S
Saiyan Lusitano
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Okay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.
I highlighted your mistake. Morality isn't objective. Sure, people sometimes agree on some moral principles, but they aren't objectively right. I know it's hard to imagine, but some people (or even cultures) don't necessarily have to view murder as wrong.Okay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.
Leaving aside murder being defined as unlawful killing and thus human law coming into it (if you kill someone in self defence it not necessarily being murder being the classic example, to say nothing of all the weird and wonderful laws out there that various religions or historical quirks might have given us).Okay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.
‘We do not execute. We do not massacre. We never, you may be very certain, we never torture. We have no truck with crimes of passion or hatred or pointless gain. We do not do it for a delight in inhumation, or to feed some secret inner need, or for petty advantage, or for some cause or belief; I tell you, gentlemen, that all these reasons are in the highest degree suspect. Look into the face of a man who will kill you for a belief and your nostrils will snuff up the scent of abomination. Hear a speech declaring a holy war and I assure you, your ears should catch the clink of evil’s scales and the dragging of its monstrous tail over the purity of the language.
‘No, we do it for the money.
‘And, because we above all must know the value of a human life, we do it for a great deal of money.
‘There can be few cleaner motives, so shorn of pretence.
‘Nil mortifi, sinelucre. Remember.
No killing without payment.'
If the only thing stopping you from killing someone in cold blood is your belief in your flavor of deistic faith, I think we've got bigger issues to discuss hereOkay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.
An interesting pointOkay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.
Free University? More like, Free Brainwashing.
The mere fact that you're able to say that means it clearly isn't. But, to a degree, I agree with that statement. Just not for the reason you probably said itSchool/High-School/College/University = Brainwashing...
Okay, so I'm gonna assume the OP is an atheist... Why is murder wrong? That's an interesting discussion, because as someone who agrees with the video, I have been trying to figure out a possible atheistic source for objective morality for quite a while now and I'm coming up short every time. Sure, we can have "majority rule" morality, but that's still not objective "right" and "wrong", that's just law.
Basically sums up PragerU in one image:
As for this video in specific, the idea that morality can only come from religion or god is ludicrous. It's straight up religious propaganda, and the logic throughout the entire thing is full of more holes than Swiss cheese.
Atheists always say morality is not objective, but nobody actually believes that. If morality is just "behavioral tendencies specific to given culture", we have no right to call Islamic terrorists wrong. Their morality says infidels are to be killed. Meaning they're not monsters - they're martyrs, heroes, saints. How dare you say a bad word about their actions, you bigot. Sure, they break our laws and we can prosecute them because of that, but our laws are simply unjust in this regard, clearly.I highlighted your mistake. Morality isn't objective. Sure, people sometimes agree on some moral principles, but they aren't objectively right. I know it's hard to imagine, but some people (or even cultures) don't necessarily have to view murder as wrong.
There's plenty of things stopping one from murdering, but other than belief in higher, objective morality, there isn't anything I can see that would stop one from believing murder isn't wrong. That's my point - I believe that the world was created not just with matter, not just with space and time and not just with rules of physics built in - but also with moral rules. That morality is as real and objective as gravity - it's not "ideas we invent", it's "facts we discover". It's like science, only we're capable of going against it, unlike with, say, gravity.If the only thing stopping you from killing someone in cold blood is your belief in your flavor of deistic faith, I think we've got bigger issues to discuss here
Not exactly.But consider this - even if there was a God there would be no objective right or wrong
God would be another entitiy simply stating his wishes - and perhaps you could follow his subjective opinions, but his authority as "creator" would not allow him to make actions objectively right or wrong - only right or wrong in the eyes of one being.
It will always be impossible to make a value judgement objective.
Once again, an atheist hears "morality comes from God" and answers with "that's just ridiculous, illogical propaganda and no, I'm not gonna tell you why that is, have an insult instead".As for this video in specific, the idea that morality can only come from religion or god is ludicrous. It's straight up religious propaganda, and the logic throughout the entire thing is full of more holes than Swiss cheese.
god is not the answer, morality swings in each religion, there are more religious murderrers than non religious murderers.Atheists always say morality is not objective, but nobody actually believes that. If morality is just "behavioral tendencies specific to given culture", we have no right to call Islamic terrorists wrong. Their morality says infidels are to be killed. Meaning they're not monsters - they're martyrs, heroes, saints. How dare you say a bad word about their actions, you bigot. Sure, they break our laws and we can prosecute them because of that, but our laws are simply unjust in this regard, clearly.
There's plenty of things stopping one from murdering, but other than belief in higher, objective morality, there isn't anything I can see that would stop one from believing murder isn't wrong. That's my point - I believe that the world was created not just with matter, not just with space and time and not just with rules of physics built in - but also with moral rules. That morality is as real and objective as gravity - it's not "ideas we invent", it's "facts we discover". It's like science, only we're capable of going against it, unlike with, say, gravity.
