Hacking Discussion GPL 101 - Atmosphere and SX OS

xiaNaix

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What would they be stealing? The base operations of the SX OS emunand are based off of Atmosphere open-source code. So is SciresM going to steal his own code? Is that what you're saying?

No one using TX cares about Atmosphere or any of these other "homebrew" solutions because they don't use them. Yet the white knights keep appearing in TX threads to prostitute themselves in the name of homebrew every time there is a new SX OS release. For some reason you folks think it's going to cause SX OS users to switch over to homebrew yet it doesn't seem to be happening. My point was that when this mythical "proper open source emunand" comes out will the homebrew threads be flooded with SX OS users claiming the code was stolen from TX? No, because they don't give a shit.
 

V-Temp

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No one using TX cares about Atmosphere or any of these other "homebrew" solutions because they don't use them. Yet the white knights keep appearing in TX threads to prostitute themselves in the name of homebrew every time there is a new SX OS release. For some reason you folks think it's going to cause SX OS users to switch over to homebrew yet it doesn't seem to be happening. My point was that when this mythical "proper open source emunand" comes out will the homebrew threads be flooded with SX OS users claiming the code was stolen from TX? No, because they don't give a shit.

It wouldn't be flooded with said because of the basic fact of it not being stolen code. SciresM can't steal the code he himself wrote, and any one with half a brain even on this forum knows that the backbone of any currently available emuNAND solution is based off of his work. So any attempt to say Atmosphere stole SX code... which would be Atsmophere code... would be rightfully laughed out of the room.

So the basic premise of your claim is stupid.
 

kamesenin888

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mod snip

whats the point of this if its only local?

its not local, its like hamachi that you can play in an online environment using local tools

It wouldn't be flooded with said because of the basic fact of it not being stolen code. SciresM can't steal the code he himself wrote, and any one with half a brain even on this forum knows that the backbone of any currently available emuNAND solution is based off of his work. So any attempt to say Atmosphere stole SX code... which would be Atsmophere code... would be rightfully laughed out of the room.

So the basic premise of your claim is stupid.

nobody cares in the end, and if its the backbone, why doesnt atmosphere has it already? is it too illegal to implement, TX has 3 ways of getting it and atmosphere has 0, well I wouldnt say the backbone in the end
 
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xiaNaix

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It wouldn't be flooded with said because of the basic fact of it not being stolen code. SciresM can't steal the code he himself wrote, and any one with half a brain even on this forum knows that the backbone of any currently available emuNAND solution is based off of his work. So any attempt to say Atmosphere stole SX code... which would be Atsmophere code... would be rightfully laughed out of the room.

So the basic premise of your claim is stupid.

You keep repeating yourself. No one cares. The basic premise of users like you posting in TX threads when you don't even use the product is stupid. We get it. You love homebrew. Go post in those threads.
 

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If the "homebrew" developers weren't so busy whining about TX 24/7 you'd probably have it by now. And, when it does come, will they have just stolen the code from TX? :ha:

You mean these same devs who are creating all the code xecuter uses? Yeah that are super lazy huh? /S

You've got a really warped perspective if you feel that way.

Also, kinda ignorant of you to imply that developers who actively participate in open source projects would use code from a closed source project.

You do realize it would take more time to RE than it would to write from scratch right?

Here's a real-world analogy that you might be able to understand. It would be like trying to learn Portugese by learning Italian or french. it would be a great way to become an expert at multiple languages but it would be a horribly inefficient way to accomplish your goal as it would take triple the time and you would end up having to learn Portuguese from the ground up anyways regardless of how much French or Italian you learned.

The work is already being done. you and everyone else should see this as a good thing as it means a free alternative and higher competition in the market which nets a positive benefit to all people in this community.

the only reason that you could be against this news is if you are an employee that of xecuter and you are profiting off of their commercialization and see this as a threat to their business model. Boo hoo! Poor xecuter might not make additional millions? How will they feed their fat rich kids new lambos?

Or do you not like free stuff?
 
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xiaNaix

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You mean these same devs who are creating all the code xecuter uses? Yeah that are super lazy huh? /S

You've got a really warped perspective if you feel that way.

Also, kinda ignorant of you to imply that developers who actively participate in open source projects would use code from a closed source project.

You do realize it would take more time to RE than it would to write from scratch right?

