Konami temporarily delisting all digital releases of Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 due to historical footage licensing

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The Metal Gear franchise has a tendency to focus on war as part of its main narrative, and is one that frequently uses real-world historical facts in order to reinforce the story's impact. In the case of Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3, they even utilized archival footage from events such as the Cold War. Because of that, both games are being taken down from digital storefronts.

Konami has been unable to acquire the licensing required to keep both games listed on storefronts, and so they will be "temporarily" delisting Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 from a variety of platforms. Some of these include the recent GOG release of Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, the 3DS's Metal Gear Solid: Snake Eater 3D, both the PlayStation 3 and Vita's releases of the standalone Metal Gear Solid 2 HD and 3 HD, as well as the PlayStation Now streaming version of the Metal Gear Solid HD Collection, which means it'll also result in the takedown of Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker HD, despite being uninvolved in the licensing issue.

Which products will be temporarily removed?​

・PlayStation®3 METAL GEAR SOLID 2 SONS OF LIBERTY HD EDITION
・PlayStation®3 METAL GEAR SOLID 3 SNAKE EATER HD EDITION
・PlayStation®3 METAL GEAR SOLID HD EDITION
・PlayStation®Vita METAL GEAR SOLID 2 SONS OF LIBERTY HD EDITION
・PlayStation®Vita METAL GEAR SOLID 3 SNAKE EATER HD EDITION
・PlayStation®Vita METAL GEAR SOLID HD COLLECTION
・PlayStation™Now METAL GEAR SOLID HD COLLECTION
・Xbox 360 METAL GEAR SOLID HD EDITION: 2 & 3
・Nintendo 3DS METAL GEAR SOLID SNAKE EATER 3D
・GOG.com METAL GEAR SOLID 2 SUBSTANCE
・NVIDIA® SHIELD™ METAL GEAR SOLID 2 HD for SHIELD TV
・NVIDIA® SHIELD™ METAL GEAR SOLID 3 HD for SHIELD TV

Konami has not mentioned when they will be able to put these games back on digital storefronts, but they'll be gone sometime later today, on November 8th.

:arrow: Source
 

Marc_LFD

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No, never been into pro evolution soccer. But I did see that they got a New "MLB POWER PROS" game for the switch, looks like ps2 graphics though. :blink:
I'm not a big fan of soccer fans, but I enjoy playing it (specifically PES 2018).

Seeing how dreadful Konami's newer games are, I prefer they don't do anything.
 

Marc_LFD

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So sad that we didn't even get the HD Collection on PS4 at least. All the good games are stuck on PS3 now.
You could shove the PS3 Top Loader model somewhere and play MGS TLC.

It's interesting how PS3 has the complete MGS collection. In fact, it's the only console that does.
 
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FAST6191

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Wait... weren't historical films royalty free?
No and I am not even sure where this myth comes from/finds itself so prevalent from; I thought I was familiar with most of the misconceptions here but guess I am meeting a new one.

By and large most historical films were just footage/photos/whatever taken by a journalist or whatever and no different to taping a play put on in the building opposite at the same time, or a book written in said same location at the same time. https://www.youtube.com/user/britishpathe for one of the more notable sources on that front.

If it was a work for hire or otherwise commissioned by various governments they might have released it for free or been compelled to release it for free. https://www.copyrightlaws.com/copyright-laws-in-u-s-government-works/ being among the more notable in that one.

Depending upon the age and nature of the work and location then some of it might have lapsed into public domain before the absolute limit ( https://gbatemp.net/threads/new-in-the-public-domain-for-2021.580143/ , this is to say works from 1925 are freely available this year, and in a couple of months we will have 1926). In the US the most common reason for this is lack of registration (copyright is automatic but you have to register for it to last longer at times, and also do some more fun things with lawsuits as far as damages), and not all things will have been (though the sensible money is anything of historical significance will have been properly handled), though might get a few that lapsed out of and then back into with various extensions.

