14 reported dead, 20 injured in shooting at Dark Night Rises showing.

[Foxi4]

Though I agree with youm I think the Justice system and police making procedural errors, is a bigger problem than actual police corruption, in the US. Police corruption is a HORRIBLE problem in Mexico, I live right on the border with Juarez which is a major cartel border crossing -- but US police do get pensions -- they just aren't always trained enough to avoid making mistakes that let criminals get off on technicalities.

It's all a matter of funding in my opinion. More funding equals better training, better training equals better officers.

Yeah, not necessarily even more funding overall, just better distributed funding, in my opinion. The war on drugs is a major issue where I live (El Paso, being a major trafficking corridor) but some decriminalization (which could be both a state and federal matter) would free up a LOT of money for more important things than jailing kids caught with one too many joints in their stash. Like police training, or even higher police pensions (I don't know that their salaries should be increased, I think increasing their retirement and other benefits for their families would be a stronger incentive to stay clean of corruption than simply paying them more.)

Changes take time, of course. Even a treasury filled to the brim won't help if it's badly managed - I fully agree. You just need to have those lesser trained officers trained by other, more organized forces so that they can mimic the good habits and weed out the bad ones from their own units. Money definitely isn't all, but it helps. I'd say an exchange program between various departments all across the country would surely help, as well as an international exchange of officers. To combat organized drug trafficking as well as illegal immigration, the U.S and Mexico should work together.

 

[mrnintendo15]

tl;dr I don't want to start another argument. We share different opinions, end of story.

:/ But I spent a half hour articulating those arguements, you could atleast TRY.

hahaha I actually did read it, I just like pissing people off. You made a few good points there, but I still disagree with you. Don't you hate it whenever you're talking to your friends on facebook or whatever and you type a really long story/response and they just say "tl;dr" or give a one word answer like "cool" or "yeah"?

 

[SifJar]

@OnTopic
Notice they didn't report the guy's race...

Didn't report his hair or eye colour either. What's your point?

 

[Foxi4]

@OnTopic
Notice they didn't report the guy's race...

Didn't report his hair or eye colour either. What's your point?

Curiousity or implied racism, pick your poison.

EDIT: They sure have reported his race:

Sort of hard to miss the huge photo, eh?

 

[SifJar]

Curiousity or implied racism, pick your poison.

I assumed the later, my point was to highlight this.

EDIT: I dunno if they should have released that image. That smirk will surely haunt the nightmares of the families of the deceased for years

 

[The Milkman]

tl;dr I don't want to start another argument. We share different opinions, end of story.

:/ But I spent a half hour articulating those arguements, you could atleast TRY.

hahaha I actually did read it, I just like pissing people off. You made a few good points there, but I still disagree with you. Don't you hate it whenever you're talking to your friends on facebook or whatever and you type a really long story/response and they just say "tl;dr" or give a one word answer like "cool" or "yeah"?

So your just avoiding the argument all together then? Alright, I'm gone.

 

[mrnintendo15]

tl;dr I don't want to start another argument. We share different opinions, end of story.

:/ But I spent a half hour articulating those arguements, you could atleast TRY.

hahaha I actually did read it, I just like pissing people off. You made a few good points there, but I still disagree with you. Don't you hate it whenever you're talking to your friends on facebook or whatever and you type a really long story/response and they just say "tl;dr" or give a one word answer like "cool" or "yeah"?

So your just avoiding the argument all together then? Alright, I'm gone.

Lighten up man, I didn't mean for you to take it personally.

 

[Actinopterygian Melospiza]

If this guy gets off with an insanity plea that's when you know the justice system 1.works okay. I don't care if you were insane or not in your right mind, you fucking kill someone, you deserve to 2.either be sent to jail for life or put in a mental hospital. And no matter who you are, 3.NOBODY has the right to choose whether or not someone lives or dies, you kill more then one person, you deserve worse. 4.People were fucked up in ancient times, 5.people were still fucked up in medieval times, 6.People were getting better but still bad in the colonial and victorian age. That's 7.Definaetly not how they should do it now.

fixed. I can't believe some people still believe in the death penalty.

