What sources back up the anti-vaccine movement?

[Dakitten]

I don't even know if the OP question makes sense at this point.

A famous actor died here in my Country after taking the two shots. The cause was covid, and this is expected in a place that had until now more than covid 21 million cases (on that huge universe, even rare cases do happen a lot). So, for uneducated people (that's majority here mind you) this is a valid source.

So my point is that anti-vaxxers do not need a source when they have examples. An example is an example, and people (specially the uneducated, but not only the uneducated) do not care if this happen 1 out 100 times, or 1 out 10 000 times, they just don't want to take the shots, and they will find arguments for that.

Yes, that is the majority of people here, the ignorant masses. Not men like you, men of vision, facts, and refinement! Why, just listening to you misunderstand what a source is truly lets shine the majesty of your intellect! Hail to thee, oh blessed sir who wades in the forums with us simple unwashed peons~

While we're here though, perhaps I can regale you with a tale about a young dog who licked a covid patient, and then they got better! I can't give you a link to any documentation to prove it, but I totes heard it and dog kisses are a potential cure! For the low low price of $x.xx, I can share with you what breed the dog was, in case that might matter for SCIENCE!

 

[videogamefanatic]

Incorrect. You have to get sick to spread it. Vaccinated have a chance to fend it off.

THIIIIIS. It's the one major thing that tends to get missed in the current anti-vax rhetoric. The viral load is only similar for those that develop symptoms of covid. If you get a breakthrough case, but don't develop symptoms, congrats, you fought it off, the viral load was low, and you likely didn't spread it (or if you did, you didn't spread it nearly as much as symptomatic cases)

 

[smf]

THIIIIIS. It's the one major thing that tends to get missed in the current anti-vax rhetoric. The viral load is only similar for those that develop symptoms of covid. If you get a breakthrough case, but don't develop symptoms, congrats, you fought it off, the viral load was low, and you likely didn't spread it (or if you did, you didn't spread it nearly as much as symptomatic cases)

God created covid so that they could spread it.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

The two most important sources for COVID19 vaccine hestiancy are a general mistrust towards the government and the average age of a population.

This explains high vaccination rates in e.g. China and Israel and low rates in e.g. Russia or many African countries.

E.g. I doubt Afghans are eager to get vaccinationed. And why should they? They are very young on average and have other problems. The average age of deaths in western countries are very similar to life expectancy. If an old person dies from a fall or the flu, we just consider it natural. Saying that "millions have died" from COVID19 is technically true but misleading. It is not comparable to war or starvation.

I have received two vaccinations btw.

 

[RAHelllord]

The two most important sources for COVID19 vaccine hestiancy are a general mistrust towards the government and the average age of a population.

This explains high vaccination rates in e.g. China and Israel and low rates in e.g. Russia or many African countries.

E.g. I doubt Afghans are eager to get vaccinationed. And why should they? They are very young on average and have other problems. The average age of deaths in western countries are very similar to life expectancy. If an old person dies from a fall or the flu, we just consider it natural. Saying that "millions have died" from COVID19 is technically true but misleading. It is not comparable to war or starvation.

I have received two vaccinations btw.

Only old people, infants, and average adults with severely compromised immune systems die from the flu, covid-19 has killed perfectly healthy adults as well as those other groups. On top of that, roughly 4.7 million people died from covid-19 in the past 2 years compared to an average of 500k to 1.2m from the flu in the same time frame (compared to averages from previous decades, of course).

Sure famines and war target other groups more directly but comparing the flu to covid-19 is just silly, particularly if you're trying to say that covid-19 is as little of a problem to adults as the common flu.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Only old people, infants, and average adults with severely compromised immune systems die from the flu, covid-19 has killed perfectly healthy adults as well as those other groups. On top of that, roughly 4.7 million people died from covid-19 in the past 2 years compared to an average of 500k to 1.2m from the flu in the same time frame (compared to averages from previous decades, of course).

Sure famines and war target other groups more directly but comparing the flu to covid-19 is just silly, particularly if you're trying to say that covid-19 is as little of a problem to adults as the common flu.

