Can Donald Trump become President Again?

[smf]

Or they turn up to late since they were working in their other jobs, as there might not be enough services to render, in the area, to make a living out of it.

Your child has been abducted? We need $200 for the call out fee, plus $500 a day, payable in advance.

 

[tabzer]

Making fun of the things they don't understand is what smart people do.

 

[Foxi4]

So you want police and fire fighters to turn up with a credit card reader. Got it.

No, you do not. No surprise there though. Just as a quick reminder, the state has three basic responsibilities - creating, executing and enforcing law (legislature, executive branches, law enforcement, judiciary etc.), defending citizens from internal (police) and external (military) threats and creating an environment wherein citizens can engage in commerce (infrastructure, legal tender, so on and so forth). Those are the main interests of the government, I’ll let you figure out if that includes “police and fire fighters” or not.

And roads, you can only build a road when someone is sitting there waiting to drive on it and willing to pay.

I'm not sure he understands what "services rendered" means.

Someone’s certainly having trouble.

That also includes healthcare, and we've seen how healtchare works in america

Healthcare in America has been completely removed from any semblance of a free market many, many years ago via boneheaded employer-based insurance, Social Security and other assorted legislation. Switzerland on the other hand, they have it knocked. It’s almost as if private healthcare was a perfectly serviceable model in the absence of government interventionism.

Or they turn up to late since they were working in their other jobs, as there might not be enough services to render, in the area, to make a living out of it.

Now that’s what I like, arguing with hypotheticals based on second-hand strawmen. It’s also funny to read that “not having to deal with fires” (and the dozens of different problems responders deal with on a daily basis) is an issue - sounds like a good problem to have, if only we were all so lucky.

Your child has been abducted? We need $200 for the call out fee, plus $500 a day, payable in advance.

Maybe it was asking for it, what was the child wearing?

You guys really are amazing. I await to hear more of “my opinions”.

And no one knows more about infertile grounds for minds than you LMAO the master of throwing dead cats and mystifying.

I don’t really care how you take your L’s.

A recipt for disaster, not to mention the usual amount of lies and spin typical of libertarians. But I appreciate that "less tax" sounds like the best improvement ever, doesn't matter if that money is absolutely nothing compared to the cost of life. "Bidenflation" LOL you're a ridiculous Putin stooge.

I mean, it’s official IRS records. They’re public, you can look them up yourself. You’re not even arguing with me at this point, you’re arguing with the tax man - I thought that was my spiel? As for Bidenflation, inflation in the U.S. is well above global levels. It’s at its highest point since 1982, sitting at around 8%, and it hit that level *before* the oil price spike on account of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but you go on ahead and blame everyone *except* the people in charge.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/it...prices-bureau-of-labor-statistics-11646952656

 

[chrisrlink]

i'm supprised this thread wasn't shutdown a while ago for the level of stupidity emanating from it i swear some of you must be commies for endosing trump or very stupid and ignorant of the facts in your face if trump is elected again democracy is F-ed plain and simple

 

[KingVamp]

Switzerland on the other hand, they have it knocked. It’s almost as if private healthcare was a perfectly serviceable model in the absence of government interventionism.

Except, you must have healthcare and companies must have a basic plan. Also, the government will still step in, if your income is too low.

 

[Foxi4]

Except, you must have healthcare and companies must have a basic plan. Also, the government will still step in, if your income is too low.

That’s correct - the government requires all citizens to sign up for a healthcare plan as a bare minimum and only offers welfare to those who lack any other coverage option due to low/no income. Very sensible.

i'm supprised this thread wasn't shutdown a while ago for the level of stupidity emanating from it i swear some of you must be commies for endosing trump or very stupid and ignorant of the facts in your face if trump is elected again democracy is F-ed plain and simple

Thread’s admittedly been pretty badly derailed - with some luck we’ll get back on track (hint hint, Bidenflation was the bait, still waiting for the usual suspects to chime in). Other than that I’m not sure why you’re surprised by a potential Trump run thread revolving around Trump - not sure what the input is here.