1. No. If I kill your entire family, all your friends, or any other people you care for in anyway. How would you feel if I just got to sit in a cell that YOUR paying for, eating food that YOUR giving me are you going to tell me that on no level you would want me to suffer in some way?

Wanting him to suffer is revenge not justice, and is a childish way of thought. Also you do know that putting prisoners on death row costs significantly more money than just giving them life in prison with no possibility of parole, don't you? And personally I would rather have my tax money go toward him rotting in prison for the rest of his life than murdering him.

2. No. thats like ignoring a problem instead of fixing it. What if we just took all the worlds problems the put them in a nice little box instead of fixing them?

Prison = being removed from society. Death Penalty = being removed from society. If prison is not fixing the problem than neither is the death penalty, except the death penalty costs taxpayer even more money. Also providing mental health services to those who need it IS trying to fix the problem, not just sticking the problem in a body bag.

3. Like the man who shot a baby point blank? Who did the baby ever hurt or kill, I bet the kid couldnt even TALK yet. But no, he choose who lives and dies, and whats his punishment for playing god? Food and shelter, not having to work to eat, even having the chance to get things such as education and therapy that a child who could actually grow up and DO something with it is deprived of. Oh, but at least we can hope he leaves and DOESNT SHOOT ANOTHER BABY IN THE FACE.

First of all, I keep hearing he shot a baby point blank but I haven't seen a source on this, mind providing one? But for argument's sake let's assume it's true. Yes it was a terrible and horrible thing, but doing more terrible things as retribution is not justice, and in my opinion just thinking about doing horrible things to someone else makes you no better than them.

4-6. >Implying were still not fucked up, whats changed since then? We know a little more, does that mean the basis of society suddenly is outdated and uneeded? Is an eye for an eye suddenly too brutal? How dare we want the eye of the man who took our own, who dare we want fairness.

Firstly, If you honestly think society as a whole is as fucked up as it used to be then you need to do a bit of research. Secondly, an eye for an eye is ridiculous and is just you thinking like the criminal did. Lastly, the world is not fair, demanding fairness gets you nothing in life, and is also a childish way of thought.

7. Im not saying we should cut off the hands of thieves or put prositutes or adulters in chasity or kill bastard children. But its not that hard to say if a man kills someone the LEAST of his punishment should be a painless death.

Seriously dude, stop thinking terrible things should happen to him. It's a fucked up way to think and borderline sociopathic behavior.

 

[Zetta_x]

If this guy gets off with an insanity plea that's when you know the justice system 1.works okay. I don't care if you were insane or not in your right mind, you fucking kill someone, you deserve to 2.either be sent to jail for life or put in a mental hospital. And no matter who you are, 3.NOBODY has the right to choose whether or not someone lives or dies, you kill more then one person, you deserve worse. 4.People were fucked up in ancient times, 5.people were still fucked up in medieval times, 6.People were getting better but still bad in the colonial and victorian age. That's 7.Definaetly not how they should do it now.

fixed. I can't believe some people still believe in the death penalty.

1. No. If I kill your entire family, all your friends, or any other people you care for in anyway. How would you feel if I just got to sit in a cell that YOUR paying for, eating food that YOUR giving me are you going to tell me that on no level you would want me to suffer in some way?

Wanting him to suffer is revenge not justice, and is a childish way of thought. Also you do know that putting prisoners on death row costs significantly more money than just giving them life in prison with no possibility of parole, don't you? And personally I would rather have my tax money go toward him rotting in prison for the rest of his life than murdering him.

2. No. thats like ignoring a problem instead of fixing it. What if we just took all the worlds problems the put them in a nice little box instead of fixing them?

