Nintendo claiming ownership on Youtube videos featuring their product

[FAST6191]

Seems more like Nintendo wants to maintain an iron grip on the way their games are perceived than anything else.

Given that they and others in the industry pay an absolute fortune to advertising, marketing and related fields (sometimes the same or higher orders of magnitude than the game dev costs) that does not seem such an outlandish idea.

 

[TripleSMoon]

LPs are easy. Good LPs are really quite hard.

I mean anyone can sit down, play a video game, and record themselves doing it. But to make it interesting, to give it a cutting edge, that takes ingenuity. Unfortunately that also means we get PewDiePie from it.

Still to say LPs aren't a "real job" or, hell, any internet video in general (this policy could extend to reviews, speedruns, montages, etc) is really quite elitist and stupid to say. It's an exciting new frontier in jobs, and it'd suck if it got hampered by a really dumb enforcement of policy.

Precisely. And the ones who make good LPs are generally going to be the ones that get popular, and hence make the LPer enough money to make that a source of income.

By the way, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the GameGrumps in all this. They're the only LP channel that my girlfriend and I watch religiously (not to mention the only "TV show" that I watch, period), and I think they're a perfect example. Not only are they downright hilarious to the point that people are animating and remixing their funniest moments (yes, really), but they actually have some pretty interesting, semi-serious discussions and debates about what really makes a game, etc. Is it mostly just stupid humor? Yeah, but it's made endearing by the fact that Jon and Arin are naturally really funny people, and the show is "them being themselves."

I highly doubt the majority of GameGrumps viewers watch the show for "free gameplay footage so I don't have to play the game," as much as they watch it for the commentary, and so many people have been introduced to more obscure games because of them. Heck, they even got me to buy Sonic '06 for Christ's sake, something that I would never do or enjoy (almost done with my playthrough, btw) if it weren't for the Grumps' humorous viewpoint on the whole situation. It's also one of their most popular LPs on the channel, which I highly doubt would be the case if it was just any other old LP of Sonic '06.

 

[Rydian]

Other people may be different, but I know that although I watch a lot of "Let's Play" content (~3-5 hours a day), I don't recall a point where I ever watched them for the actual game. I generally tune into "Let's Play" content because I enjoy the personality or the humor of the person or group that makes the video. The actual game running in the background serves as little more than a backdrop to any conversations/observations that occur outside of that. So really, when you think about it, I'm basically watching ~3-5 hours of advertising for a certain game each and every day while I'm listening to a podcast, so that's something to be considered.

Far Lands Or Bust is a great example of this concept.



That's episode #238. over two hundred damned episodes of the guy just walking in one direction in (an older version of) Minecraft, exploring the terrain.

P.S. - As a side note, does anyone know why the average IQ of a YouTube commenter (at least based on post content) is like 45 below the population average? Those guys are animals.

Children just getting their first taste of testosterone.

 

[EzekielRage]

As a YouTube video creator (original content only) and hobby game designer (No fangames) I understand BOTH sides of the debatte and I'd like to share my thoughts on this.
First I'd like to start with technalities that DO NOT refelect my views:

• As copyright holder Nintendo has every right to do with their stuff whatever the fuck they want
• As player you are privileged to play a game somebody made for your enjoyment
• When you pay for a game, it is not YOURS - it still belongs to the creator, you just have the right to play it since you paid for that right (this will be important later)
• Per copyright you are not allowed to use any part of the game for your personal profit

