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Far Right Presidential Candidate Wins in Argentina

Foxi4

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I probably can just by shoving you, can't I. You don't have a weapon aimed at me.
Good luck with that. You *can’t* leave without touching me, and if you do touch me, you’ve just initiated hostilities, haven’t you? If you shove me and you think my protest is legitimate then that’s assault, brother. You used violence to interrupt my exercise of freedom of speech, you’re oppressing me - that’s your point of view from earlier. If you shove me and you think you’re in the right then that’s self-defense against me holding you hostage and preventing you from leaving - that’s my point of view. One of us is an asshole in this scenario, I just need you to indicate who. Am I infringing on your freedom to move as you please by keeping you in the corner or not? I’m asking because in this scenario I’m definitely not letting you pass, and any shoving will be interpreted as an invitation to fisticuffs. Only one of us is in the right here.
 

tabzer

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@Foxi4 So do you think that if a demonstration didn't notify the government, and did their protest anyway, that Milei's government would fine/arrest them, or just represent the legal side of whomever the protest hurt? (From your libertarian pov)

If they did their protest well, didn't notify anyone, and didn't actually hurt anyone, then there would be no reason for penalty, right?
 

Foxi4

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@Foxi4 So do you think that if a demonstration didn't notify the government, and did their protest anyway, that Milei's government would fine/arrest them, or just represent the legal side of whomever the protest hurt? (From your libertarian pov)

If they did their protest well, didn't notify anyone, and didn't actually hurt anyone, then there would be no reason for penalty, right?
It might. It might not. There’s nothing in the law that explicitly indicates it will be used unfairly and, let’s be real, all laws with any punitive consequence can be. It’s not even up to him - it’s up to the individual officers and judges involved. The law is pretty clear and so long as the execution is fair, there’s no issue. Issues start, from a libertarian point of view, when liberty is unfairly limited. If the requirement to notify about protests is used to quell protests altogether then obviously that’s an infringement of freedom. It’s not the particular law that’s an issue but whether or not liberty is trampled, that’s the concern. I’m only interested in the execution, which more likely than not will be spotty initially, but this is a balancing act on the precipice of economic collapse.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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Keep dodging the question. Don’t worry, the silence in this case says more than words would.
I answered. Theres no way that a protest is the same thing as holding people hostages, neither legally nor semantically. The new year didn't bring you more clarity nor seriousness.

On a different note, there is one particular moron who started the new year in style, in argentina.
 

Foxi4

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I answered. Theres no way that a protest is the same thing as holding people hostages, neither legally nor semantically. The new year didn't bring you more clarity nor seriousness.

On a different note, there is one particular moron who started the new year in style, in argentina.
That’s not the answer to my question. The question I posited is whether or not I’m holding you prisoner if I’m holding you against the wall and preventing you from leaving. The answer is affirmative - if I am holding you against your will, for any amount of time, that is false imprisonment. If I’m doing so for a cause then you’re my hostage, by definition. I understand that intellectual dishonesty prevents you from answering, but both of those scenarios are covered by law and what you say in response is immaterial. I was just checking to see if you’ll acquiesce something that’s blatantly obvious to everyone in the room or if you’ll tow the line, even if it makes you look ridiculous.
 
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Foxi4

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Basically all legal systems in the world disagree with you and yet somehow you still think you got this 🤣🤣🤣
If you would like to test this theory, hold someone against the wall for an extended period of time against their will and see what the police has to say about it. It is *patently illegal* unless there is a legitimate legal justification for restraining someone - there are very few of those.

False imprisonment or unlawful imprisonment occurs when a person intentionally restricts another person's movement within any area without legal authority, justification, or the restrained person's permission. Actual physical restraint is not necessary for false imprisonment to occur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment

I wouldn’t even have to physically restrain you - the mere act of me preventing you from leaving a given area against your will is false imprisonment, and it’s illegal in just about every civilised country on Earth.
 

Foxi4

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You just posted an article about a group of people *winning damages* from the City of London for false imprisonment by the police. You are proving my point.

Edit: It’s literally in the first paragraph.
25085118-883C-401E-AE7B-21A97726792A.jpeg
 
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Dark_Ansem

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You just posted an article about a group of people *winning damages* from the City of London for false imprisonment by the police. You are proving my point.

Wasn't really "your" false imprisonment considering they were actively detained.. the police surely didn't stay in front of them "menacingly" holding a sign like in your "scenario"
 

Foxi4

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Wasn't really "your" false imprisonment considering they were actively detained.. the police surely didn't stay in front of them "menacingly" holding a sign like in your "scenario"
The law applies to the police, who knew? :lol: They can’t just arrest you for *no reason*. In the case above the activists were detained and prior to the court case their charges were dropped because the prosecution decided that there’s insufficient evidence to prosecute them (because their uniforms looked nothing like real police uniforms and nobody was fooled, d’uh). That means they were detained illegally which can be construed as false imprisonment, and was construed as such by the magistrate. It was ruled that the detention was illegal. You don’t have to be a police officer to be guilty of false imprisonment, however - it applies to any restriction of another person’s movement in an unjustifiable manner.
 