Prison = being removed from society. Death Penalty = being removed from society. If prison is not fixing the problem than neither is the death penalty, except the death penalty costs taxpayer even more money. Also providing mental health services to those who need it IS trying to fix the problem, not just sticking the problem in a body bag.

3. Like the man who shot a baby point blank? Who did the baby ever hurt or kill, I bet the kid couldnt even TALK yet. But no, he choose who lives and dies, and whats his punishment for playing god? Food and shelter, not having to work to eat, even having the chance to get things such as education and therapy that a child who could actually grow up and DO something with it is deprived of. Oh, but at least we can hope he leaves and DOESNT SHOOT ANOTHER BABY IN THE FACE.

First of all, I keep hearing he shot a baby point blank but I haven't seen a source on this, mind providing one? But for argument's sake let's assume it's true. Yes it was a terrible and horrible thing, but doing more terrible things as retribution is not justice, and in my opinion just thinking about doing horrible things to someone else makes you no better than them.

4-6. >Implying were still not fucked up, whats changed since then? We know a little more, does that mean the basis of society suddenly is outdated and uneeded? Is an eye for an eye suddenly too brutal? How dare we want the eye of the man who took our own, who dare we want fairness.

Firstly, If you honestly think society as a whole is as fucked up as it used to be then you need to do a bit of research. Secondly, an eye for an eye is ridiculous and is just you thinking like the criminal did. Lastly, the world is not fair, demanding fairness gets you nothing in life, and is also a childish way of thought.

7. Im not saying we should cut off the hands of thieves or put prositutes or adulters in chasity or kill bastard children. But its not that hard to say if a man kills someone the LEAST of his punishment should be a painless death.

Seriously dude, stop thinking terrible things should happen to him. It's a fucked up way to think and borderline sociopathic behavior.

Prisons are overcrowded, I would think that it costs more keeping someone alive for the rest of their life than to just kill them? Where is your source?

The world is overpopulated

 

[Actinopterygian Melospiza]

Prisons are overcrowded, I would think that it costs more keeping someone alive for the rest of their life than to just kill them? Where is your source?

The world is overpopulated

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
Seriously man, take five minutes to do some research for yourself.

edit: I'll make it even easier for you:

Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.
The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

 

[stinkoman]

There was no dead baby. A 3-month-old got injured but is recovering fine. Might've been teargas but that's just speculation.

 

[InuYasha]

It's a double edged sword really,the majority of people would say kill the bastard which the idiot would be getting off easy,then theres the other side where basically he'll get whats coming to him in jail no doubt one way or another...

 

[Foxi4]

I dunno if they should have released that image. That smirk will surely haunt the nightmares of the families of the deceased for years

Yeah, it does look quite nasty given the circumstances, but that's the one the two news services I checked posted, so... yeah.

I'll make it even easier for you:

Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.
The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

I will show you a way to reduce that cost.

Do you know what bumps the cost so much? Years upon years of Death Row - the criminal is not immediately executed, it usually takes a year or two, sometimes more, before the execution takes place. Costs of Death Row are tallied up to the cost of the Death Penalty, costs of standard prison cells are not tallied up to the costs of life imprisonment, even though the cost is the same per day.

If you are trying to convince me that an injection of toxins is somehow more expensive than feeding, clothing, giving routine medical check-ups and overall care to a person for the entirety of his/her life then you should probably re-think what you're saying. The costs are high, but not because it's an expensive procedure - it's because the law allows people to whine and plea for years before the actual sentence is carried out.

 

[exangel]

There's more complicated court/appeals procedures for the death penalty that aren't employed with a life sentence though and that also significantly adds to the cost. His source is disappointingly legit.

 

[Actinopterygian Melospiza]

I'll make it even easier for you:

Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.
The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

I will show you a way to reduce that cost.

Do you know what bumps the cost so much? Years upon years of Death Row - the criminal is not immediately executed, it usually takes a year or two, sometimes more, before the execution takes place. Costs of Death Row are tallied up to the cost of the Death Penalty, costs of standard prison cells are not tallied up to the costs of life imprisonment, even though the cost is the same per day.

