Peace...

[Flea]

and again....no word about the vietnam...
sure, your gouvernment doesn´t care. they never did. And that´s because everyone who is against this war is so helpless, sad and well lots are very upset.
So come on, give me your information!
The point is: you have none! You can´t take a view out of the edge of your united states politics!
Vietnam and Korea were war crimes commited by the USA...and yet we can´t do anything against it, because we are all reliant on the economy of america. sad but true...

It´s hard for me to keep not getting personally because your opinion vanguarde is, if people in higher ranks think the same way like you, very very dangerous.
In my eyes, you are more than just blinded by american propaganda and sadly you are not the only one.
Your callculation is:

War
+War
+War
+War
=Peace

I don´t know what to say, if everyone had your opinion, I would run to the next bunker and wait for the nuclear missles....

Damn....you really make me sick

 

[Flea]

and just one thing to robertos post...
the hole letter mrs. osborne wrote here is very very long...and it contains a lot of retorical stylistic devices...but it also contains just ONE real argument called: the politicians are academics, they have agents to gather intelligence and they are very expierienced...well true, but this is NOT ENOUGH to decide about other countrys destiniy, by the way I wouldn´t elect hitler, just because he has men around him informing him about terrorism acts...

in good english:
Mrs Osborne is a good writer but she has no knowledge about politics and is non-informed about the situation in the rest of the world.

 

[dpm14]

If one more anti-war person says we are media brainwashed I shall go crazy. I am sure the people in Germany and France listen to their media brainwashing them that we are being brainwashed. Just because I agree with an idea doesn't mean I do not think for myself.

A lesson to the wise: Ad Hominem attacks are a logical fallacy and do nothing to further the issues at hand. You should give actual rebuttals to arguments and not say, "That's just what the media tells you." You can say the media is wrong, but without proof, you do not have a valid argument.

Vietnam and Korea were both actions approved by the U.N. There is no way there are any war crimes. Some soldiers did commit atrocities, and one that I remember was tried, sentenced to murder, dishonorably discharged and sent to jail. The world supported those wars. Opposition was most present in America itself when the wars drug on longer than they should have. Because of public opinion, we had to back ourselves out and this backing out looks bad because it appears we lost. You call us ignorant, but I think you need to do a simple google search for a Vietnam War timeline. If it is good, you can see actual factual evidence and be able to argue properly.

(Edit for spelling errors...)

 

[Flea]

Our media is not brainwashing and never was. We see both sides. The american AND the iraqi propaganda! furthermore I never said, that every american is brainwashed by its media! This was just the response to what vilguarde wrote.
And it´s not me who needs to find arguements against war, it´s the american president who has to find arguements FOR the war. And: he really had none, all he could relie an was that resolution 1441 about disarming the iraq. And this time the war is not legitimated by the UN. And your response to vietnam and korea is very, very cheap. Just because it was approved by the U.N., doesn´t make this war right. The american soldiers fought in an inhuman way and they had NO CHANCE TO WIN THAT WAR! I was glad, they had to back off, and the greatest opposition to the war was definitly not in the U.S. themselves! European and Russian people went in thousands on the streets to protest against this war. And it doesn´t look like that, it is fact that america lost the vietnam war! They killed lots of people but they never had a chance to break the vietnamese resistance.
And still one thing to say:
Searching for arguements? Look back and see what I wrote, however this last posts were just a response to vinguarde. In europe, we have the opportunity to compare your media with ours and it is fact, that the quality of german newspapers is much higher and in no way compareable to those in the united states.
What you will say is, that this again is not a "valid arguement" but do you know just anything about foreign newspapers, foreign tv broadcast, foreign radio broadcast? Are you even able to make yourself an opinion of those? do you speak at least ONE foreign language? Well I speak 3 languages and I am informed about media from france, germany and the u.s. So don´t YOU tell me how to discuss problems properly....

 

[dpm14]

Our media is not brainwashing and never was. We see both sides. The american AND the iraqi propaganda! furthermore I never said, that every american is brainwashed by its media! This was just the response to what vilguarde wrote.
And it´s not me who needs to find arguements against war, it´s the american president who has to find arguements FOR the war. And: he really had none, all he could relie an was that resolution 1441 about disarming the iraq. And this time the war is not legitimated by the UN. And your response to vietnam and korea is very, very cheap. Just because it was approved by the U.N., doesn´t make this war right. The american soldiers fought in an inhuman way and they had NO CHANCE TO WIN THAT WAR! I was glad, they had to back off, and the greatest opposition to the war was definitly not in the U.S. themselves! European and Russian people went in thousands on the streets to protest against this war. And it doesn´t look like that, it is fact that america lost the vietnam war! They killed lots of people but they never had a chance to break the vietnamese resistance.
And still one thing to say:
Searching for arguements? Look back and see what I wrote, however this last posts were just a response to vinguarde. In europe, we have the opportunity to compare your media with ours and it is fact, that the quality of german newspapers is much higher and in no way compareable to those in the united states.
What you will say is, that this again is not a "valid arguement" but do you know just anything about foreign newspapers, foreign tv broadcast, foreign radio broadcast? Are you even able to make yourself an opinion of those? do you speak at least ONE foreign language? Well I speak 3 languages and I am informed about media from france, germany and the u.s. So don´t YOU tell me how to discuss problems properly....

Well, I am happy you get Iraqi television. Unfortunately, I do not, but I can rely on the international channel and the internet to give me any view point I could ever want.