Here's a real-world analogy that you might be able to understand. It would be like trying to learn Portugese by learning Italian or french. it would be a great way to become an expert at multiple languages but it would be a horribly inefficient way to accomplish your goal as it would take triple the time and you would end up having to learn Portuguese from the ground up anyways regardless of how much French or Italian you learned.

The work is already being done. you and everyone else should see this as a good thing as it means a free alternative and higher competition in the market which nets a positive benefit to all people in this community.

the only reason that you could be against this news is if you are an employee that of xecuter and you are profiting off of their commercialization and see this as a threat to their business model. Boo hoo! Poor xecuter might not make additional millions? How will they feed their fat rich kids new lambos?

Or do you not like free stuff?

I'm ignorant? :rofl2: I've been at this a lot longer than you have, pal.

Here's a real world analogy that you might be able to understand. These guys spend hundreds or even thousands of hours coding this "homebrew" stuff. Some of them do it just for the pats on the back but, eventually, one or more of them realizes there is big money to made. Why do all that work for nothing but Twitter followers? If you could turn your fun hobby into a six figure income you'd do the same. Would it surprise you to know that some of the people developing the "homebrew" stuff are the same ones working for TX? They'll never admit it because they are too busy playing white knight in public and black knight to feed their families (or buy that Lambo you're on about). The "homebrew" and commercial scenes have always had an incestuous relationship, going all the way back to the original PlayStation. I've seen guys (and gals) stand on stage at those hacker conferences talking about being "white hat" hackers and showing their latest exploits knowing full well they are working for a modchip company because I got them the job. I can tell you the names of the people behind every modchip ever made. If they were made public a lot of you would still be shocked that your "homebrew" heroes sold out. Like it or not, it will continue to be that way with every handheld and console in the future.

I never said I was against homebrew progress. In fact, I suspect homebrew developers will soon make Team Xecuter irrelevant. They will improve their apps so that they are as functional and attractive to end-users as SX OS. I have no doubt it will happen. I also have no doubt that, after it happens, some new features will appear in SX OS that "homebrew" devs were working on privately. Almost as if there was some connection. :yayswitch:
 

iriez

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I'm ignorant? :rofl2: I've been at this a lot longer than you have, pal.

Here's a real world analogy that you might be able to understand. These guys spend hundreds or even thousands of hours coding this "homebrew" stuff. Some of them do it just for the pats on the back but, eventually, one or more of them realizes there is big money to made. Why do all that work for nothing but Twitter followers? If you could turn your fun hobby into a six figure income you'd do the same. Would it surprise you to know that some of the people developing the "homebrew" stuff are the same ones working for TX? They'll never admit it because they are too busy playing white knight in public and black knight to feed their families (or buy that Lambo you're on about). The "homebrew" and commercial scenes have always had an incestuous relationship, going all the way back to the original PlayStation. I've seen guys (and gals) stand on stage at those hacker conferences talking about being "white hat" hackers and showing their latest exploits knowing full well they are working for a modchip company because I got them the job. I can tell you the names of the people behind every modchip ever made. If they were made public a lot of you would still be shocked that your "homebrew" heroes sold out. Like it or not, it will continue to be that way with every handheld and console in the future.

I never said I was against homebrew progress. In fact, I suspect homebrew developers will soon make Team Xecuter irrelevant. They will improve their apps so that they are as functional and attractive to end-users as SX OS. I have no doubt it will happen. I also have no doubt that, after it happens, some new features will appear in SX OS that "homebrew" devs were working on privately. Almost as if there was some connection. :yayswitch:

Reading your first post and then reading this post makes me feel like there are two different personalities writing two different messages. Your message in the first conflicts with the second. Yes, your first post was ignorant and you didn't address the points i made, you merely deflected and wrote that long rambling post. You got called out on your logical inconsistency of your message by multiple people, its not only I who noticed it.

Sounds like you realize this and you went into goal post shifting mode. Now instead of devs "stealing xecuters work" they are suddenly working together? Are you really so focused on your perspective that you cannot see the inconsistency between these two statements? How can you steal from someone if you are the one who created that thing for the person you are stealing from? Basically, your posts are nonsense.

What you wrote is not news to me. I know and have worked with many of these people in the past who have done exactly as you say. I also made it a point to shine sunlight on when this happens to expose this malbehavior.

You want to sell out against the community? Sorry, fuck that. I will always stand by what is in the best interests of end users, even when those end users are ignorant little pieces of shits who don't get it.

