The US Supreme Court has just abolished Affirmative Action in regards to college/university admissions. Do you believe this is right or wrong?

[Xzi]

Objective means that you are literally going off of anecdotal and historic experiences, that don't really have much relevance to current life in 2023.

C'mon man, you can't pretend things that happened to someone's grandma had no effect on their overall family. Of course we'd prefer if this stuff happened so long ago that it's become no longer relevant, but that's not reality. It was only a few years ago confederate symbols started being removed from state flags, and it was just last week that police were standing in solidarity with people waving swastika flags.

If affirmative action wasn't necessary, it never would've been established. I'll have to pretend to be shocked when college admissions soon becomes the most in-demand career for redhats.

 

[Valwinz]

C'mon man, you can't pretend things that happened to someone's grandma had no effect on their overall family. Of course we'd prefer if this stuff happened so long ago that it's become no longer relevant, but that's not reality. It was only a few years ago confederate symbols started being removed from state flags, and it was just last week that police were standing in solidarity with people waving swastika flags.

If affirmative action wasn't necessary, it never would've been established. I'll have to pretend to be shocked when college admissions soon becomes the most in-demand career for redhats.

is 2023 Xzi racism has not place in society not sure why you are angry a racist thing like affirmative actions is no more

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

C'mon man, you can't pretend things that happened to someone's grandma had no effect on their overall family. Of course we'd prefer if this stuff happened so long ago that it's become no longer relevant, but that's not reality. It was only a few years ago confederate symbols started being removed from state flags, and it was just last week that police were standing in solidarity with people waving swastika flags.

If affirmative action wasn't necessary, it never would've been established. I'll have to pretend to be shocked when college admissions soon becomes the most in-demand career for redhats.

Nothing that happened to my grandmother had any impact on my life. Never met any of them, so I am in the same boat as anyone else who never got anything from Grandma. No advantages, no wealth inherited. Nothing. Still just anecdotal evidence, but just saying. Not everyone with a White granny is well-off. And, not one single person alive today has ever been a slave. Not one. Unless they are more than 160 years old, in which case, they deserve everything we can give them. I'll pay out of my own pocket for that. And I had nothing to do with it. Which is a point for another topic...

Affirmative Action was never necessary. It was a show. For colleges to pretend that they had diversity. And it was a cop-out for students who definitely didn't qualify to have the standards lowered for them to attend, which I find more insulting than anything else.

Merit, merit, merit. Skin color and legacy means nothing. It never has, which I am sure you would agree with. So, if being white should never have given white people an advantage, why should being black give black folks an advantage?

I fully agree that the Confederate Flag has no place of honor in any part of American history. Studying its history, I have educated countless of my redneck bumpkin ass friends when they tried to tell me it was pride and not hate. It was MADE to be a banner of White Supremacy, and no decent person would fly it. I would piss on any Confederate Flag I saw.

Please address my question about generational wealth. You completely and totally skipped that part.

 

[Xzi]

Affirmative Action was never necessary. It was a show. For colleges to pretend that they had diversity.

It demonstrably did lead to more diversity, especially in Southern colleges. The reduction in that diversity as a result of this ruling will not be small enough to ignore.

Skin color and legacy means nothing.

I mean you can say that, but the legacy program is still in place. Capital now becomes far more important than merit in being accepted to college.

So, if being white should never have given white people an advantage, why should being black give black folks an advantage?

Being given the same opportunities as white people is not an advantage.

Please address my question about generational wealth. You completely and totally skipped that part.

Because it's irrelevant to a discussion about equality under the law. I have no interest in telling people how to spend their money or how to raise their kids. My interest is in keeping two-faced conservatives pushing faux-impartiality from fucking up the education system entirely. They're the same ones currently banning books from school libraries, and allowing these nutjobs into admissions is going to cause even more problems.

 

[Deleted member 194275]

Yes USA, keep getting more and more divided, just keep pushing, put people minorities under the rug. Something tells me that you will be "bringing democracy" inside your own borders very very soon. It will not be pretty.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

It demonstrably did lead to more diversity, especially in Southern colleges. The reduction in that diversity as a result of this ruling will not be small enough to ignore.


I mean you can say that, but the legacy program is still in place. Capital now becomes far more important than merit in being accepted to college.


Being given the same opportunities as white people is not an advantage.


Because it's irrelevant to a discussion about equality under the law. I have no interest in telling people how to spend their money or how to raise their kids. My interest is in keeping two-faced conservatives pushing faux-impartiality from fucking up the education system entirely. They're the same ones currently banning books from school libraries, and allowing these nutjobs into admissions is going to cause even more problems.

How do we break the legacy?