Now with that being said, here are my sixteen dollars and seven cents for this topic:
Let's Play videos are a nice but ultimately redundant thing. It is like watching a football game on TV, really, where somebody else plays a game for your enjoyment. Entertaining? Of course! Redundant? Absolutely. Personally I watch A LOT of StarCraft II replays simply because I want to learn from the best. ESports are a new thing and will grow tremendously in the next few years, beyond the borders of conventional gaming. Unfortunately the entire discussion concentrates on let's play videos here and NOT on the real topic at hand.
You see, once you realize where Nintendo is going with this you see how far the impacts are. Smooth McGroove is a fantastic musician and his videos will be monetized by Nintendo as well since he acapella remixes Nintendo music. It is his own work and his own creation but he gets snabbed because he is a Nintendo fan. Stemage does this fantastic thing called Metroid Metal and he too will see the result of this. In both of these cases nothing happened yet, but it eventually will.
Because such is the nature of big companies. Those decisions are not made by the people that create the games, the people that write the music or even Iwata who is the standup guy for the decisions. Those decisions are made by a legal department, men in suits that never played a game and couldn't care less. And that is the entire problem.
Warner Brothers got rightfully sued by the creators of Nyan Cat for using Nyan Cat in Scribblenauts without asking. Yet the very same company, Warner Brothers, is a huge driving force behind suing other people for THEIR copyright, want to enact PIPA and SOPA and are all for control over the internet.
Now this relates to this topic. You see there are A LOT of people who upload soundtracks, cutscenes and other things from games to YouTube. The problem here lies within the fact that those people did nothing but just upload other people's work and get paid for it, if monetizing is available. And this is where the idea originated: Nintendo wanted people not to get money for their work. Harmless enough.
But the problem lies deeper: Let's players who ultimately invest tons of hours into a game and even some time and work into a GOOD let's play get snubbed over. Remixers and re-creators that do homages and sometimes even completely self made things get the boot because they use things owned by Nintendo. It has been like that for movies since years, and now Nintendo was the first to do the same thing. I have a video on my channel, 100% self made stuff that was blocked for monetizing because a scene in it LOOKED SIMILAR to a scene from a movie and thus they believed that scene could be from that movie and they shut of monetizing.
Now the main question is, should you be able to get money from something you did not create yourself and if you did create it yourself in parts, how far does that effect the monetizing of your work in contrast to Nintendo's work?
I go back to Smooth McGroove since he is a great guy. As said, he created acapella music of videogame tunes. He does it all himself, he uses famous melodies. Similar to what Nick Pitera does, really. So he has 100% of the work, except for that fact that he uses tunes by other people.
Companies, especially Nintendo, want to keep their franchises safe above all else. They don't want people to use their stuff because it's about branding. They shut down a porn parody of super Mario because Mario does not do porn. Nobody cared that the movie was bad and a parody, it was shut down. Because branding matters.
Since you don't own the game you bought (see, I told you that gets important) you are only allowed to play it. You are not allowed to do anything else with it. And if your penis doesn't fit into the disc hole (poor you if it does) what else can you do with a game anyways? Record it of course. But you are not allowed to since technically its not your game.
So how can we fix this? Not really. It's up to the companies to think about that. Nintendo wants you to use their service for their stuff. That is the sole reason Sony created the share button for the PS4. Not to make life easier for you, but to control where you upload your let's plays. Or do you think Sony will pay you for uploading something to their station?
Here are a few things Nintendo COULD do:

• Split monetizing: Have a standard deal contractually settled for everyone who has original work with Nintendo content. They did that with Twilight Symphony. They check if your work is okay by their rules and if it is they split the money you/they get from the video. Probably not going to happen since it is a long and expensive process.
• Monetize only for 1:1 content: Just monetize things that are unchanged like soundtrack videos or cutscenes. Probably not going to happen due to manpower being involved
• Establish new rules for monetizing: By establishing new rules, they could easily agree that Let's Players, reviewers and the likes may use their stuff. Very likely since this is what needs to happen anyway. If you do a video review or a lets play or a remix of one of their tunes, Nintendo does not monetize since you created this to support them and their games. This can easily be done with a simple checkbox or tag.

There are of course other things that could be done but for now we have to live with the fact that other companies WILL follow suit. Nintendo was the first to do so and will not be the last so get ready for this discussion to go on.

 

[TripleSMoon]

I agree with you, EzekielRage (not quoting because long quotes are obnoxious), split revenue should be the way to go. True, it is Nintendo's games, but it is YOUR work, your recording, commentary, creation, etc involved... So who says that Nintendo has a right to get ALL revenue off your video?

Split revenue (perhaps Nintendo gets a certain percentage of ads on your video, but not all of them) would be the only fair way to go, in my opinion.

 

[FAST6191]

True, it is Nintendo's games, but it is YOUR work, your recording, commentary, creation, etc involved... So who says that Nintendo has a right to get ALL revenue off your video?

Copyright law, it is called a derived work.

 

[ilman]

I'm no lawyer (even though I've played a lot of Phoenix Wright ) but how do I say this? The content is neither Nintendo's, nor the Youtuber's(since this concerns more than LPers).
If we have only Nintendo, their game won't be played, recorded and uploaded to Youtube. Nintendo gets no marketing, but at the same time nobody gets to experience their content for free.
If we have only the Youtuber, their content wouldn't be possible without Nintendo's content(LPers won't have anything to commentate, Reviewers won't have anything to review, etc.)
In the end, the content is a result of both Nintendo's work and the Youtubers. That's why the ad revenue for the video should be split between the two.
But, of course, law comes in and it just can't allow for split revenue(at least I don't think it can).
So...the law is worse than the mafia.

 

[TripleSMoon]

Copyright law, it is called a derived work.

It was a rhetorical question. Of course the law says that, unfortunately. But I really don't think it should.

 

[FAST6191]

@xwatchmanx I think that was one of those what happens when the rhetorical question meets the glib remark situations.