Im glad you understand the scene will bypass xecuter. Maybe that will temper your fanboyism a little bit, but I doubt it.
 
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xiaNaix

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Reading your first post and then reading this post makes me feel like there are two different personalities writing two different messages. Your message in the first conflicts with the second. Yes, your first post was ignorant and you didn't address the points i made, you merely deflected and wrote that long rambling post. You got called out on your logical inconsistency of your message by multiple people, its not only I who noticed it.

Sounds like you realize this and you went into goal post shifting mode. Now instead of devs "stealing xecuters work" they are suddenly working together? Are you really so focused on your perspective that you cannot see the inconsistency between these two statements? How can you steal from someone if you are the one who created that thing for the person you are stealing from? Basically, your posts are nonsense.

What you wrote is not news to me. I know and have worked with many of these people in the past who have done exactly as you say. I also made it a point to shine sunlight on when this happens to expose this malbehavior.

You want to sell out against the community? Sorry, fuck that. I will always stand by what is in the best interests of end users, even when those end users are ignorant little pieces of shits who don't get it.

Im glad you understand the scene will bypass xecuter. Maybe that will temper your fanboyism a little bit, but I doubt it.

You completely misinterpreted my first post. I was not insinuating that homebrew coders were going to use "stolen code" from SX OS. I was pointing out that when the open source emuNAND solution does become reality, SX OS users probably won't be shitting en masse in the homebrew threads accusing them of having stolen the code from TX. SX OS users don't care about what's going on in the homebrew scene because they aren't using those apps. A lot of them probably don't even know that stuff exists. Yet for some reason the homebrew flag wavers have meltdowns every time there is a new SX OS and insist on doing a flyover crap in the release thread. If you aren't using SX OS why do you care and, more importantly, why would you think SX OS users care? If you want people to stop using SX OS make something that is competitive in both features and usability. If there was nothing worth paying for in SX OS people wouldn't use it. Stop the constant whining about SX OS and make it irrelevant.

My second post explains why that won't happen. Because once homebrew is any threat to SX OS you will see new features from TX that were previously being worked on in private by the homebrew devs. Almost as if it were all coming from the same place. You know how it works, you just don't want to shine that sunlight all the way into the forest. ;)

And I'm hardly a fanboy for this incarnation of Xecuter. I've just been trying my best to salvage their good name, since some of the old-school Xbox peeps are still involved. You seem to have been around for a while so I'm sure you know what's going on there.
 
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iriez

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You completely misinterpreted my first post. I was not insinuating that homebrew coders were going to use "stolen code" from SX OS. I was pointing out that when the open source emuNAND solution does become reality, SX OS users probably won't be shitting en masse in the homebrew threads accusing them of having stolen the code from TX. SX OS users don't care about what's going on in the homebrew scene because they aren't using those apps. A lot of them probably don't even know that stuff exists. Yet for some reason the homebrew flag wavers have meltdowns every time there is a new SX OS and insist on doing a flyover crap in the release thread. If you aren't using SX OS why do you care and, more importantly, why would you think SX OS users care? If you want people to stop using SX OS make something that is competitive in both features and usability. If there was nothing worth paying for in SX OS people wouldn't use it. Stop the constant whining about SX OS and make it irrelevant.

My second post explains why that won't happen. Because once homebrew is any threat to SX OS you will see new features from TX that were previously being worked on in private by the homebrew devs. Almost as if it were all coming from the same place. You know how it works, you just don't want to shine that sunlight all the way into the forest. ;)

And I'm hardly a fanboy for this incarnation of Xecuter. I've just been trying my best to salvage their good name, since some of the old-school Xbox peeps are still involved. You seem to have been around for a while so I'm sure you know what's going on there.


You again demonstrate some pretty incredible lack of depth. "SX OS users probably won't be shitting en masse in the homebrew threads accusing them of having stolen the code from TX".

Im not sure what your point is here. It seems like you made a logically inconsistent statement and tried to goal post shift to another statement but on its face it makes no sense. Why would tx users complain about "theft" of a closed source application? You can't steal source from source that doesn't exist, duh. Why don't you go ahead and let everyone the sun is going to rise tomorrow while you are at it?