 

[Xzi]

That’s correct - the government requires all citizens to sign up for a healthcare plan as a bare minimum and only offers welfare to those who lack any other coverage option due to low/no income. Very sensible.

Switzerland also has one of the highest median incomes in all of Europe, and I'm guessing a much higher effective minimum wage than the US. I'd also bet my left nut that their insurance industry is tightly regulated and can't deny a necessary surgery to somebody who has paid in more than double its cost.

So certainly there are lessons we could learn from them, but healthcare has never been a one size fits all proposition. Given the extent of cronyism in the US insurance industry, it'd be far easier to start fresh with a public option and/or universal healthcare.

 

[Foxi4]

Switzerland also has one of the highest median incomes in all of Europe, and I'm guessing a much higher effective minimum wage than the US. I'd also bet my left nut that their insurance industry is tightly regulated and can't deny a necessary surgery to somebody who has paid in more than double its cost.

So certainly there are lessons we could learn from them, but healthcare has never been a one size fits all proposition. Given the extent of cronyism in the US insurance industry, it'd be far easier to start fresh with a public option and/or universal healthcare.

I will agree that starting fresh and making all previous legislation and regulation null and void would be easier. I’m even keen on agreeing on the universality, although technically as a libertarian I believe people should have the right to make their own decisions, including bad, self-destructive and irresponsible ones (perhaps an “opt out” option and opt in default. Somewhat deceptive, but leaning towards less harm, which is an acceptable trade off that still leaves the path open to any takers). I’m not so keen on the public option part. The government has no business running healthcare - private providers are perfectly capable of delivering quality service, which is the only thing I’m interested in. What I do know for a fact is that the system needs reform, regardless of who runs in the next election cycle.

 

[Xzi]

I’m not so keen on the public option part. The government has no business running healthcare - private providers are perfectly capable of delivering quality service, which is the only thing I’m interested in.

They might be capable of it, but they'd never do it solely out of the goodness of their hearts. Out of the two options for keeping them honest: strict regulatory oversight or stiff competition in the form of a public option, I'd think you'd prefer the latter as less heavy-handed. Regardless, I'm glad to hear you can at least recognize when certain privatized ecosystems are starting to crumble under the weight of their own flaws.

 

[Foxi4]

They might be capable of it, but they'd never do it solely out of the goodness of their hearts. Out of the two options for keeping them honest: strict regulatory oversight or stiff competition in the form of a public option, I'd think you'd prefer the latter as less heavy-handed. Regardless, I'm glad to hear you can at least recognize when certain privatized ecosystems are starting to crumble under the weight of their own flaws.

A public option is not “stiff competition”, you can’t compete with “free”. What you’re describing is a pathway to supplemental insurance - why would private providers waste time and resources on coverage that the state is already providing? This proposition is a non-starter as far as free market competition is concerned. The government is supposed to play a regulatory role - it doesn’t run the market, it only sets the rules of the game. If you want the game to be fair, your only concern is that the rules aren’t rigged. Right now they are rigged, for many reasons that go well beyond the scope of the thread.

 

[Xzi]

A public option is not “stiff competition”, you can’t compete with “free”.

A public option isn't free though, you know that. The only difference is you pay your premiums through taxes rather than a monthly billing cycle. If private insurers can provide more extensive, more customizable plans than what the government offers, they have nothing to worry about. Same way FedEx and UPS can exist and remain profitable despite USPS undercutting them for a lot of services.

This proposition is a non-starter as far as free market competition is concerned.

That's never really been a concern of mine. After all, the closest thing the modern world has seen to the ancap fantasy of a "totally free market" is Jeffrey Epstein's island lmao. If certain insurance companies have to close up shop just because the healthcare industry necessitates ethical business practices (through regulation or public competition), then we're better off without them.

 

[kenlee168]

Getting Ignored, given a cold shoulder

 

[Reiten]

Now that’s what I like, arguing with hypotheticals based on second-hand strawmen. It’s also funny to read that “not having to deal with fires” (and the dozens of different problems responders deal with on a daily basis) is an issue - sounds like a good problem to have, if only we were all so lucky.