You might also face the ripping problem. Even if the base tape is copyright free the one that ripped it and cleaned it up then said cleanup is (same idea as owning the vhs does not entitle you to the director's cut 4k ultra fancy rip). This would mean you get to find a copy of whatever work you are after (might well be rare and hard to come by in original form) and rip that, possibly before doing your own cleanup. See also public domain books but if someone went through and did a bunch of typesetting it still means you can't just scan and release that, even if you could OCR the text and release that.
 
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FAST6191

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anybody know what this post is talking about?
Presumably the geforce now leak from a little while back
https://gamerant.com/nvidia-geforce-now-leak-sony-microsoft-aaa-titles/
In it a bunch of titles slated for geforce now (nvidia's run at cloud gaming) were apparently leaked, metal gear solid 2 and 3 among them.
It is possible that the upcoming release of such things triggered a renegotiation of any footage agreements they might have previously had; many such things are restricted to what works they are allowed on such that you can't just endlessly reuse one thing (more interesting in games than almost anything else where new versions appear all the time; how many times did various rating agencies spill the beans on emulated versions of classic games?), maybe in addition to general time limits/number of copies/locations/remix potential/...
That said I would have gone with pure coincidence here.
 

Spider_Man

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How someone is able to "profit" off material they did not film or create and own ownership of it.

More like some rich person with more money than sense can throw some cash at the legal system and say i want ownership of this, anyone who wants to use it, has to pay me.

I thought this would fall under the freedom of information act.
 

Viri

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I don't know if I'm in the minority. But when I first seen these scenes as a teen, I recall being caught off guard, because they seemed so out of place in the cutscene. It went from in game graphic scenes to irl scenes. I just remember finding them out of place and weird.


Maybe that was intentional? :P
 

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Now that I've noticed, we really need a re-release of the series for current consoles.

It must be hard to need a PS3, X360, PS Vita or 3DS just to play Metal Gear Solid 3 (and some of those consoles like 3DS don't even run the game that well).

I think it difficult for games to be added back to the store on these consoles even more considering that most are on life support at the moment.
rpcs3 runs mgs2, 3 and 4 great on pc, in 4k 60 fps glory :)
 

FAST6191

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How someone is able to "profit" off material they did not film or create and own ownership of it.

More like some rich person with more money than sense can throw some cash at the legal system and say i want ownership of this, anyone who wants to use it, has to pay me.

I thought this would fall under the freedom of information act.
It is generally a concept called "work for hire", though can be bound up in employment contracts.
In the basic sense the person that does the thing that meets the creative threshold gets the copyright. In doing so they get the exclusive right to produce copies of that work (give or take the far use things of education, criticism/review, satire and whatnot) for the length of the copyright (again we are shortly to see the works from 1926 meet this length in the US). It is however a right you can sell/lease/rent/... -- taking a photo is easy, developing it/replicating it 900 times, shipping it around the world, dealing with court cases when people take liberties with it... that is a pain to do. You might sell that right for a lump sump, or smaller cut, or any other number of contractual arrangements you can do with normal items you own.
Equally individuals lack the ability to do things dozens grouping together might have then you get work for hire lest you have to determine a split and keep track of them (and their myriad descendants).
This need not be a big film or stage production and can instead take the form of a news organisation that says for a salary then we will pay your travel, room and board and provide a shiny camera if you go take pictures, we however will own said pictures.