Dark_Ansem

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While I appreciate the sentiment of wanting the police to be held accountable, in this case it was proper imprisonment, the only false thing here was the reason. No one is arguing that false imprisonment doesn't exist, but that *your* example of false imprisonment somehow being applicable to street protest or to imaginary threatening signs is bonkers and doesn't hold up to scrutiny, even if you believe it to be true.
 

Foxi4

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While I appreciate the sentiment of wanting the police to be held accountable, in this case it was proper imprisonment, the only false thing here was the reason. No one is arguing that false imprisonment doesn't exist, but that *your* example of false imprisonment somehow being applicable to street protest or to imaginary threatening signs is bonkers and doesn't hold up to scrutiny, even if you believe it to be true.
I’m afraid that as far as UK law is concerned, the court decided otherwise and the magistrate’s word outweighs yours. The imprisonment was not “proper” because the reason for said imprisonment was false… which makes it… false imprisonment. As for my scenario being “bonkers” (it’s not, it’s actually pretty textbook, and purposed so) you’ll see protest-related penalties pop up more often now with the Public Order Act 2023 in force. Guess what it’s primarily about? Blocking traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_2023

Is it concerning in regards to the right to protest? Yes, somewhat. Does it finally allow the public to retaliate against being unlawfully imprisoned by protestors in the middle of the street, which is also egregious? Yes.

I strongly suggest that you don’t hold people up against their will for any amount of time or any reason unless you are confident you have a legitimate legal justification (shopkeeper’s privilege, perhaps citizen’s arrest, but be careful with both). You are opening yourself to criminal charges, civil liability or both, as I stated previously.

False imprisonment isn’t even the only crime you might be committing if you’re part of an illegal protest in the middle of the road either - there are many jurisdictions in which impeding flow of traffic alone is a crime. It’s a crime in the UK now (see link above), it’s a crime in Ontario, I’m sure it’s a crime in many other places.

Now, *most times* the police won’t act upon such protests because freedom of speech/expression and freedom to protest are a strong defense which opens the state itself to serious litigation which they *may or may not win*, but depending on the circumstances a court *can* rule that you are protesting in a completely unreasonable manner that either endangers others or inconveniences others to an unreasonable extent. Like holding someone against a wall for no reason whatsoever, for instance. That’s pretty unreasonable.

In my completely hypothetical scenario there is *no doubt* that a crime was being committed. Me holding a sign and protesting is not contingent on you being held against a wall. I *should* let you go. Me not letting you go makes me an asshole, not to mention a criminal. All you had to do was say that, and I’m surprised you didn’t as most people would find that conclusion self-evident. I can’t just elect to become your jailer, unless I want to get sent straight to jail myself, and rightfully so.
 

Dark_Ansem

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As for my scenario being “bonkers” (it’s not, it’s actually pretty textbook, and purposed so) you’ll see protest-related penalties pop up more often now with the Public Order Act 2023 in force. Guess what it’s primarily about? Blocking traffic.

Lol authoritarian undemocratic laws for the only purpose to hamper climate protest, sure. We will see how long it lasts to the test of time and further challenges. But sure. The fact that they made it doesn't make it right by any chance. Interesting how libertarians become legalistic for traffic but where crying out murder for vaccines.

More importantly, this new act doesn't detail false imprisonment anywhere.

False imprisonment isn’t even the only crime you might be committing if you’re part of an illegal protest in the middle of the road either - there are many jurisdictions in which impeding flow of traffic alone is a crime. It’s a crime in the UK now (see link above), it’s a crime in Ontario, I’m sure it’s a crime in many other places.

Emphasis on *now*, ad hominem laws.

The imprisonment was not “proper” because the reason for said imprisonment was false… which makes it… false imprisonmen

So not at all that ridiculous scenario of yours, and by the hands of the police.

Me not letting you go makes me an asshole, not to mention a criminal. All you had to do was say that, and I’m surprised you didn’t as most people would find that conclusion self-evident.

Most people are stupid, as one shouldn't toss criminal labels around as if they were candy. That's why criminal law is meant to be a last resort in society, except in authoritarian regimes. No question about the "assholery" of the act.

So again, your point is utterly bonkers. As you said, blocking traffic is blocking traffic, not false imprisonment.
 

KingVamp

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I completely forgot about this thread, until I was summoned. lol Even if I wanted to help, I wouldn't have the full picture anyway.

Anything else happen with the guy that won this election?
 
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Dark_Ansem

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I completely forgot about this thread, until I was summoned. lol Even if I wanted to help, I wouldn't have the full picture anyway.

Anything else happen with the guy that won this election?

Only a funny thing, I mean, kinda sad but also funny in a "ha ha" way
 

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