhat previously. I firmly believe that the worst weapon in the world can be words.

Words used wrongly can lead to all sorts of mental health issues for the person on the receiving end. I don't want to go too much into this as we are somewhat deviating from the subject of this thread.

As for the context of the game I dont really see what more needs to be said. Trans character dies. The police deadnames them a huge number of times. Nothing is meantioned in the game about how deadnaming is wrong. What possible further context is needed. There is absolutely zero reason why the deadnaming should take place.
 
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@FGFlann I personally think these "comedy" tropes should be dead already in 2020:

1. sexual assault as drama: a boy character flipping his bestfriend's skirt to see her pant, touching her butt and getting smacked because of being pervert. Imagine your bestfriend doing that to you, you probably will be traumatized and lost trust.
2. fatshaming: Hanako in persona 4. It's deeply rooted from stereotyped popularized by Botako in Doraemon.
3. gamp gay: showing gay characters as overly flamboyant, sexual predators, and making those characters are only defined by this one aspect. While you can meet those people in pride events, most gay people I met are pretty "normal". It's harmful for gay people as it create a misconception to non-informed people. Why cannot they just write gay characters treated as "normal" as possible? Something like Raymond Holt from Brooklyn 99 where he's shown to be gay? or something like Alex Denver from Supergirl?
 
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The very simple answer to why you wouldn't depict a character as "normal" in comedy, is because it isn't funny. The use of caricature in comedy goes a lot further than depictions of gays as flamboyant, it encompasses everything you can find in a culture; draws out its quirks and magnifies them for comedic effect. No identity group is inherently deserving of a pass from scrutiny.

The question of harm is also relative to what is being depicted. In my opinion, the example given for Persona 5 is mostly a problem of individual preconceptions: I.E the problem is with you and what you think about the identity group in question, not what is displayed on screen. A flamboyant man with a stereotypical lisp can be funny to look at and not represent that person in a negative light or any identity group they belong to. It is their actions that speak to the strength or weakness of their character, and not surface level traits. This is the very lesson one should be learning from Kanji's journey as a character.
 
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"as it create a misconception to non-informed people."
That is a slippery slope that is.
Where would you draw a line there?
Do I fail to depict a member of a political party as a savage for fear that I give a misconception to non informed people? As it stands political polarisation already has several that would see their fellow countrymen that might well live down down the road, work in the same places, shop in the same shops, worry about health, worry about their kids... be unpardonable cretins.
Is it only in "non dominant" groups (whatever that might be) that I am not allowed to depict what may well be an accurate and observed on many occasions trait, indeed one that may be common to humans as a whole?
What if I am doing historical things and the definition or words has changed?
What if where I am a word is fine but a horrible insult somewhere else?
What if people are divided on the concept in general? I can find some seriously nutbar definitions for things but are accepted by some in academia (though whether that is a useful metric we may have to discuss as well).
How many non informed people does there have to be before I have to consider them? I am sure I can find someone out there that thinks phrenology is a good but the overwhelming majority of people would realise it is complete nonsense. What goes?
Even without that you are likely to find nutbars (and pundits) blaming something on a work of fiction, see The Catcher in the Rye, that lady that died of exposure after looking for buried treasure depicted in Fargo, people that completely missed the point of films (Fight Club is a popular example here).

I start going down that path and I soon end up with boring as anything characters which means I might as well not have bothered.

A favourite "genre" of video I like to watch is some expert comments on depiction in films and games of things. Medics, lawyers, those that know weapons, those that know computers, those that know physics, those that know criminal investigation, those that know history... in most cases everything is simplified and in more it is inaccurate as anything.
Some of it dangerous and damaging (short version never handle a weapon like you see in TV and film unless you know otherwise, and CPR is a brutal thing -- you will likely break ribs and end up knackered from it, and outside of a hospital the rates are low but more than 0 which is what doing nothing probably gets you. Or if you prefer anything you are an expert in will likely be depicted laughably in most things that try, this applies to just about everything).

AmandaRose said:
Here is the bit we disagree on and we have discussed it somewhat previously. I firmly believe that the worst weapon in the world can be words.

Words used wrongly can lead to all sorts of mental health issues for the person on the receiving end. I don't want to go too much into this as we are somewhat deviating from the subject of this thread.

As for the context of the game I dont really see what more needs to be said. Trans character dies. The police deadnames them a huge number of times. Nothing is meantioned in the game about how deadnaming is wrong. What possible further context is needed. There is absolutely zero reason why the deadnaming should take place.

What was the person's legal name? What was their position in the community (my mate transitioned last year unknown to most in their old town, if doing background on them for a security clearance what do?). Does everything need a moral lesson? There is plenty of potential for context.

As for words. For them to be the worst thing then I would have to wonder how much physical trauma has ever been sustained or witnessed.
Simple observation has that people can be susceptible to them, and probably even know a few ways to make it worse for many as well. Still find it hard to want to shut down anything from a legal front and even an ethical pronouncement is not going to get too far for me.
 
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I love my gamp gay people, especially at clothing stores.

My best experience ever where a super flamboyant gay person. I was trying out a new suit for a business trip, and he was like all the stereotypical talking "hmm no darling, that don't suit you at all!" - "mmmhmm that just right" etc. I loved every second of it. And man I looked awesome in that suit as well. I wish he still worked there... but he were to good for that store.

Let me quote ERB history, Obama Vs. Mitch Romney - "Need to stop hatin' on gays, let 'em teach you how to dress"
 
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@eriol33 OK, let's say we ban all three of those. Come next year, what else is gonna get cancelled? Then the year after that? Or do you think people are naive to where they think that's where the calls for censorship will stop?

We've already seen people getting cancelled this year. There are some who deserve it like the situation going on with the FGC, EVO, and the Smash community, but then you have all of these other women who are just using #MeToo to cancel whoever they dislike for whatever reason. (Angry Joe and ProJared, anyone?) Why should we believe it's gonna stop at just those people? Who's to say that, if a member of my family just so happens to get into an altercation with someone who would use a phone video to destroy not just their reputation (especially since they're a whole lot more conservative than I kind of am in some ways), but also that of their friends and family who may not always share their views? Because that is what's been happening these past two months now.

https://townhall.com/columnists/ajr...e-a-shame-if-anything-happened-to-it-n2572444

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2020/06/19/rolfes-stepmother-fired-from-job-n2570934

I mean, what is the moral message these people are ultimately communicating, when you get right down to it? It's OK to run from the past, erase it like it doesn't exist, and to act as if nothing ever happened of note to explain how we got here. It's not even just statues getting torn down anymore (which were erected for reasons more complex that the mob doesn't care to listen to); team names are getting changed, even if the team members themselves don't see it as a slur and a Native American made the logo for the team.

I think people need a reminder:

 
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