If you are trying to convince me that an injection of toxins is somehow more expensive than feeding, clothing, giving routine medical check-ups and overall care to a person for the entirety of his/her life then you should probably re-think what you're saying. The costs are high, but not because it's an expensive procedure - it's because the law allows people to whine and plea for years before the actual sentence is carried out.

You should have read some of the info from the link I posted. The main reason it's so much more expensive are the court and appeals's process being much more costly. One study showed cases where the death penalty is sought cost around $70 million more of the states money than non-death penalty cases where the outcome was life or long-term imprisonment.

edit:

 

[Foxi4]

You should have read some of the info from the link I posted. The main reason it's so much more expensive are the court and appeals's process being much more costly. One study showed cases where the death penalty is sought cost around $70 million more of the states money than non-death penalty cases where the outcome was life or long-term imprisonment.

So, as I said, it's not the Death Penalty by itself that's expensive but the crude legislature behind it, isn't it? Or was that not clear? The right to appeal shouldn't always be given - in cases where the offender is guilty and it's clear as day, where you have multiple eye witnesses and camera feeds to back the claims of the persecution up, when there's the offender caught red-handed, the execution doesn't need to wait more than until after the original trial, which shouldn't take longer than 24 hours because there is no way in hell that one could somehow wiggle out of a situation like this.

The Death Penalty is not expensive, it's crude execution of this penalty that costs money.

 

[exangel]

This just brings us back the the point that the justice system in the US is big problem in and of itself. We are so many years and so many precendents tacked onto a basic system that started out pretty solid and after 230some years, is now a bloated beast of burden kept alive through transfusions of political leverage.

It really shouldn't cost taxpayers so much more to execute as opposed to imprison, but the way our government currently works, that's the unfortunate reality.

edit: Doesn't help that puritanism tainted the early American justice ideals, either. Puritanism is really making a comeback under the guise of conservativism this year.

 

[Foxi4]

It's not just the government that's at fault - the citizens have their own two cents in this issue.

Do you know how much money it costs to hire additional security whenever a mob of protesters storms a prison building in protest of the Death Penalty? How many protests like this have we seen throughout the years? How much money is wasted on conferences in defense of a decision that was made by a judge, how much money goes down the drain to keep the public calm just because one person has to be put down for what he or she has done?

We complain about high costs, but in a way, we increase them all by ourselves thinking that we're noble.

 

[Actinopterygian Melospiza]

You should have read some of the info from the link I posted. The main reason it's so much more expensive are the court and appeals's process being much more costly. One study showed cases where the death penalty is sought cost around $70 million more of the states money than non-death penalty cases where the outcome was life or long-term imprisonment.

So, as I said, it's not the Death Penalty by itself that's expensive but the crude legislature behind it that is, isn't it? Or was that not clear? The right to appeal shouldn't always be given - in cases where the offender is guilty and it's clear as day, where you have multiple eye witnesses and camera feeds to back the claims of the persecution up, when there's the offender caught red-handed, the execution doesn't need to wait more than the original trial, which shouldn't take longer than 24 hours because there is no way in hell that one could somehow wiggle out of a situation like this.

The Death Penalty is not expensive, it's crude execution of this penalty that costs money.

Sorry, i misread what you were saying. But in cases like you're describing the process usually is much swifter and less costly, but those cases where the evidence is incontrovertible are very rare. People have been exonerated after being given the death sentence; if it wasn't for the time between the sentence and the execution they would have been murdered for a crime they didn't commit, and no matter how rare those instances are as well they cannot just be disregarded for the sake of saving money.

 

[Mangofett]

If you're suggesting to implement a system where you can execute a criminal immediately after conviction, even if it's "obvious", there is going to be a LOT of abuse.

The system fails a lot as it is. Don't make it even more exploitable.