Homebrew Is it even worth waiting for homebrew on a patched switch on 10.X.0?

[Elodain]

anybody that says its unhackable are the same pests that infest every sngle console hack scene. they are ALWAYS proven wrong every single time.

Look how long it's taken to get some of these systems hacked through software though.

The Wii Mini was released in 2012. It wasn't hacked until last year. that's roughly NINE YEARS to finally manage to hack a hardware revision of a console that is notoriously easy to hack. There is STILL no software hacks for the Xbox 360 after the King Kong exploit was fixed fairly early on. You want to hack your 360, you're soldering some shit onto the motherboard or drilling a hole in a chip. It took about 4 years before a free software based hacking method was released for the 3DS. Until then it was R4's for DS mode ONLY, and when we finally broke into 3DS mode, it was all about Gateway cards and such, which yes, did exploit a software vulnerability, but still needed HARDWARE to run anything worth running.

The PS4 STILL isn't fully hacked. Yeah we have untethered "jailbreaks" that allow us to run homebrew and such until we power down, but we are still a ways a way from having a full hack.

The only reason why the Switch is hackable AT ALL without a modchip right now, is because Nintendo got lazy and used off shelf parts from Nvidia instead of collaborating to make a custom chip or something, so they ended up going with a chip that was vulnerable to an exploit that basically nobody knew about at the time and effects in some capacity or another MANY more devices that use the Tegra X1, as opposed to JUST the Switch, but that's Nvidia's failure, not Nintendo's. And they then ordered Nvidia to create a revision of the chip with the vulnerability removed. Any software hacks that have been discovered independent of the RCM exploit was patched with a quickness by Nintendo.

These hardware manufacturers are getting smarter. The more we break into their systems the more they learn in order to prevent us from doing so. It's only going to get worse from here too.

It's not that these consoles are completely infallible and will never be broken, it's that the difficulty to do so is steadily increasing with every console generation, hardware revision, and firmware update. It's taking longer and longer to develop these hacks that don't require buying a device and physically modifying the hardware. Waiting for a free software hack is becoming more and more impractical as time passes by, to the point that if there is an alternative in the form of a slightly inferior model of the same system or a modchip, you're better served going that route and enjoying the console while it's in it's prime instead of waiting for what could be another 6-10 years when the console is EOL and bordering on being classed as Retro, all so you can be stubborn and say "HA! See I TOLD you it would be hacked for free. Bet all those fools that paid a little more for an unpatched unit or put a chip in theirs feel silly now!" And having to play catch up on a console that the rest of us have endlessly enjoyed and moved on from and return to more for nostalgia than to experience new things.

When he say it's unhackable, we aren't saying it will NEVER be broken. We're simply saying that it's unhackable as of now and is likely to stay that way until the console is way past relevance and being actively developed for and maintained by it's manufacturer.

 

[deathblade200]

These hardware manufacturers are getting smarter. The more we break into their systems the more they learn in order to prevent us from doing so. It's only going to get worse from here too.

It's not that these consoles are completely infallible and will never be broken, it's that the difficulty to do so is steadily increasing with every console generation, hardware revision, and firmware update. It's taking longer and longer to develop these hacks that don't require buying a device and physically modifying the hardware.

I'd really argue against this idk where the idea comes from but a lot of older systems were harder to hack than current gen. hell Ps5 has already been hacked but yet vita took 6 years to produce anything outside of pspemu hacks making it at the time even less exploitable than even the switch is rn. Yifan Lu claimed vita was unhackable as well . more than anything it depends on who is working on the hacks and honestly Switch seems rather stagnant in general with it seeming like nobody wants to work on it even when it comes to homebrew. regardless I've seen this repeated loss of hope about hacks over and over again through the years

 

[The Real Jdbye]

I don't think I was clear in the post, I know for sure I am on Mariko, I know there are no software exploits atm or incoming.
My question is if an actual software exploit is foreseeable or if I can use the mod chips without using the proprietary SX bootloader or OS.