By more people from "more diverse" backgrounds having more capital and generational wealth, to even the playing field.

How do we address generational wealth? By addressing the unwed/single parent homes. And this has nothing to do with the law. You can have as many kids as you want. You can knock up every chick you want and leave their kids on welfare because you won't take care of them. Who can fix that? Whose fault is that?

Let's address the REAL problem, if you want to suggest that white people are only where they are at because of legacy and because they were sons of slave owners with more generational wealth.


I like and respect you, but you keep refusing to address the specific issue I am raising. This isn't like you.

Let's talk generational wealth, and the unwed birth rate, instead of insulting conservatives and moving the goalpost.

 

[Xzi]

How do we break the legacy?

By more people from "more diverse" backgrounds having more capital and generational wealth, to even the playing field.

I'm not sure you know how legacy admissions work...if your parents went to a prestigious college and they have the money to send you to the same one, you automatically get accepted. There's no mechanism by which legacy admissions can magically become more diverse over time, and merit is a non-factor. Nepo babies receiving priority is not an even playing field.

Let's talk generational wealth, and the unwed birth rate, instead of insulting conservatives and moving the goalpost.

It's not hard to connect the dots between the vast generational wealth stolen from countless African-American families and the current state of things wherein so many continue to live in ghettos and projects. Profits gained from slave labor went on to found entire corporations, while the richest black community in America's history was the site of one of our bloodiest massacres.

As long as the uneducated keep trying to take over our education system, I won't stop ranting about it. It's one objective American conservatives wholly share with the Taliban.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

I'm not sure you know how legacy admissions work...if your parents went to a prestigious college and they have the money to send you to the same one, you automatically get accepted. There's no mechanism by which legacy admissions can magically become more diverse over time, and merit is a non-factor. Nepo babies receiving priority is not an even playing field.


It's not hard to connect the dots between the vast generational wealth stolen from countless African-American families and the current state of things wherein so many continue to live in ghettos and projects. Profits gained from slave labor went on to found entire corporations, while the richest black community in America's history was the site of one of our bloodiest massacres.

As long as the uneducated keep trying to take over our education system, I won't stop ranting about it. It's one objective American conservatives wholly share with the Taliban.

Yeah, we were talking about different "legacy". I was talking financial, and you were referring to Ivy League schools. Super important to clarify distinctions that like. Otherwise, we're not arguing the same topic.

You have not addressed my question. I respectfully request that you discuss the unwed birth rate with me, since you keep talking about a wealth gap, and generational advantages. This is tied to the unwed birth rate. I want you to actually provide your solution to that, and accept that it is the major contributing factor when it comes to why black Americans do not have generational wealth in America. Not because of mean, bad wypipo, but because black men won't wrap it up. Or actually stick around and take care of their bastards.

I do not believe this a problem that the government is responsible for, and we can't blame white folks for black men nutting in black women and then abandoning their seed.

I have asked three times so far. Please engage.

 

[Xzi]

You have not addressed my question. I respectfully request that you discuss the unwed birth rate with me

I respectfully decline a second time, the discussion isn't about personal responsibility, which plenty of people of all races AND classes have problems with, I can assure you.

I do not believe this a problem that the government is responsible for

Then you're simply incorrect. The US government and law enforcement agencies inflicted oppression and abuse upon one very specific group of people for entire generations. Whether it's uncomfortable for you to acknowledge it or not, that puts those institutions in debt to those generations and their descendants. Rather than pay them back in any meaningful way, however, they've more often than not experienced the same ol' prejudices and intolerance. Make absolutely no mistake: Donald Trump won election using the Southern Strategy, and black people somehow always share in the fallout from the resurgence of hate even if it's primarily directed at South American/Mexican migrants, for example.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

I respectfully decline a second time, the discussion isn't about personal responsibility, which plenty of people of all races AND classes have problems with, I can assure you.


Then you're simply incorrect. The US government and law enforcement agencies inflicted oppression and abuse upon one very specific group of people for entire generations. Whether it's uncomfortable for you to acknowledge it or not, that puts those institutions in debt to those generations and their descendants. Rather than pay them back in any meaningful way, however, they've more often than not experienced the same ol' prejudices and intolerance. Make absolutely no mistake: Donald Trump won election using the Southern Strategy, and black people somehow always share in the fallout from the resurgence of hate even if it's primarily directed at South American/Mexican migrants, for example.

No discomfort for me to accept anything. The only discomfort I am seeing is how you refuse to lay any accountability for literally ANYTHING, as in ANYTHING AT ALL at the feet of black people, themselves. White guilt is something I find disgusting, since you owe nothing to anyone alive today, and no one has to right to demand anything from you for the sins of "our fathers".

