Covid-19 vaccine

[Alexander1970]

1. Vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended. They are far safer on your body and immune system than being exposed to the pathogen you're being vaccinated against.Maybe.
2. Equating chemicals and poisons appears to be a fallacious appeal to nature.Maybe
3. Equating viruses and vaccines appears to demonstrate a misunderstanding of what vaccines are and how they work.Maybe

1.Vaccines makes immune and "immortal" (a Phrase...) - Totally false - but,the Opinion of many,many,many,many People
2.Vaccines are safe - Partially true/false....as we have seen in the last Weeks....
3.Vaccines makes the Virus gone - Totally false - but,the Opinion from many,many,many,many,many People...

 

[Lacius]

Vaccines are safe - Partially true/false....as we have seen in the last Weeks

We haven't seen anything "in the last weeks" that does anything to suggest the vaccines are anything other than very safe.

Vaccines makes the Virus gone

Vaccines don't treat a COVID-19 infection. They help to prevent an infection from taking place, and they help keep a breakthrough infection from becoming severe.

 

[_47iscool]

@Lacius

 

[SG854]

Here is you, misrepresenting facts:



That survey, represents a a specific group of physicians and the survey is nothing about a recommendation.

I've already gone over the many times you overemphasize safety and omit side-effects, to degrees greater than the CDC does, and we know they already do the bare minimum, or less.




Saying people are behaving immorally is an intent to elicit emotional response. You can argue that it is not your fault if it actually does.



You may not like what I say, but it doesn't mean it's illogical even if you say so. Maybe you didn't understand what was being said in the first place. Cherry picking evidence is not really an option if you are concerned with facts. What do you mean good evidence vs. bad evidence?

That's your problem you hear these words like Cherry Picking but you don't know how to properly apply them.



Cherry Picking is actually what your doing. People have shown you that there is overall general consensus that vaccines are safe and effective. You go with what the majority says not with what the minority says.

You don't follow what 5% (not the exact number just a number for explaining sake) of people that are against vaccines say. Cherry Picking in this situation would be you ignoring the whole body of evidence of what the majority of doctors support and giving more weight to what the minority says. Cherry picking is using data that has little support to support your claims. Cherry picking is ignoring the majority.

Going with what the majority of doctors say helps iron out any fake doctors that are spreading lies. And also irons out any data that might have used bad methodology. @Lilith Valentine has continuously asked for sources which you fail to provide. Giving sources will help with looking at the methodology of the study, researchers often put short comings in their studies and we can better see if the research is usable or not.

That 5% may have used bad testing methods which is why the majority came out with different results. It being overall safe and effective is repeatable and that's what's important. The more it's repeatable then the more doctors that will support it.


Bad evidence is people that claim to have evidence but it was never good to begin with, probably a fake study or bad testing methods.

 

[Alexander1970]

We haven't seen anything "in the last weeks" that does anything to suggest the vaccines are anything other than very safe.

Some Vaccines needs a 3rd Shot or maybe more to "work" against Delta Version.
Some People already died after beeing "cross vaccinated" / second Shot.

Not many,a little amount...but to say SAFE ? No,really not.

 

[LumInvader]

Some Vaccines needs a 3rd Shot or maybe more to "work" against Delta Version.

The more the virus mutates, the more likely unvaccinated can catch it for a second time.

Thus, this isn't a limitation of vaccine technology as much as it's a byproduct of microevolution.

 

[The Catboy]

People are angry and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine. Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral.

The people not getting the vaccines are idiots and they are being immoral. Putting your own health at risk is one thing but deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses is stupid and immoral. If it’s not stupid and immoral, then prove me wrong. Provide sources that prove me wrong. You should be able to provide sources for your claims.

 

[Alexander1970]

The more the virus mutates, the more likely unvaccinated can catch it for a second time.

Thus, this isn't a limitation of vaccine technology as much as it's a byproduct of microevolution.

And maybe "good" and effective working Vaccines are getting "blocked" (Sputnik).....