Frankly, I don't believe you anyways. Lets take a look at your original comment -

If the "homebrew" developers weren't so busy whining about TX 24/7 you'd probably have it by now. And, when it does come, will they have just stolen the code from TX? :ha:

Doesn't seem to be any way to misinterpret that statement. You clearly insinuated that the "homebrew" devs (you know, the ones writing all the code tx steals?) would somehow need to steal code from xecuter to make emunand work.

Whether your first statement or your second, both are retarded on their faces. Whether you are claiming the developers who are doing the real work need to somehow "steal" source that doesn't exist, or whether you are aserting their mongoloid fanbase wouldn't asert the code is stolen (like really? As if we would care what functionally retarded people claim? Should we really care what chemtrails or autism-vaccine or flatearthers think?)....both are demonstratably false claims that are entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

Essentially you made a dumb statement and now you are trying to muddy the waters of the conversation with hyperbole and convuluting statements to try to obscure your original stupid statement. Digging the hole deeper isn't helping.

Why not just admit it was a dumb statement and move on?
 

ANTONIOPS

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While the dongle and JIG may be legal, the “CFW” called SX OS definitely is not.
The easter egg is only visible in the nx-hbloader repo which is not licensed at all and therefore it’s All Rights Reserved: Leading to a copyright infringement by TX caused by using nx-hbloader.


Leading to a copyright infringement....that thing that no one in here has ever done
 
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xiaNaix

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Why not just admit it was a dumb statement and move on?

It was clearly a joke. Do you not see the silly emoticon with it's tongue sticking out?

I didn't hear you complaining back in the 360 scene when they were holding back exploits to keep their hardware products relevant. Where was your Superman cape then?
 

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All these anti-piracy people in here that have thread history with xci/nsp management tools. :wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko:
I'm not necessarily "anti-piracy" I just don't pirate. I like the ability to dump my switch carts so I don't have to rummage around through my millions of game discs to find the one I want. That doesn't make me hypocritical if I were to play with xci/nsp management tools.
 

iriez

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It was clearly a joke. Do you not see the silly emoticon with it's tongue sticking out?

I didn't hear you complaining back in the 360 scene when they were holding back exploits to keep their hardware products relevant. Where was your Superman cape then?

So now it was a joke? Notice how you've shifted your position several times? You make it impossible to believe you. Why should I believe this statement over the first statement or the second statement that they were "working together"? Its all nonsense and its all just you trying to dig yourself out of that hole of stupid you created.

As for the x360, I'm not aware of xecuter ever finding new exploits? I would know best as I was the founder of the group that released the most cfws for the x360. I worked directly with c4e and others to bring everything to public.

But it's funny you bring that up since xecuter actually tried to pull a fast one on the community and I stood up for the community and ruined a nearly 10 year relationship with xecuter over it, as well as my relationship with c4e, which I had to burn in order to shed light on the situation. Specifically I put the community ahead of personal profit. Something that clearly most people are not willing to do because they are hypocritical pieces of shit where I actually stand by my morals.

Now you are just making yourself look extra stupid.... This entire article exposing xecuter malfeasance was written by me on Xbox-scene and posted here on gbatemp in this thread -

https://gbatemp.net/threads/a-memoir-team-hyperx-liteon-encryption.194333/

How's that for my fucking cape? You cannot even begin to understand what I exposed there. Literal millions of dollars worth of products/licenses that I burned to the fucking ground to stand up for the community. Where do you think that money would have came from? From every end user in this community who would be forced to purchase these hardware/software licenses since there were no options at the time to mod these newer revision drives on the xbox360. I have personally given away thousands of dollars worth of xecuter products in giveaways and contests as part of a sponsorship program xbins had with xecuter. How do you think my move, exposing xecuters actions effected that sponsorship? Do you seriously have no idea how much money I have poured out of my personal bank account to keep these infrastructure projects operational and public for consumption? Do you not realize that by exposing this plan that I directly shot myself in the foot, essentially burning the money train that helped keep my servers alive?

Listen...there are several types of people in this community. There are people like me, who are infrastructure builders, who provide servers and hosting for platforms that we are discussing right now. There are developers who contribute highly specialized labor for free to the community so that we can enjoy 3rd party software/homebrew on our consoles. There are software and hardware security specialists who devote endless hours to scoping and RE'ing to slowly learn how these systems are protected, and then there is the 99.9% of the rest of everyone, which mostly doesn't understand jack fucking shit about how the community is built or runs, comes on forums like this and shits like little fucking children all over people like me and developers like m4xw who sacrife their personal finances and highly specialized labor for free, with no expectation of monetary compensation.