I'm no lawyer (even though I've played a lot of Phoenix Wright ) but how do I say this? The content is neither Nintendo's, nor the Youtuber's(since this concerns more than LPers).
If we have only Nintendo, their game won't be played, recorded and uploaded to Youtube. Nintendo gets no marketing, but at the same time nobody gets to experience their content for free.
If we have only the Youtuber, their content wouldn't be possible without Nintendo's content(LPers won't have anything to commentate, Reviewers won't have anything to review, etc.)
In the end, the content is a result of both Nintendo's work and the Youtubers. That's why the ad revenue for the video should be split between the two.
But, of course, law comes in and it just can't allow for split revenue(at least I don't think it can).
So...the law is worse than the mafia.

Re lawyering and phoenix wright, at least as far as non Japanese law (though even there it is of dubious merit) goes that is for the best.
As for the rest reviews and criticism are one of the big three noted exceptions to copyright (the other two being satire and education) so this does mainly concern let's play, tribute and stuff that is not reviewing, satire or criticism.
I do not think anybody is doubting that producing video content can be a very involved task however to spin it another way I do not think anybody doubts making a coherent mix of a song or song from samples is a very involved task but it still does not mean sampling should be free. As Nintendo was there first...
Recompense for work in this scenario usually does end up in front of a judge where most of it is either fines or perhaps more applicably in cases of patent infringement though both of those tend to be "out of court" settlements. The enforcement issue also becomes tricky (this message brought to you by FAST6191's ROM hacking guide -- it is a guide to ROM hacking) if youtube is not the sole advertiser.

Finally a question for those more versed in Japanese web stuff than I -- it seems the whole Japan has the same tech but does it different thing has reappeared here (see Winny for a nice earlier example) and though Japan does use youtube I can not let nicovideo and possibly zoome slip by unnoticed. What has Nintendo done there both in general and maybe on this sort of thing?

 

[the_randomizer]

Update: Nintendo will not remove videos of LPs

"As part of our on-going push to ensure Nintendo content is shared across social media channels in an appropriate and safe way, we became a YouTube partner and as such in February 2013 we registered our copyright content in the YouTube database. For most fan videos this will not result in any changes, however, for those videos featuring Nintendo-owned content, such as images or audio of a certain length, adverts will now appear at the beginning, next to or at the end of the clips. We continually want our fans to enjoy sharing Nintendo content on YouTube, and that is why, unlike other entertainment companies, we have chosen not to block people using our intellectual property."

http://www.gamefront.com/nintendo-flexing-copyright-clout-on-youtube-lets-play-channels/

 

[Lestworth]

Update: Nintendo will not remove videos of LPs

"As part of our on-going push to ensure Nintendo content is shared across social media channels in an appropriate and safe way, we became a YouTube partner and as such in February 2013 we registered our copyright content in the YouTube database. For most fan videos this will not result in any changes, however, for those videos featuring Nintendo-owned content, such as images or audio of a certain length, adverts will now appear at the beginning, next to or at the end of the clips. We continually want our fans to enjoy sharing Nintendo content on YouTube, and that is why, unlike other entertainment companies, we have chosen not to block people using our intellectual property."

http://www.gamefront.com/nintendo-flexing-copyright-clout-on-youtube-lets-play-channels/

This ... really isn't news for anyone, we already knew Nintendo's stance on this as it was, and their lack of clarity on it as well.

 

[KingdomBlade]

So how can we fix this? Not really. It's up to the companies to think about that. Nintendo wants you to use their service for their stuff. That is the sole reason Sony created the share button for the PS4. Not to make life easier for you, but to control where you upload your let's plays. Or do you think Sony will pay you for uploading something to their station?
There are of course other things that could be done but for now we have to live with the fact that other companies WILL follow suit. Nintendo was the first to do so and will not be the last so get ready for this discussion to go on.

First off, I presume that most decent LPers will be relying on capture cards even when the PS4 comes out, it'd be insanely stupid for them to not. People who make gaming videos on Youtube to generate ad revenue aren't going to be needing the "Share" button since they post process, edit, and split all their videos anyway.

I doubt that MANY other companies will follow suit. There will be a few in the future, but Nintendo has yet to face the considerable backlash that will occur once the copyright claim becomes widespread on Youtube. To the best of my knowledge, the large majority of major gaming studios (especially those based in the US, which is pretty large now) absolutely love partnering with Youtube gamers. They send them free stuff, most of the time they allow them exclusive content, demos, and information that are, of course, under embargo, but that's besides the point. They already have a solid pre-existing relationship with them, and are familiar with the fact that they do this as a job.