If there is a software exploit, it's very likely we won't see it until after the end of the Switch's life cycle. And even that's a very big maybe. If past experiences are an indication, everything ends up hacked eventually. It's very hard to make completely secure software (or hardware). But console manufacturers take security more seriously now than ever so it's getting harder and harder to discover new usable exploits, so I wouldn't expect anything.

 

[l7777]

I'd really argue against this idk where the idea comes from but a lot of older systems were harder to hack than current gen. hell Ps5 has already been hacked but yet vita took 6 years to produce anything outside of pspemu hacks making it at the time even less exploitable than even the switch is rn. Yifan Lu claimed vita was unhackable as well . more than anything it depends on who is working on the hacks and honestly Switch seems rather stagnant in general with it seeming like nobody wants to work on it even when it comes to homebrew. regardless I've seen this repeated loss of hope about hacks over and over again through the years

Are you purely basing your beliefs on the future of Switch exploits on what has happened with past consoles?

 

[RednaxelaNnamtra]

reading your posts give me an aneurysm. "source" is never used as anything but a way to put somebody down simple as that. even when a source is given they use appeal to authority to attempt to discredit it and avoid admitting they are wrong. on top of that not everything needs a "source" and can be processed with this crazy rare thing called logic which for something like this is the case but again "source" is just an attempt to discredit. anybody who says its unhackable is just straight up stupid and disregards history. no its not hackable NOW but it will inevitably be eventually. I just absolutely can't stand any fucker that goes "source?"

First most of us don't claim it's unhackable, we claim it will probably not be hacked via software only any time near, maybe even never. This is a very important distinction.

Second we don't just quote SciresM, we also explained the reasoning behind it, that is how small the attack surface is, that we have full reimplementations of it, and that many people invested quite a bit of time into trying to find an exploit on this well documented small part of code.
For example I'm a developer, so I can read the explanations given by SciresM and others and validate it to a certain degree.
I checked how small the code base for the kernel and the trust zone is via atmospheres reimplementation, and in my experience it's small enough for a person or small team to have a full grasp about how each part interacts with each other. This means it's much harder to make big mistakes without anyone noticing, especially in a team, and even harder if they also have things like unit tests.
When you compare it to other kernels like the Linux kernel, it's a difference like night and day. Most apps you use probably have a much bigger code base, and even something seemingly simple like Paint, a photo viewer or probably even notepad has more code then the switch kernel and trustzone.

 

[Elodain]

hell Ps5 has already been hacked

That's a bit of a disingenuous statement.
He have yet to have a PS5 jailbreak. There has been a but of info dumped off the console, and a Blu-Ray disc exploit had been found.

First off all, being able to dump some info off the PS5 using vulnerabilities that were initially discovered for the PS4 that just happened to still be present in the PS5 is HARDLY having a full hack when there is next to nothing available for it, let alone a CFW or even HEN. That MAY be coming soon, but most people aren't gonna be able to use it because it requires a specific firmware that most people have moved on from already or never had.

Second off, the Blu-Ray exploit requires you to burn discs, which not only is a step backwards when you think about it in terms of progress in developing hacks, but requires someone to BUY (in the same vein Patched switch owners have to buy a modchip and possibly install service) a Blu-Ray burner and spindles of discs. I don't have a Blu-Ray player outside of my consoles let alone a Blu-Ray burner. It may not be a modchip but it's still a hardware based exploit. On top of that, this exploit also seems to effect the PS4 and even PS3, so the fact that is hadn't been discovered until recently is just pure happenstance. It's not a PS5 exclusive hack, it just happened to still be viable on the PS5. The exploit is also fixed in latest firmware. IF it wasn't, it wouldn't have been released to the public. The vast majority of people aren't sitting on their PS5's in order for a hack to come to their firmware. They're going online, updating, and killing each other in CoD or what have you. This means that most PS5's are unhackable and will probably be unhackable for the foreseeable future. It will be broken eventually sure, but I think most people aren't gonna sit and wait for it. They bough a game console, not a game console shaped paperweight.