Rich people (see sonny bono copyright extension if you want to see the last one in the US) have lobbied for the extension of said copyright on multiple occasions (if you want to go back to statute of queen anne then original length was not anywhere near what it is today and was more in line with patents). However the principle of work for hire is a sound one from where I sit, one allowed by general ideas of ownership or items and whatnot.
They don't however generally say I want to own this and magic up rights out of thin air -- they have to find the owners of said things and come to an arrangement with them. This might be fairly easily accomplished for said "archival" type deals; news is an expensive hobby, as were cameras until about 20 years ago, which meant most of the good stuff was made by corporations and the general nature of corporations (they grow until they become top heavy and then get bought out with the cruft let go) means the ownership of things tends to be fairly clear cut and easy to track down ("this company bought this company/their assets which was then bought by this company" all being public records and such that any number of accountants and lawyers will take a small sum to track down for you). Jump at the right time and you might event get a good deal -- my holiday snaps from 5 years ago are pretty much worthless now, 50 years from now and snapshot of the 2010s might be rather useful for things, similar to how my great grandfather doing the same thing in Africa/middle east during world war 2 now being more interesting than they were in 1949 https://gbatemp.net/threads/things-you-recently-bought-or-got.347639/page-406#post-7166734 )

Freedom of information is a different concept entirely. Depending upon where you are in the world it varies as to whether it is just governments or governments and corporations/businesses but that generally refers to laws that see you able to make a request for information that might be hidden, or just not easily accessible by normal means about events, held about you or your dependents.

First time hearing you can copyright archival footage of actual events. :unsure:
Where did you get the impression it was not subject to copyright?

The facts of the event might not be copyrightable in the same way a complete work of fiction might be (it is one of the lesser considered reasons in the "any resemblance to actual people, living or dead, and real events is purely coincidental") but footage (archival is not a term of law/copyright) of said same still has the same protections as anything else. As noted above then in places like the US the government might not own any copyright to works produced by federal employees made during the normal course of their work, however if it was a random journalist that caught the event on their camera because he happened to be there that day then that does not apply.
 

Guacaholey

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The fact that archival footage is subject to licensing absolutely blows my mind. Shouldn't it be more logical to have that stuff be openly available to all ?
Imagine copyrighting footage of a war

we live in a society
This is the problem with copyright/IP laws. They don't just protect modern works, but also photos and videos of public events that should be available to all.
 

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It is generally a concept called "work for hire", though can be bound up in employment contracts.
In the basic sense the person that does the thing that meets the creative threshold gets the copyright. In doing so they get the exclusive right to produce copies of that work (give or take the far use things of education, criticism/review, satire and whatnot) for the length of the copyright (again we are shortly to see the works from 1926 meet this length in the US). It is however a right you can sell/lease/rent/... -- taking a photo is easy, developing it/replicating it 900 times, shipping it around the world, dealing with court cases when people take liberties with it... that is a pain to do. You might sell that right for a lump sump, or smaller cut, or any other number of contractual arrangements you can do with normal items you own.
Equally individuals lack the ability to do things dozens grouping together might have then you get work for hire lest you have to determine a split and keep track of them (and their myriad descendants).
This need not be a big film or stage production and can instead take the form of a news organisation that says for a salary then we will pay your travel, room and board and provide a shiny camera if you go take pictures, we however will own said pictures.

Rich people (see sonny bono copyright extension if you want to see the last one in the US) have lobbied for the extension of said copyright on multiple occasions (if you want to go back to statute of queen anne then original length was not anywhere near what it is today and was more in line with patents). However the principle of work for hire is a sound one from where I sit, one allowed by general ideas of ownership or items and whatnot.
They don't however generally say I want to own this and magic up rights out of thin air -- they have to find the owners of said things and come to an arrangement with them. This might be fairly easily accomplished for said "archival" type deals; news is an expensive hobby, as were cameras until about 20 years ago, which meant most of the good stuff was made by corporations and the general nature of corporations (they grow until they become top heavy and then get bought out with the cruft let go) means the ownership of things tends to be fairly clear cut and easy to track down ("this company bought this company/their assets which was then bought by this company" all being public records and such that any number of accountants and lawyers will take a small sum to track down for you). Jump at the right time and you might event get a good deal -- my holiday snaps from 5 years ago are pretty much worthless now, 50 years from now and snapshot of the 2010s might be rather useful for things, similar to how my great grandfather doing the same thing in Africa/middle east during world war 2 now being more interesting than they were in 1949 https://gbatemp.net/threads/things-you-recently-bought-or-got.347639/page-406#post-7166734 )

Freedom of information is a different concept entirely. Depending upon where you are in the world it varies as to whether it is just governments or governments and corporations/businesses but that generally refers to laws that see you able to make a request for information that might be hidden, or just not easily accessible by normal means about events, held about you or your dependents.