All the while we are busting our asses or draining our bank accounts so that people can enjoy their hard earned purchases more. And what do we get? A slap in the fucking face by pieces of shit like you and others who don't understand the first goddamn thing about what goes into reverse engineering console security to bring all these features to the public. If you did understand it you surely wouldn't be here on gbatemp defending the actions of this company.

Then companies like xecuter come in, steal others hard work who have no expectation of compensation, who license their community code only so that they receive attribution for it, and then they make millions off it and can't even bother to credit the fucking authors?

Do you realize what a whiney little children you and everyone else looks like in the face of these facts? Seriously you and everyone need a history and ethics lesson on how this scene works. Theres a massive difference on companies that innovate and bring massive benefit to the community (like xecuter in the early days) vs xecuter today who bring nearly nothing to the plate and exploit those willing to do work for free to subsidize their company. Xecuter in the xbox and early xbox360 days, when it was ran by Paul/Raptop had actual morality and not only offered innovative products that allowed end users much easier access to hardware modification of their consoles, but they actually gave back to the community massively. They had their hands in everything, contributing greatly to the homebrew community.

The only thing I've seen xecuter of today do is offer some palsy handouts for the gbatemp homebrew bounty. A fucking pittance compared to what the previous owner of xecuter would do. Where do you think xecuter gets its millions of revenue? From the end users of this community. They put very little money into R&D, the majority of the code for their products is taken from open source projects which they cannot even give fucking credit to, and we are supposed to support them raping the community wholesale?

How about you and everyone grow a pair of goddamn balls and recognize that their actions are a poison on society. When you steal 95% of the basis for your product, and you cannot even be fucked to give back to the community, what good are you to a ecosystem? Nothing, you're a goddamn parasite.

Piracy is not a black and white discussion. There are valid legal use cases to all of these hardware products that allow you to expand the feature set of your console. Being able to backup your own physically owned games to protect them is the basis of why gbatemp and other social media platfroms even allow piracy related discussion, often in the form of 'backup' talk. There are clear valid legal use cases that allow us to tip toe around this contextually sensitive topic. There's also plenty of evidence that console piracy boosts sales, making this discussion incredibly nuanced.

But there is no legal loophole or valid use case for stealing open source authors work and not crediting them. Thats just flat out illegal without any valid argument either from a legal or a moral perspective. Yet here you, and all your little shithead xecuter fanboy troll army's are coming and acting like there is some sort of angle or narrative that its somehow ok to fuck the people who are the basis of this community. It shows how little you and these other children and grown manchildren have thought about this situation and how little knowledge you possess on how this scene works.
 
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iriez

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All these anti-piracy people in here that have thread history with xci/nsp management tools. :wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko:

I hope you don't mean me? I've never tried to proclaim im anti-piracy. I've done the exact opposite, I've provided not only my position on piracy but also supported it with documentation and evidence.

There are valid legal arguments for backups.

Where is your valid legal argument for license violation? Under what circumstances is it ok to steal other peoples work, profit off it and not give credit? How does that help our ecosystem? Thats not a rhetorical question, I challenge you or anyone else to argue how that position is right, or how its beneficial to our ecosystem.
 

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I hope you don't mean me? I've never tried to proclaim im anti-piracy. I've done the exact opposite, I've provided not only my position on piracy but also supported it with documentation and evidence.

There are valid legal arguments for backups.

Where is your valid legal argument for license violation? Under what circumstances is it ok to steal other peoples work, profit off it and not give credit? How does that help our ecosystem? Thats not a rhetorical question, I challenge you or anyone else to argue how that position is right, or how its beneficial to our ecosystem.
pirating is taking other peoples work without crediting them for their efforts, pirating licenses is the same thing, if you are a pirate why do you care so much?
 
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... people like me and developers like m4xw who sacrife their personal finances and highly specialized labor for free, with no expectation of monetary compensation.

All the while we are busting our asses or draining our bank accounts so that people can enjoy their hard earned purchases more. And what do we get? A slap in the fucking face ...

I hope it was worth it LOL. Only a fool would work like this
 
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iriez

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I hope it was worth it LOL. Only a fool would work like this

Congratulations, you've demonstrated exactly the kind of immature behavior im talking about in my above post.