 

[Lacius]

@Lacius

This claim is a misrepresentation of a study that actually found no increase in the rate of miscarriages among vaccinated women.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...e-risk-of-pregnancy-related-adverse-outcomes/

In the future, when you post your bullshit claims, please provide a link to the claim instead of a screenshot of a headline, and please make sure there is evidence supporting the claim. This wasn't hard to fact-check, which means you didn't do your due diligence. You just saw a headline that apparently supported your position and posted it blindly. I am engaging in a good-faith discussion where, to the best of my ability, I post what I believe to be verified facts, and I ask that you do the same.

Some Vaccines needs a 3rd Shot or maybe more to "work" against Delta Version.

A third shot probably won't be needed, given the current two-shot vaccines appear to be very effective (about 85%) against the delta variant. I wouldn't be surprised if one became optional, and I wouldn't be surprised if new variants caused a third shot to be necessary, given all of the unvaccinated people in the world.

Some People already died after beeing "cross vaccinated" / second Shot.

Not many,a little amount...but to say SAFE ? No,really not.

I'm unaware of more than one or two confirmed deaths associated with the COVID-19 vaccines in the United States, and the blood clotting issues that may have caused or contributed to these deaths have since been mitigated against. The facts are clear that the vaccines are safe and effective. Even if the vaccines had resulted in one or two deaths (in ways that couldn't be mitigated against), we are talking about 1-2 deaths out of 334 million shots. Those odds are thousands to millions of times better than your odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering death as a direct result, and that's not even addressing the fact that getting vaccinated helps protect the people around you as well.

Please follow the CDC guidance, and the guidance of virtually every reputable medical group, and get vaccinated as soon as possible. If you have concerns about whether or not you can medically get the vaccine, consult your doctor.

 

[tabzer]

concealed

I didn't conceal anything. Lacius used a single survey to suggest that 96% physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine. That simply isn't true nor is it a natural conclusion based on facts. I responded with a survey with different physicians showing different results and made no claim about the size of the bandwagon--only that it was irresponsible to make broad claims based on a survey that you saw.

You initially discredited the survey of physicians because you didn't like those physicians, which is literally cherry picking facts. After being called out on it, you are working overtime to save face. Sorry, but I find nothing in your response that supports the initial false claim of misrepresenting the meaning of a single survey. If @Lacius can support his claim with real evidence, then tat would be interesting.

Nice try though.

deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses is stupid and immoral.

Not getting vaccinated is not "deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses". I don't understand how you cannot see how propagandic and false that is.

 

[_47iscool]

Any doctor that is considered to be on the right side of politics won't be taken seriously or promoted
by the communist/marxist Biden administration.

 

[Lacius]

responded with a survey with different physicians showing different results

Responding with a cherry-picked survey from cherry-picked doctors didn't do anything to demonstrate your claim or refute mine. The vast majority of doctors in the United States have taken the vaccine (96%), and the vast majority of doctors recommend getting the vaccine.

You initially discredited the survey of physicians because you didn't like those physicians, which is literally cherry picking facts. After being called out on it, you are working overtime to save face. Sorry, but I find nothing in your response that supports the initial false claim of misrepresenting the meaning of a single survey.

Acknowledging your survey is cherry-picked data from a discredited organization of politically motivated individuals isn't itself a form of cherry-picking.

Not getting vaccinated is not "deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses". I don't understand how you cannot see how propagandic and false that is.

Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus.

Any doctor that is considered to be on the right side of politics won't be taken seriously or promoted by the communist/marxist Biden administration.

1. Whether or not a doctor identifies as politically conservative is irrelevant. All the matters is if they embrace or reject medical science. If a doctor has anti-vax positions, for example, that is a problem regardless of their politics.
2. The Biden administration is neither communist nor Marxist.

 

[_47iscool]

Biden said that antifa is an idea, not a movement. He defended and supports them.

They clearly are a communist terrorist organization that uses violence to
further their means.

 

[tabzer]

Responding with a cherry-picked survey from cherry-picked doctors didn't do anything to demonstrate your claim or refute mine.