Where did you get the impression it was not subject to copyright?

The facts of the event might not be copyrightable in the same way a complete work of fiction might be (it is one of the lesser considered reasons in the "any resemblance to actual people, living or dead, and real events is purely coincidental") but footage (archival is not a term of law/copyright) of said same still has the same protections as anything else. As noted above then in places like the US the government might not own any copyright to works produced by federal employees made during the normal course of their work, however if it was a random journalist that caught the event on their camera because he happened to be there that day then that does not apply.
Wow someone smoking the whacky backy or what.

Confident during the cold war we did not have all these copyright laws, noted that most of the filmers back then were freelance or even say artists never made it big untill they died and someone then buys it out.

The fact that someone can claim ownership over content they did not create and then charge others for its useage is wrong.

It should remain free for public education, the people that own the licence are not the creator of the content, so why should they get away with profiting off others work.

Take for example while we are on the topic of historical information, my incestory, it is ran by a group of individuals that somehow managed to bribe government's into allowing them access and ownership of everyones family history and charge you a fee to look at your family tree history.

Like these history archive footage, regardless if it is digital and like your family tree, it is free information that no one should be allowed to claim ownership of when it is not their work.

Just greedy rich people making loop holes to profit, now I would understand if it was music rights, but even then, does any of its money get paid to the family of deceased artists?

Take mgs 5, david bowe, when will that day come when the stuido that published the song in the games intro decide, i know, we need to make more money off this track "the man who sold the world" and lets revoke licensing rights, but ohh shit they already paid for it.

I know lets now claim because it is digital we can now claim it has an expiration date and unless they pay up more money, legally they have to pull the game.

This is exactly why the son of david bowie ensured he kept the legal rights to his fathers music his alter ego starman, as shortly after his death they wanted to buy out all rights to his music and history and turn it into a film.

And rightfully he declined and fought to keep his father's music to him and not to release it to greedy twats wanting to own it all and profit.

Its daft because the families dont get a penny off tue royalties or profit made.
 

FAST6191

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Wow someone smoking the whacky backy or what.

Confident during the cold war we did not have all these copyright laws, noted that most of the filmers back then were freelance or even say artists never made it big untill they died and someone then buys it out.

The fact that someone can claim ownership over content they did not create and then charge others for its useage is wrong.

It should remain free for public education, the people that own the licence are not the creator of the content, so why should they get away with profiting off others work.

Take for example while we are on the topic of historical information, my incestory, it is ran by a group of individuals that somehow managed to bribe government's into allowing them access and ownership of everyones family history and charge you a fee to look at your family tree history.

Like these history archive footage, regardless if it is digital and like your family tree, it is free information that no one should be allowed to claim ownership of when it is not their work.

Just greedy rich people making loop holes to profit, now I would understand if it was music rights, but even then, does any of its money get paid to the family of deceased artists?

Take mgs 5, david bowe, when will that day come when the stuido that published the song in the games intro decide, i know, we need to make more money off this track "the man who sold the world" and lets revoke licensing rights, but ohh shit they already paid for it.

I know lets now claim because it is digital we can now claim it has an expiration date and unless they pay up more money, legally they have to pull the game.

This is exactly why the son of david bowie ensured he kept the legal rights to his fathers music his alter ego starman, as shortly after his death they wanted to buy out all rights to his music and history and turn it into a film.

And rightfully he declined and fought to keep his father's music to him and not to release it to greedy twats wanting to own it all and profit.

Its daft because the families dont get a penny off tue royalties or profit made.
During the cold war the DMCA *spits* did not exist but the basic principles of everything else remains unchanged really, and even as awful as the DMCA is it is mostly clarification for the computery world we find ourselves in.