Just like people who serve in the military to protect the rights of people they don't agree with, I too accept that my contributions to the scene will be under-appreciated by a large subset of grown-children, including yourself.

pirating is taking other peoples work without crediting them for their efforts, pirating licenses is the same thing, if you are a pirate why do you care so much?

Piracy is the theft of commerically licensed products for sale to the public. The difference here is you are essentially stealing (mostly) from multi-national billion dollar corporations who have bought up the game development market. In a lot of cases when you choose to pirate a game, you probably wouldn't have bought it anyways, thereby not depriving these corporations of revenue. If you are pirating a game from a small indie developer it hurts them much more and I have a stronger position for these use cases. Im a firm believer that if the game is good enough to play, its good enough to buy. Thats my personal position but I try not to judge others against that position because others are not as fortunate as I am. There is also the previously discussed backup use case, which articulates you should be able to store images of your own legally purchased software since the company doesn't give you the option to do so with your physical games.

When you steal open source code without attrribution, you are directly hurting the developers who make your products possible/better. There is also no legal argument for this. This has long-term effects upon development. I personally know several developers who feel burnt out from the xecuter theft without attribution.

The problem is that most people think in black and whites. They can only see the perspective from a narrow vision and don't understand cause and effect. The cause here is theft of source code without attribution, and the effect is that the less developers contributing to the switch scene means slower progress. The way this will be most apparent is on newly patched units. xecuter apparently no longer has the means for real H/W RE/R&D, meaning they are not going to be the ones uncovering new exploits that their hardware can take advantage of, nor did they ever really? Others have always found the means, and xecuter has relied upon their work to base their products off of. Give me a single example otherwise, im all ears. This means they have to rely upon the real talent to discover these holes, then they copy it to build their products off of.

But what happens when all the real talent is disenfranchised because this shitty company can't even bother to give them credit? What happens when these people no longer want to publicly disclose their work because all it will be used for is piracy?

Do you realize this has been exactly the case in the ps4 scene for the last year? This is not just speculation. This actually happens. Mathieulh has had a exploit chain for ps4 systems for a while and has chosen not to release it. Why? Becuse the only thing that the previous exploits were being used for is piracy.

Thats exactly whats happening with xecuter. They have focused solely on piracy without expanding upon the homebrew aspects of the scene. They have chosen to steal all of the homebrew stuff without crediting them, while only focusing their own labor on piracy efforts. While great for the people who buy their products solely for piracy, it ends up fucking the rest of the community in the long run by creating a toxic ecosystem for developers.

I get that most people don't understand this, but when you have someone with nearly 2 decades experience working in the underground of this community telling you exactly how it is, don't you think you should take in the new information and adjust your stance?

The TL;DR of that is basically - Piracy of games doesn't seem to effect the market. Game producers still produce games despite piracy. But the theft of open source code without attribution personally attacks individual hardworking developers who are the ones behind the innovations that the products the offenders are based upon. Think about that for a second and actually let your brain process it. Im not sure you truly see the irony here. When these hardworking security researchers watch these companies rip their shit off without giving them credit, the only thing they've asked for, it dis-incentivizes them from future progress.

Incentives for game developers are still there. Companies make millions (and in some cases billions) off games despite piracy.

Where is the incentive for a security researcher who contributes open source code? The incentive is social. It makes them feel good to have their identity associated with an achievement that is rewarded by the community. But what if this incentive is taken away from them? What if the only thing they asked for is taken away?

What incentive then is there for security researchers to release their work?

There is none. That is the point im trying to nail into your head and others, but you all cannot seem to grasp it. You cannot seem to grasp it because you don't have the knowledge or history to create the framework for understanding. But if you acutally read and process what im telling you, and understand this is not just speculation this really happens in our community, then you can start to understand the cause and effect of this behavior.
 
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Lol, get a life dude. Nobody cares about your petty scene drama. If developers or whoever don't have incentive then maybe they should think for a minute and don't do whatever it is they're doing at all. Don't come here whining for attribution when it's not given because nobody gives a shit
 
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xiaNaix

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I get that most people don't understand this, but when you have someone with nearly 2 decades experience working in the underground of this community telling you exactly how it is, don't you think you should take in the new information and adjust your stance?

Yeah, we get it Iriez. You're a super important guy. :rolleyes: If I spent 20 years hanging around on IRC and running a download site without making any money I'd be bitter too.
 

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