Mine were Irish and Polish (Slovotsky) and none of them owned slaves. I don't owe a goddamned thing to anyone on this planet, and I won't feel bad for things I never did and never benefited from.

I want a fair playing field for everyone, and no one alive deserves reparations of any sort. Who is going to pay them?

I ask you, sir, how much YOU are willing to fork out of YOUR pocket right now, because you believe your own position in life as a self-professed white man has benefited off of the backs of slavery, to pay people YOU never wronged for things YOU never did.

What is the dollar amount that you are willing to give for crimes you never committed?

I am an Irish Jew. Not by faith but by birth. Tell me what debt I owe to black people.

 

[titan_tim]

Sorry, I'm not American, so I just have to check something on this ruling.

Was this ruling repealing a rule where universities had to accept people based on race distribution? That would make sense to repeal, as the government shouldn't be able to force that on any institution.

Or was this preventing universities from making their own choices on who are accepted? Because that would be government overreach.

That being said, I think that if universities REALLY want to help people of color (Which is desperately needed in the US), they're starting far too late in their lives. Universities have so much money, they should be able to help fund elementary and high schools in impoverished areas that have been written-off by the government. Universities often have satellite schools in other countries where they work together to prepare students for exchange programs, it could be similar to that.

Education is the great equalizer in a society, and if the government isn't doing what is needed, then it's a vicious circle of kids being left behind based on multiple factors that could be fixed. Then the upper-echelon will say "Tut-tut, those people from _____ are just terrible". Wash-rinse-repeat over multiple generations.

 

[Xzi]

The only discomfort I am seeing is how you refuse to lay any accountability for literally ANYTHING, as in ANYTHING AT ALL at the feet of black people, themselves.

See I guess I was under the wrong impression, assuming we were discussing the policy of affirmative action and not the airing out of race-based grievances. These are problems created by our government and institutions, they can only be remedied by the same, which is what AA was an attempt to do (albeit a half-assed one). If someone wants to propose and implement a better solution, that needs to be done before removing the previous one, otherwise we'll inevitably repeat the same mistakes of our past.

I ask you, sir, how much YOU are willing to fork out of YOUR pocket right now, because you believe your own position in life as a self-professed white man has benefited off of the backs of slavery, to pay people YOU never wronged for things YOU never did.

What is the dollar amount that you are willing to give for crimes you never committed?

I am an Irish Jew. Not by faith but by birth. Tell me what debt I owe to black people.

Did you really believe I was proposing knocking on every white person's door and demanding $3.50 to go toward paying reparations? Nah dawg, just take it out of corporate welfare or a small percentage of the overbloated military budget. Like I said, it's institutions, corporations, and the government that owe them a debt, far more than any individual possibly could.

Sorry, I'm not American, so I just have to check something on this ruling.

Was this ruling repealing a rule where universities had to accept people based on race distribution? That would make sense to repeal, as the government shouldn't be able to force that on any institution.

Universities were required to accept a certain quota of applicants of all races/ethnicities, yes. It was put in place in response to the fact that colleges even in majority-black states and communities were accepting 95%+ white students, and I'm sure states like Alabama are eager to get back to that practice now.

 

[Hanafuda]

It was the correct decision but it will be blatantly ignored. Universities will just come up with some euphemistic words to mask what they're doing and the train will keep on rolling.

 

[Xzi]

It was the correct decision but it will be blatantly ignored. Universities will just come up with some euphemistic words to mask what they're doing and the train will keep on rolling.

Let's hope so, we've already got too many inept nepo babies in Congress as things stand now. You'd think it couldn't possibly get any worse following Donald Trump, but a lot people thought that about GWB too.

This country will never be a meritocracy in my lifetime, but at the very least I'd prefer it not turn into a total Idiocracy before I kick the bucket.

 

[Foxi4]

They didn't abolish affirmative action, it's still very much in place for the only people SCOTUS considers a protected class: the rich. Just means underachieving legacies get more available spots over high school kids who actually put in the work. Might as well skip a few steps and have print-out Ivy League degrees you can buy online for a few hundred thousand each.

Legacy rules apply equally across all races and are not discriminatory - if you have a legacy in the school, you have the tiniest fraction of better odds to succeed. This is perfectly understandable as those schools are private entities, they can do whatever they want in regards to applications as long as they’re not violating anti-discrimination laws in the process.

In any case, this is a good decision. Nobody should be judged by the colour of their skin. We wouldn’t accept this kind of discrimination in hiring, we shouldn’t accept it in education. Positive discrimination is still discrimination - whenever you give someone a leg up based on race, somebody else who’s skin is slightly different suffers. The playing field should be equal.