It demonstrated the ridiculousness of using a survey to paint reality with broad strokes.

The vast majority of doctors in the United States have taken the vaccine (96%), and the vast majority of doctors recommend getting the vaccine.

So it's just about the US now.

Still would be nice to see some evidence. Sincerely, I would like to see evidence of 96% of all American doctor's standing in unison, supporting your representation.

Acknowledging your survey is cherry-picked data from a discredited organization of politically motivated individuals isn't itself a form of cherry-picking.

All surveys are targeted, which was the point. The criteria was physicians. If in your initial claim you said,"96% of the good physicians have taken the vaccine", at least your bias wouldn't be as concealed.

Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus.

Nuh-uh.

 

[Lacius]

Biden said that antifa is an idea, not a movement. He defended and supports them.

They clearly are a communist terrorist organization that uses violence to
further their means.

1. This quote is incomplete and incorrect. What Biden said was, "[Trump's] FBI director said Antifa is an idea, not an organization."
2. I am unaware of Biden ever defending or supporting Antifa.
3. There is no evidence that Antifa is a communist organization.
4. There is no evidence that Antifa is a terrorist organization.
5. Antifa is largely nonviolent.

It demonstrated the ridiculousness of using a survey to paint reality with broad strokes.

The use of the survey was relevant and was not ridiculous. I am sorry if the results of the survey are inconvenient for you.

So it's just about the US now.

1. I am from the United States.
2. I did not say it's "just about the United States." The survey demonstrates broad usage of and support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community, regardless of where the survey took place.
3. You can find surveys of doctors from the UK, for example, that show similar results and demonstrate broad support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community.
4. I've provided the survey as evidence, and I've already explained how the AMA is generally representative of American doctors and how the doctors surveyed are generally representative of American doctors.

All surveys are targeted, which was the point. The criteria was physicians.

The topic of conversation was that medical professionals broadly agree that the COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended, so of course I am going to use a survey of medical professionals. Did you have a point?

Nuh-uh.

It is verifiable fact that unvaccinated people are far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19. I have already provided evidence for these facts. If you are going to argue that these statements are wrong, you must provide evidence.

 

[tabzer]

Going with what the majority of doctors say helps iron out any fake doctors that are spreading lies. And also irons out any data that might have used bad methodology. @Lilith Valentine has continuously asked for sources which you fail to provide. Giving sources will help with looking at the methodology of the study, researchers often put short comings in their studies and we can better see if the research is usable or not.

What claims do you want sources for? I've asked a couple times already. The CDC corroborates that the vaccines have risks and the long term effects are unknown. I think that is the most radical thing I have stated.

Moral dilemma maybe what you are talking about. The CDC has not said that it is is a moral imperative to get the vaccine. There is no evidence that there is.

 

[MetoMeto]

what is your alternative? people dying and shops going bankrupt?

That attitude is whats wrong with todays world imo. Nothing against you though, but that attitude.
Forcing and blaming others is no way to anything good.
Informative and logical arguments, a lot of evidence, talks and promotion of good habits and education is the way imo.
Forcing and blaming? Not at all.
Free choice, even the wrong one is a choice, everything else is north korea. Simple as that.

But its good to have debates over this though. Nice topic.

 

[Lacius]

What claims do you want sources for? I've asked a couple times already. The CDC corroborates that the vaccines have risks and the long term effects are unknown. I think that is the most radical thing I have stated.

The CDC also acknowledges that the serious risks associated with the vaccines are extraordinarily rare, and they acknowledge the risks of long-term effects are highly unlikely. Please do not misrepresent the CDC.

One radical think you said was when you claimed unvaccinated people are not far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19.

The CDC has not said that it is is a moral imperative to get the vaccine. There is no evidence that there is.

The CDC has not explicitly said there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated, but they and the broader medical community have provided enough evidence that there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated.

 

[_47iscool]

antifa had its start in Germany.

 

[MetoMeto]

why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory

You're absolutely right!