I actually know a fire station in a rural area, responsible for a few small villages, that would fit what I described. They sometimes get only a few jobs per month. Using teams from other bigger places doesn't work as that increases the time needed to arrive too much. Having another fire station subside it would be rather similar to taxes, so what's a sensible solution for such a case? It's most certainly an edge case, but those also have to be taken into consideration.
Also how exactly would billing work, does the owner always pay? Doesn't sound fair in like grass fires, where a guy threw a cigarette in a field and it caught fire or similar cases.
It like to hear a replay to this, but I'll stop there as we're totally off topic with this.

 

[Foxi4]

A public option isn't free though, you know that. The only difference is you pay your premiums through taxes rather than a monthly billing cycle. If private insurers can provide more extensive, more customizable plans than what the government offers, they have nothing to worry about. Same way FedEx and UPS can exist and remain profitable despite USPS undercutting them for a lot of services.

That's never really been a concern of mine. After all, the closest thing the modern world has seen to the ancap fantasy of a "totally free market" is Jeffrey Epstein's island lmao. If certain insurance companies have to close up shop just because the healthcare industry necessitates ethical business practices (through regulation or public competition), then we're better off without them.

Any option that requires you to pay for it after you’ve already opted for the alternative is inherently unfair to the taxpayer. Of course this isn’t “free”, however it is paid for collectively by mandate as opposed to by a singular customer and electively. *Clears throat* “It’s not a fee, it’s a tax”. The private sector can’t compete with that. As an aside, in this scenario, the government is the only provider that can discriminate based on income (the less income you make the less tax you pay), which is kind of funny.

I actually know a fire station in a rural area, responsible for a few small villages, that would fit what I described. They sometimes get only a few jobs per month. Using teams from other bigger places doesn't work as that increases the time needed to arrive too much. Having another fire station subside it would be rather similar to taxes, so what's a sensible solution for such a case? It's most certainly an edge case, but those also have to be taken into consideration.
Also how exactly would billing work, does the owner always pay? Doesn't sound fair in like grass fires, where a guy threw a cigarette in a field and it caught fire or similar cases.
It like to hear a replay to this, but I'll stop there as we're totally off topic with this.

Why are you arguing with yourself? I never said any of this - nobody asked me. You just had a bizarre exchange with somebody else about things I didn’t say, then concocted a weird scenario based on a personal anecdote.

 

[Reiten]

As a general rule, I like to pay for services rendered.

My apologies, you are right. You never said anything about it, I just interpreted this line of yours too broadly.

 

[Foxi4]

My apologies, you are right. You never said anything about it, I just interpreted this line of yours too broadly.

Oh, I don’t blame you, it is a pretty general statement. You were mislead by a third party, I just don’t know why you entertained it. To be more clear, the police existing, patrolling the streets and enforcing the law is a service granted by the state. I am using it not only when I actively call the police - I am using it all the time, just passively. Crime is a known quantity - it exists, and in order for law to mean anything, somebody needs to enforce it. It is in my interest for criminals to not roam the streets, I benefit from that service at all times, not just when I specifically require it. That is a service rendered, and payment is due. If I explicitly wanted to protect my property and my property alone, I’d contact a security company - that’s not what the police is for.

 

[FAST6191]

i'm supprised this thread wasn't shutdown a while ago for the level of stupidity emanating from it i swear some of you must be commies for endosing trump or very stupid and ignorant of the facts in your face if trump is elected again democracy is F-ed plain and simple

Can't tell if troll and I have seen/recall your post history... masterful work if so.

Getting Ignored, given a cold shoulder

Why speak to the puppet when you can chat with the puppet masters?