Nintendo has never been one of the companies that understands how this works or has been heavily partnered by Youtube gamers. Those that are based or established around NA have a better grip on how to handle their image on a website as large as Youtube simply because they're more familiar with how the community would react to something like this. Nintendo doesn't really directly connect with this audience, unlike something like EA or Blizzard who love sending free stuff to gamers and holding press conferences to make sure that they're promoted like they're the shit.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that some will follow, but I doubt that that many NA based companies will try. I might be wrong, but I don't expect EA, Activision, Ubisoft, or wherever else to try. Maybe SEGA or something, but seriously, who LP's that many SEGA games on Youtube anyway? For now, I can't see any company trying to do this since they know they'll have to face severe backlash and they're more familiar with the community as a whole.

And regarding laws: no one who comments on the internet is really in a position to figure this out I think. None of us are really copyright lawyers, and digital media is a really difficult and almost unexplored concept in written law. It's hard to decipher whether or not this is wrong in its legality. What most CAN argue, however, is that this is just a fucking bad thing in every way. Sometimes, an issue has to go past the law. It's not wrong for Nintendo to acknowledge that this is their content, because it's debatable, but it's just a plain bad idea to go after it on Youtube because that just fucks everything up.

 

[Arras]

Update: Nintendo will not remove videos of LPs

"As part of our on-going push to ensure Nintendo content is shared across social media channels in an appropriate and safe way, we became a YouTube partner and as such in February 2013 we registered our copyright content in the YouTube database. For most fan videos this will not result in any changes, however, for those videos featuring Nintendo-owned content, such as images or audio of a certain length, adverts will now appear at the beginning, next to or at the end of the clips. We continually want our fans to enjoy sharing Nintendo content on YouTube, and that is why, unlike other entertainment companies, we have chosen not to block people using our intellectual property."

http://www.gamefront.com/nintendo-flexing-copyright-clout-on-youtube-lets-play-channels/

That quote is, word for word, in the OP, and I'm pretty sure it has been there since the start of this thread...

 

[Tigran]

So... According to you guys... I should be able to take a let's play video.... add my own commentary... daraw a few doodles on it...and make money off it.


Wonder how long before those LPers start to get pissed...

 

[TripleSMoon]

So... According to you guys... I should be able to put a lot if time, effort, and money into a let's play video.... add my own commentary... draw a few doodles on it... Give the company free advertising... and make a small amount of ad revenue off it.

Fix'd

 

[the_randomizer]

That quote is, word for word, in the OP, and I'm pretty sure it has been there since the start of this thread...

Then where is the "removal" part coming from? Doesn't sound like Nintendo is removing videos from that statement.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Yeah if you think a LP is easy (a good LP at least) then you're really wrong.

It's not a "freeloading" job like everyone thinks. It's not easy money. First you have to invest in everything. Capture equipment, editing and graphics software, a computer that can handle all this, etc. You need to make sure it's interesting, and that's not always easy. Make sure your commentary is good, that it's constantly engaging. It's easy to play a video game but to play them constantly and constantly talk over them? That's really tough. Hell watch Game Grumps and at times they'll comment on how hard it is to make constantly good commentary. Then you have to record all your footage, edit it down into chunks, secure good advertising so it gets seen, and then get advertising money.

If you really think "Well I play video games all day because I'm a sad fuck so this is just easy money!" then you're gonna have a terribly unsuccessful LP that'll probably grace the pages of retsupurae.

 

[fojacko]

Yeah if you think a LP is easy (a good LP at least) then you're really wrong.

It's not a "freeloading" job like everyone thinks. It's not easy money. First you have to invest in everything. Capture equipment, editing and graphics software, a computer that can handle all this, etc. You need to make sure it's interesting, and that's not always easy. Make sure your commentary is good, that it's constantly engaging. It's easy to play a video game but to play them constantly and constantly talk over them? That's really tough. Hell watch Game Grumps and at times they'll comment on how hard it is to make constantly good commentary. Then you have to record all your footage, edit it down into chunks, secure good advertising so it gets seen, and then get advertising money.

If you really think "Well I play video games all day because I'm a sad fuck so this is just easy money!" then you're gonna have a terribly unsuccessful LP that'll probably grace the pages of retsupurae.

This. If you don't have good quality (video, audio and how interesting you are), people won't watch you. So you have to invest before you even start. When I click on a video and it has bad quality, I physically can't watch it all.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

This. If you don't have good quality (video, audio and how interesting you are), people won't watch you. So you have to invest before you even start. When I click on a video and it has bad quality, I physically can't watch it all.

Physically was the best possible way to describe it. My face cringes until it implodes on itself.

 

[fojacko]

Physically was the best possible way to describe it. My face cringes until it implodes on itself.

Yeah, I want to watch a video where I don't have to strain my eyes to see what's happening.