 

[Xzi]

Legacy rules apply equally across all races and are not discriminatory - if you have a legacy in the school, you have the tiniest fraction of better odds to succeed. This is perfectly understandable as those schools are private entities, they can do whatever they want in regards to applications as long as they’re not violating anti-discrimination laws in the process.

Of course, that's always been the favored loophole of racists in education for as long as anti-discrimination laws have existed: "how could we have possibly known legacy students who don't require loans would be mostly white?" 70% are, by the way, not that giving rich kids from Saudi Arabia preference is any better a policy.

The playing field should be equal.

Correct, and a failure to acknowledge just how long and how viscerally the playing field was unequal throughout our history means it can never truly become equal for certain groups. Boomers pulling up the ladder behind them again, but this time it's the Uncle Ruckus edition. Clarence Thomas isn't worth half as much as a spec of dirt on Thurgood Marshall's coffin.

 

[Foxi4]

Of course, that's always been the favored loophole of racists in education for as long as anti-discrimination laws have existed: "how could we have possibly known legacy students who don't require loans would be mostly white?" 70% are, by the way.

So what? Students of any race can build their own legacy, regardless of colour. Assuming you’re correct and 70% of legacy applicants are white, this is consistent with demographics, since 75% of people in the U.S. are white. In fact, they’re still disadvantaged by 5%. Moreover, legacy applicants account for *up to* 15% of all applicants - the remaining 85% are newcomers *building their legacy* with the school. None of that is “racist”, it’s statistical happenstance.

Correct, and a failure to acknowledge just how long and how viscerally the playing field was unequal throughout our history means it can never truly become equal for certain groups. Boomers pulling up the ladder behind them again, but this time it's the Uncle Ruckus edition. Clarence Thomas isn't worth half as much as a spec of dirt on Thurgood Marshall's coffin.

Judging people based on race is unfair discrimination. This is not debatable. A black son of a doctor *already* has better means than a white kid from a trailer park. If anyone needs assistance in college and university admissions, it’s people who can’t afford to apply based on their life circumstances, not people who are a specific colour.

 

[Xzi]

So what?

So statistically, 70% of legacy students being white overall equates to a whole lot of individual colleges seeing 100% white legacy students, or damn near it. White students being the only ones to receive automatic admissions regardless of their merit doesn't sound like a very equal playing field to me.

If anyone needs assistance in college and university admissions, it’s people who can’t afford to apply based on their life circumstances, not people who are a specific colour.

On that we can agree, which is why the legacy program should also be abolished, as it creates a financial incentive for colleges, especially prestigious ones, to discriminate. It is in itself a form of affirmative action, and it won't surprise me if that argument is presented in a court case in the near future. Would be interesting to see if SCOTUS might lay bare their hypocrisy in that ruling.

 

[Foxi4]

So statistically, 70% of legacy students being white overall equates to a whole lot of individual colleges seeing 100% white legacy students, or damn near it. White students being the only ones to receive automatic admissions regardless of their merit doesn't sound like a very equal playing field to me.

If that’s what their past student body looks like, that’s what their legacy applicants are. This will change in time and doesn’t justify blatantly racist policy.

On that we can agree, which is why the legacy program should also be abolished, as it creates a financial incentive for colleges, especially prestigious ones, to discriminate. It is in itself a form of affirmative action, and it won't surprise me if that argument is presented in a court case in the near future. Would be interesting to see if SCOTUS might lay bare their hypocrisy in that ruling.

It’s none of your business if a private entity has a preference towards its existing customer base. Costco doesn’t discriminate against people who don’t have a Costco card, they simply have a loyalty program that incentivises shopping there as opposed to anywhere else if you’re a member. Students who complete their schooling at a given school are incentivised to send their children to the same school - this is a revenue-based decision, not a race-based one. Running a school costs money. Legacy applicant preference does not violate anti-discrimination laws because it’s not based on any innate (i.e natural, inborn) quality of the applicant.

 

[Xzi]

If that’s what their past student body looks like, that’s what their legacy applicants are. This will change in time and doesn’t justify blatantly racist policy.

You can't repeat an experiment you've already done and expect a different result. Rather you can, but as the saying goes, that would make you insane. I'd say delusional, at the very least.

Costco doesn’t discriminate against people who don’t have a Costco card, they simply have a loyalty program that incentivises shopping there as opposed to anywhere else if you’re a member.

Costco also doesn't have certain locations which provide "VIP" memberships, but exclusively to white people. It's a bad analogy comparing access to higher education to access to bulk mayonnaise, though if the legacy program was only $100 a year then that would go a long way toward toning down its discriminatory aspects.