I am still nowhere near someone that did not make something being able to charge for it is wrong.
A copyrighted work is a good like any other. You can lend it, lease it, rent it out, do some kind of reciprocal barter...
If at some point someone decided something was better off sold for a lump sum while the work continues on being a copyrighted work a bit like the time I sold my old car as it was not being used then so it goes. Money now or smaller income stream, and aggravations associated with collecting it, is a tradeoff people make all the time, indeed if you want to consider credit/debt as this then arguably the basis of the financial system as a whole.
If you preclude that you pretty much ensure only songs (or books, or films, or games) someone wrote themselves, performed themselves (possibly on instruments out of patent or that they themselves own the patent to), recorded/mixed themselves... which is ridiculous as nothing ever gets done if you go for that. By allowing collaborations, assigning of copyrights, work for hire and more besides we get things far more than any one man can do.
It is not a magical new right that was cooked up. It is baked into the very idea of ownership of goods.

Your ancestry lookup example. It is basically the phone book problem.
Lists of numbers are tricky to copyright. That someone took the time to collate all the numbers to areas, and possibly names, format the text to sit on a page (a tedious job if ever you have done it)... means they can sell that result if they so desire.
You would be free to go to local cities (or churches depending upon where you are -- births, marriages, deaths being their domain a lot of the time), consult their nice paper records from the 1800s, decipher things (many things were written in older languages, and in handwriting that makes the average doctor look like a typewriter), rinse and repeat for as far back up the family tree as records exist for.
However it seems this company decided to do the grunt work of digitising records, collating that into a database and is now selling access to that work. Because a computer does it for a lot more people and far more efficiently than a genealogist or other records specialist does not change the fundamental of it being a service you are paying for rather than rights to data itself. Indeed you would be free to digitise all the records yourself and create a competing service if you wanted to -- they don't have the rights to the data underpinning it as much as their database built from it.

"Free for public education"
Education is usually an exception to copyright concerns. This however is also not education as much as fictional entertainment. Unless you are further arguing that all videos of things of historical significance (if ever a nightmare term to have in a legal test), or for a drastic shortening of copyright lengths maybe in these specific cases (personally I would be quite content to go back to statute of queen anne lengths, or least just pre various extension lengths in which case works from the 1960s would be coming up into the public domain).

"lets revoke licensing rights"
This would be a matter of contract law rather than copyright, and arguably only applies to the creation of new works (which these downloadable games tend to function as -- if Steam or whatever wanted they could drop the money for effectively a run of the game and sell that "stock" onwards). Trivially solved really by allowing resale of goods, which theoretically should already be the case (right of first sale if you want a term to search for there).

"because the families dont get a penny off tue royalties or profit made"
If I am to take your logic then the families in all likelihood did not create/contribute to the work either. If I am continuing to follow that logic then why do they get to benefit any more than the neighbours of the person or some random on the street?
I am not sure where the rest of the David Bowie thing comes in though. So some chancers decided after he is dead that they would try to buy up the rights because they think they can make a profit in the future, or allow them to dodge issues later. OK. We could also talk about how said cold war (and earlier) artists were largely between a rock and a hard place when it came to recording contracts (don't work for the majors, no radio will play no, no concert hall will book you, they knew this so offered a fairly small cut), publishers for books much the same (up until the whole desktop publishing revolution there really, maybe with a small reprieve for vanity presses a bit before then)... fun stuff there but still does not fundamentally change the idea of work for hire being a possibility, and copyrights to a works themselves being able to be bought and sold like items.
 

D34DL1N3R

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Amusing, at best, that people get upset about this. If you already bought them digitally you can still download them. And those that didn't? Yeah, the majority of you all didn't give a rats ass about buying them until you read this announcement. Now suddenly these games are a huge deal to you. Not to mention even if delisted and not previously purchased, they are easy enough to get through other methods. Non issue. Nothing to see here.
 

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