And you do need to find arguements because we have them. What do you have against enforcing the 16 U.N. resolutions that Saddam has evaded?

But from what I was reading, all it seemed to take for a war to be legitimate was U.N. approval. As I said before, the only reason we lost was we backed out. We were kicking ass until about halfway through. Once people started complaining, we were forced to back off because the soldiers who were supposed to fight the war were all moving to Canada.

And your media may be quality in Germany, but lets look at france:
"Under French law it is a criminal offence to insult the president, carrying a fine of up to 45,000 euros (£30,000)." In the U.S. we have freedom of the press and no such fine exists to stifle reporting. I can see foreign TV programs and I can hear foreign radio online. You must remember, we are farther away and we don't have countries the size of some of our states that close to one another. I can, however, still make a pretty decent opinion on what I hear and it's basically just the other end of the brainwashing spectrum. I only speak English and Spanish, but I can read Italian, try to read portugeese, and also take a hack at German. So I guess I do maybe 2.5 languages. Anything else I can use a translator online and immediately understand it. Just because I don't speak it doesn't mean I cannot still read it. I do have some respect for the German media, but absolutely none for the French.

 

[Octavious]

another thing about france, not trying to be mean...
we rename our stuff ( like ) freedom fries, nothing mean there aginst france or maybe like my town's coffe place makes "freedom vannilla" instead of french vannilla, in a quiet and peaceful way of showing oppostion....
then they name american cheese in france to idiot cheese.. hmm, i sence some meanness shining through

edit

i was reading through old pages, i forgot to read 3 earlier, to better educate my opinon here but i am behind what vanguarde says. not all americans want war but most can realize that if diplomacy has failed for 12 years, war is all that will work. and i am not slamming ne1 here but why are you all offended by a war with a regime that is so evil? this war is on them, not the people. although i was mad and tired, my other posts have a lot of true info in them reguardig this. Well, atleast no one so far is being to awful stupid. everyone is providing good reasons for the most. I wont point fingers.....

 

[dpm14]

i was reading through old pages, i forgot to read 3 earlier, to better educate my opinon here but i am behind what vanguarde says. not all americans want war but most can realize that if diplomacy has failed for 12 years, war is all that will work. and i am not slamming ne1 here but why are you all offended by a war with a regime that is so evil? this war is on them, not the people. although i was mad and tired, my other posts have a lot of true info in them reguardig this. Well, atleast no one so far is being to awful stupid. everyone is providing good reasons for the most. I wont point fingers.....

This statement carries a great load of truth. I figured I'd quote it so people could read it again.

 

[sr819]

I am sure the people in Germany and France listen to their media brainwashing them that we are being brainwashed.

Well, not really.

But i think we have a bad reputation in England or USA. Medias from this country are brainwashing machines. (In England, it s terrible !) But here, we know the true face of America, the face that is Against any kind of war. We know that approximatly 75% of people from USA, England, Françe, Germany etc... Are Totally against war.

The thing we d'ont understand, is why ENG/USA doesn't listen the ONU representatives. It is not a theatre play, England and USA violated meany internationals treatys.

We can see all of our journalists (I think it s the same everywhere) very exiteed by war .It is just a show in TV, in the middle of commercials. ("All lies lead to the truth")

War is not a show. The American citizens never lived war, It is always "out there" for them. The bad public image you have, all over the world, will become more maked. I mean, we all want peace, but if anyone drop his gun first, we will live for another century (Millenium) of terror, of war.

PS : I hope England and USA will not see us like representatives of the "axe of evil" but like ally. We (France/Germany) where not totally opposed to USA/England (In the beggining) and we are not supported any dictatures of any kind, we where, and we are, against a war, there is many possibilities to change things. (War never solved anything.)

The point is, we d'ont want to live another war, another 11 september 2001. I'm sure we will all agree with that.

 

[dpm14]

Maybe England's people don't support the war, but as of the last poll 76% of Americans support Bush's actions. This is a very high approval rating, especially for a time like this.

War has never solved anything? You have to be kidding me... What peaceful means stopped Hitler? Appeasement? Allowing him to have weapons he wasn't supposed to have? After this allowing him to take over countries he wasn't supposed to have?

12 years is plenty of time to comply with U.N. sanctions. We gave Saddam his second and third chances. After the Gulf War, he was not allowed to have certain weapons and must accept U.N. inspections. From 1996-2001 no such inspections occurred because they were cast out of the country. He only reallowed them because he realized America wasn't going to sit around letting "terrorists" have their happy day. Saddam wants the U.N. on his side, and just like Hitler had the League of Nations, Saddam has the U.N.

As far as violating treaties, I am sure we have violated quite a few, but those things never really last anyway. If you ever study history you will see countries on opposing sides depending on who is in power or how well it benefits them economically. (Such as the current regime benefits France and Russia whereas an actual democratic regime will benefit the U.S.)

 

[Tempest Stormwin]

All right, guys. Enough is enough, on both sides. It's degenerated to mudslinging, with both sides being too stubborn to admit they're possibly wrong.

I have yet to see ANYONE actually actually consider that, or anyone else's points. It's therefore easy to conclude that this thread will continue along these lines for ages, like a pair of rams with locked horns.

I'll just end it now. Let's drop the whole topic.

If you have a problem with this -- let me know. I'll discuss it with you.

Let there be peace unto the world, and let it come soon. Salaam.

-Tempest out.-