 

[TomSwitch]

I'd really argue against this idk where the idea comes from but a lot of older systems were harder to hack than current gen. hell Ps5 has already been hacked but yet vita took 6 years to produce anything outside of pspemu hacks making it at the time even less exploitable than even the switch is rn. Yifan Lu claimed vita was unhackable as well . more than anything it depends on who is working on the hacks and honestly Switch seems rather stagnant in general with it seeming like nobody wants to work on it even when it comes to homebrew. regardless I've seen this repeated loss of hope about hacks over and over again through the years

PS5 hack is a meh, it‘s only for piracy and nothing else, comparing with Switch where there is total domination is ridiculous.

I think TheFlow is amazing and is one of the best, just saying the state of PS5 hack is meh.

 

[TomSwitch]

First most of us don't claim it's unhackable, we claim it will probably not be hacked via software only any time near, maybe even never. This is a very important distinction.

Second we don't just quote SciresM, we also explained the reasoning behind it, that is how small the attack surface is, that we have full reimplementations of it, and that many people invested quite a bit of time into trying to find an exploit on this well documented small part of code.
For example I'm a developer, so I can read the explanations given by SciresM and others and validate it to a certain degree.
I checked how small the code base for the kernel and the trust zone is via atmospheres reimplementation, and in my experience it's small enough for a person or small team to have a full grasp about how each part interacts with each other. This means it's much harder to make big mistakes without anyone noticing, especially in a team, and even harder if they also have things like unit tests.
When you compare it to other kernels like the Linux kernel, it's a difference like night and day. Most apps you use probably have a much bigger code base, and even something seemingly simple like Paint, a photo viewer or probably even notepad has more code then the switch kernel and trustzone.

It‘s my observation that SciresM never use the cause I say so so it is, trust me period, method of leadership. I also don’t think there are many blind follower (if there is any at all).

 

[TomSwitch]

For the believers: Dr. Strange is going to bring the hack over from multiverse 615 on 15 June next year if you are nice, but if you are naughty then no present for you, it only takes one of you to be naughty but no body can argue that this is impossible. You can definitely argue that it is worth the wait if you wish to do so.

 

[smf]

anybody that says its unhackable are the same pests that infest every sngle console hack scene. they are ALWAYS proven wrong every single time. as stated before the ONLY way a device could be unhackable is for it to be a perfectly coded which is literally impossible to do. I've seen this same "its unhackable" shit time and time again it needs to end already. this is literally the same bullshit I saw for the vita at the 5 year point.

What about the pests who infest every single console hacking scene who insist that consoles are always hackable?

 

[smf]

The Wii Mini was released in 2012. It wasn't hacked until last year. that's roughly NINE YEARS to finally manage to hack a hardware revision of a console that is notoriously easy to hack.

9 years to hack a console that few with the right skills, actually cared about.

 

[smf]

If past experiences are an indication, everything ends up hacked eventually.

The switch is already hacked. Early models can use fusee gelee, later models can use modchips.

There is no guarantee that inevitable hacks use only software (take a look at xbox 360).

 

[TomSwitch]

The switch is already hacked. Early models can use fusee gelee, later models can use modchips.

There is no guarantee that inevitable hacks use only software (take a look at xbox 360).

There is a good reason why HW hack will continue to be allowed. HW hack and anti HW hack both has a recurring cost (meaning for every unit some cost will be incurred). The HW hack cost is going to deter users and the anti HW hack is going to deter the console manufacturing from employing them and they may decide that the cost deterrence to user is enough already.

 

[smf]

There is a good reason why HW hack will continue to be allowed. HW hack and anti HW hack both has a recurring cost (meaning for every unit some cost will be incurred). The HW hack cost is going to deter users and the anti HW hack is going to deter the console manufacturing from employing them and they may decide that the cost deterrence to user is enough already.

Interesting speculation, but fusee gelee was a hardware hack and nintendo also tried to block the mod chips.

What we haven't seen them do is completely throw away the switch and start again, so it's more likely they are just balancing the amount of money they will pay to get rid of them.