Do tell me what stops you from believing murder is as morally neutral as blowing your nose and doesn't have its source in objective idea of morality. That something is exactly what I have never been able to find.
Not exactly.
Because of His omniscience God knows what is right and because of His Love, He commands exactly that. Things aren't good because He commands them, He commands them because they're good. This may sound like God is subject to an even higher authority, a "morality" beyond Himself - but again, that is no morality at that point, that's Love. He wants Good, because He is Love and that's what Love wants for Its object. We're like little children, trying to put a metal fork into the electrical socket and calling our parents' decision to forbid it "arbitrary" and "selfish". It's not - they just know better and they love us. That combination is key.
Once again, an atheist hears "morality comes from God" and answers with "that's just ridiculous, illogical propaganda and no, I'm not gonna tell you why that is, have an insult instead".
Edgy 13-17 year-olds indeed.
Come on, if you want to argue against the points made - argue against the points being made.
Atheists always say morality is not objective, but nobody actually believes that. If morality is just "behavioral tendencies specific to given culture", we have no right to call Islamic terrorists wrong. Their morality says infidels are to be killed. Meaning they're not monsters - they're martyrs, heroes, saints. How dare you say a bad word about their actions, you bigot. Sure, they break our laws and we can prosecute them because of that, but our laws are simply unjust in this regard, clearly.
There's plenty of things stopping one from murdering, but other than belief in higher, objective morality, there isn't anything I can see that would stop one from believing murder isn't wrong. That's my point - I believe that the world was created not just with matter, not just with space and time and not just with rules of physics built in - but also with moral rules. That morality is as real and objective as gravity - it's not "ideas we invent", it's "facts we discover". It's like science, only we're capable of going against it, unlike with, say, gravity.
Do tell me what stops you from believing murder is as morally neutral as blowing your nose and doesn't have its source in objective idea of morality. That something is exactly what I have never been able to find.
Once again, an atheist hears "morality comes from God" and answers with "that's just ridiculous, illogical propaganda and no, I'm not gonna tell you why that is, have an insult instead".
Edgy 13-17 year-olds indeed.
Come on, if you want to argue against the points made - argue against the points being made.
Atheists always say morality is not objective, but nobody actually believes that. If morality is just "behavioral tendencies specific to given culture", we have no right to call Islamic terrorists wrong. Their morality says infidels are to be killed. Meaning they're not monsters - they're martyrs, heroes, saints. How dare you say a bad word about their actions, you bigot. Sure, they break our laws and we can prosecute them because of that, but our laws are simply unjust in this regard, clearly.
Well... yeah. I agree that they think they are morally in the right and we are immoral. They have their own set of morality that is different from ours. See? You just admitted that morality is subjective.
There's plenty of things stopping one from murdering, but other than belief in higher, objective morality, there isn't anything I can see that would stop one from believing murder isn't wrong. That's my point - I believe that the world was created not just with matter, not just with space and time and not just with rules of physics built in - but also with moral rules. That morality is as real and objective as gravity - it's not "ideas we invent", it's "facts we discover". It's like science, only we're capable of going against it, unlike with, say, gravity.
Do tell me what stops you from believing murder is as morally neutral as blowing your nose and doesn't have its source in objective idea of morality. That something is exactly what I have never been able to find.
So, you want a reason why murder is wrong? What about the fact that I don't like it? I wouldn't want to be murdered, so I won't murder others.
Also, you just said that morality is objective, which contradicts your last statement. The one about Islamic terrorists.
Also also, morality is as real and objective as gravity? That would imply it was like this from the start. So, tell me this? How is it possible that our morality changes? Or are you saying that our morality is exactly the same as how it was thousands of years ago?
Not exactly.
Because of His omniscience God knows what is right and because of His Love, He commands exactly that. Things aren't good because He commands them, He commands them because they're good. This may sound like God is subject to an even higher authority, a "morality" beyond Himself - but again, that is no morality at that point, that's Love. He wants Good, because He is Love and that's what Love wants for Its object. We're like little children, trying to put a metal fork into the electrical socket and calling our parents' decision to forbid it "arbitrary" and "selfish". It's not - they just know better and they love us. That combination is key.
So, God is love? What about all the death he's responsible for? Is that love as well? (Plagues, natural disasters, outright God-sanctioned killings (mentioned in the Bible), etc.)
Once again, an atheist hears "morality comes from God" and answers with "that's just ridiculous, illogical propaganda and no, I'm not gonna tell you why that is, have an insult instead".
Edgy 13-17 year-olds indeed.
Come on, if you want to argue against the points made - argue against the points being made.