Anyway not too much of great interest here since I last posted, at least for the ostensible topic.
Still interested in making a reasonable base for a polling scenario, one that might predict reality and describe it reasonably accurately. Seemingly hard when everybody is age, sex, location and maybe race where a notable difference and population amount (in a given area) could make a difference with anything else being interesting quirks and opinion pieces ( https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/14/opinions/republican-latino-voters-gest/index.html was a concept I noted before, link for the sake of link. All quite amusing from someone sitting in Europe where Spain and Portugal are just other countries really, and have been for centuries).

 

[Dark_Ansem]

I don’t really care how you take your L’s.

I don't, as there are no "L's" to take, unlike your case.

Crime is a known quantity - it exists, and in order for law to mean anything, somebody needs to enforce it. It is in my interest for criminals to not roam the streets, I benefit from that service at all times, not just when I specifically require it.

Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about crime. That "known quantity" snippet is especially ludicrous.

Healthcare in America has been completely removed from any semblance of a free market many, many years ago via boneheaded employer-based insurance, Social Security and other assorted legislation. Switzerland on the other hand, they have it knocked. It’s almost as if private healthcare was a perfectly serviceable model in the absence of government interventionism.

Yeah - because they took the profit aspect out of the compulsory one every citizen has to do. They made it a public service in all but name. A yearly cost of around $350 dollars is, surprise surprise, akin to a tax, rather than a crazy US-like insurance premium. Lastly, but more importantly, Americans are not Swiss. Ultimately, however, it's been proved time and again that a Universal healthcare model tends to be cheaper and overall more efficient.

 

[FAST6191]

Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about crime. That "known quantity" snippet is especially ludicrous.

I am assuming Foxi is not going for some ankh morpork style acceptable crime levels scenario when the known quantity term is employed. In which case it is a fairly common turn of phrase to indicate that while the specifics are not knowable you can make broad trends* (similar to how by definition I can't know the state of every particle of whatever in a beaker but somehow chemistry still works), generalisations and act accordingly, and laws that are not enforced are generally said not to be laws (with the added perk of precedents also being thrown in there).

*data driven approaches to policing being employed to wonderful effect not only in recent times but going fairly far back now, and every reason it can be expected to work in the future as it works wonders everywhere else it has been tried, usually better than a lot of gut instinct.

In this case. You have a certain percentage of sociopaths (well managed it is quite a useful trait, especially in the modern world, and the ladies do often go weak at the knees for such things* so tends to propagate down the generations where it might not be as well managed), you will find those hard up and desperate for various reasons (can't handle their drugs, they gambled and lost possibly to the wrong people, they had more kids than they could afford, they want that fancy lifestyle but don't have the talen, they were not well raised...), and the phrase "keeping honest people honest" is noted in security at various levels along with a lot more psychology to ponder. To that end you can reasonably predict the rise of crime, even more so once you get into dense environments beyond Dunbar's number (or, worse still, most suburban America).

*albeit you will probably hear it more as dark triad if you want to go looking there.

 

[Foxi4]

I don't, as there are no "L's" to take, unlike your case.

Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about crime. That "known quantity" snippet is especially ludicrous.

Yeah - because they took the profit aspect out of the compulsory one every citizen has to do. They made it a public service in all but name. A yearly cost of around $350 dollars is, surprise surprise, akin to a tax, rather than a crazy US-like insurance premium. Lastly, but more importantly, Americans are not Swiss. Ultimately, however, it's been proved time and again that a Universal healthcare model tends to be cheaper and overall more efficient.

1. By all objective measures your L keeps increasing in size. I don’t know why you keep dragging this out - you can just admit that you didn’t understand the difference between equal vs. equitable and now you do, or you can drop it altogether to avoid drawing attention to your boo-boo. No shame in either option, but there’s *a lot* of shame in what you’re doing right now. It’s amusing, don’t get me wrong, but it’s a bad look for you. I don’t get this bit. Is this a bit?

2. Google what the phrase “known quantity” means before commenting further, we’re not going through this again. Trust me, I’m doing you a solid.

2. It’s not a public service in any sense, the insurance requirement does not remove competition in the field of healthcare providers. In fact, they’re two entirely separate business sectors.