 

[TomSwitch]

Interesting speculation, but fusee gelee was a hardware hack and nintendo also tried to block the mod chips.

What we haven't seen them do is completely throw away the switch and start again, so it's more likely they are just balancing the amount of money they will pay to get rid of them.

It's not a speculation, it's only an argument, the cost is real and Nintendo continue to ship unpatched unit for how long for what reason? I would speculate that it was for cost reason that there weren't any patched unit out sooner, you get patched unit only when it is convenient, like when a new mask is to be made anyway.

 

[HalfScoper]

bro... 7 pages for a pretty easy question (which got answered on the first already)... and people still engage in this discussion, which once more out of many times on GBAtemp turned into a mixed cesspool of facts vs opinions, "experts" (quotation marks cuz I wouldn't consider myself one aswell to call others such (except SciresM)) vs people who obviously know nothing but like to speak anyway (didn't name anyone but hey if you (the person reading this) are offended you know what that means).

For the sake of the sanity of people, mods do us a favor and close this thread.

 

[deathblade200]

What about the pests who infest every single console hacking scene who insist that consoles are always hackable?

considering devices will ALWAYS be hackable unless humans learn someway to perfect coding which is factually impossible. so its not only asinine but also unrealistic to claim a device is unhackable regardless of any of the "this is locked down thats locked down blah blah" all this shit is all clichés I've heard in the past and always end up with the same result. its one thing to claim something is hard to hack and its another to claim its just unhackable. oh and just to be clear SciresM NEVER said it was unhackable so people need to stop quoting him as such he was more realistic about it being doubtful but not straight up going yep unhackable.

 

[smf]

SciresM NEVER said it was unhackable so people need to stop quoting him as such he was more realistic about it being doubtful but not straight up going yep unhackable.

He pretty much did.



In all seriousness: I've re-implemented their secure monitor as open source software twice. It has no bugs. I've re-implemented their kernel as open source software. It has no exploitable bugs. Software hax isn't happening unless NV made bootrom mistake (unlikely imo).

 

[TomSwitch]

considering devices will ALWAYS be hackable unless humans learn someway to perfect coding which is factually impossible. so its not only asinine but also unrealistic to claim a device is unhackable regardless of any of the "this is locked down thats locked down blah blah" all this shit is all clichés I've heard in the past and always end up with the same result. its one thing to claim something is hard to hack and its another to claim its just unhackable. oh and just to be clear SciresM NEVER said it was unhackable so people need to stop quoting him as such he was more realistic about it being doubtful but not straight up going yep unhackable.

It is commonly accepted that you can’t prove a negative. Virtually impossible is quite often stated without “virtually” and while strictly speaking that is not strictly true for most intent and purpose except for scientific discussion it is fine. When some body say let’s meet at 1pm tomorrow whether the person will turn up on time depends a lot on who the person is, but no matter who there is no certainty and it don’t matter that much that there is no certainty (most of the time to be precise).

 

[RednaxelaNnamtra]

considering devices will ALWAYS be hackable unless humans learn someway to perfect coding which is factually impossible. so its not only asinine but also unrealistic to claim a device is unhackable regardless of any of the "this is locked down thats locked down blah blah" all this shit is all clichés I've heard in the past and always end up with the same result. its one thing to claim something is hard to hack and its another to claim its just unhackable. oh and just to be clear SciresM NEVER said it was unhackable so people need to stop quoting him as such he was more realistic about it being doubtful but not straight up going yep unhackable.

Even when people make mistakes and add bugs to code, that doesn't automatically mean that its exploitable. You could have a kernel with 100 Bugs, where its still not possible to take over the system, since you need special types of bugs to make it exploitable.
There are also many ways to catch bugs early on, like unit tests and pen testing.
What people often forget when comparing the past systems and new ones is that much was learned since then, many mitigations got added, from things like the mentioned tests, to things like Address Space Randomization, virtualization and random delays in critical code parts (like in most of the switch bootrom, except the one part where external code is loaded).
So its getting harder to exploit every new system. The only reason we any software only switch exploits at all is just luck.