I have seen people on this board and on television making direct comparisons to war. I have not made a direct comparison to the flu. I said "a fall or the flu" as merely two examples. An 80-year old can die of many things, most of which we would call natural.
That said, your statement that the flu does not kill healthy average adults is not true. Look it up. The flu seasons have a large range of deaths each year but most people did not take notes of spikes. Reporting matters. It changes perception.

 

[Xzi]

Reporting matters. It changes perception.

Hard data matters more. The flu isn't even a tenth as deadly as COVID. Not to mention we've had yearly flu vaccines available almost as far back as I can remember, specifically targeted at immuno-compromised and elderly individuals.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Hard data matters more. The flu isn't even a tenth as deadly as COVID. Not to mention we've had yearly flu vaccines available almost as far back as I can remember, specifically targeted at immuno-compromised and elderly individuals.

There is no hard data on this. It is difficult to attribute a death to the flu or COVID19.
Years ago the CDC estimated that the real number of flu deaths is 15 higher than reported.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124217724145913411
The flu numbers are probably underreported due to how normalized flu deaths are in our society, while COVID19 deaths were overreported, especially in the beginning.

New viruses tend to be more deadly in the beginning and mutate to lesser versions as time goes on and immunization increases (whether naturally or through vaccines).

 

[Xzi]

There is no hard data on this.

Yes there is lol, we have decades of flu data which averages to about a 0.01% mortality rate (on the highest end of estimates). Meanwhile, even the most conservative estimates have COVID-19 at about a 1% mortality rate. A hundred times more deadly. Obviously mortality rates for both were higher before vaccines were available.

Up to 100 flu deaths a day (in the US) sounds scary, that is until you remember that COVID-19 was killing up to 3,000 people a day at its peak.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Yes there is lol, we have decades of flu data which averages to about a 0.01% mortality rate (on the highest end of estimates). Meanwhile, even the most conservative estimates have COVID-19 at about a 1% mortality rate. A hundred times more deadly. Obviously mortality rates for both were higher before vaccines were available.

I showed you that the CDC estimates the flu deaths could be 15 times higher than the official numbers. COVID19 kills about 1% of known cases. Unless you test whole cities like in China, you can only guess the actual numbers of cases. I remind you that blood donation samples suggest a signficiant number of Americans (millions if extrapolated) had COVID19 antibodies in December 2019 and January 2020 - long before the first known case.
I also think COVID19 is more deadly than the flu but we simply don´t have hard data. You can laugh about it all you want. Many mutations later the death rates could become comparable though.

 

[Xzi]

I showed you that the CDC estimates the flu deaths could be 15 times higher than the official numbers.

Right, and the CDC actually has the flu at roughly a 0.001% mortality rate, which is why I was taking the more extreme estimates into account by instead assuming a 0.01% mortality rate.

COVID19 kills about 1% of known cases.

Yes, but again, that's on the conservative side. It's closer to a 3% mortality rate in some areas of the world/US.

Unless you test whole cities like in China, you can only guess the actual numbers of cases.

The same is true of the flu, infections for which are vastly under-reported because most people with healthy immune systems have only mild symptoms at worst. Severe cases (those requiring hospitalization) of any given disease are usually plenty enough to base estimates on, and they're also really all that matter from a public health perspective. Naturally, the fewer severe cases there are, the less the general public is gonna worry about it.

 

[RAHelllord]

I showed you that the CDC estimates the flu deaths could be 15 times higher than the official numbers. COVID19 kills about 1% of known cases. Unless you test whole cities like in China, you can only guess the actual numbers of cases. I remind you that blood donation samples suggest a signficiant number of Americans (millions if extrapolated) had COVID19 antibodies in December 2019 and January 2020 - long before the first known case.
I also think COVID19 is more deadly than the flu but we simply don´t have hard data. You can laugh about it all you want. Many mutations later the death rates could become comparable though.

Where did you hear that millions of people had antibodies to covid-19 before covid-19? The virus is called a novel virus specifically because it's a new virus unknown to most of the western worlds immune systems.
Also the article you posted from wsj gives no indication that the actual death toll from the flu is 15 times higher than reported.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

Where did you hear that millions of people had antibodies to covid-19 before covid-19?

Red cross blood donation samples of December 2019 and January 2020 in the US. In 0,5% to 1,5% (or so) of the samples, antibodies were found. Unless American blood doners are more likely to come from or travel to Wuhan, we can assume that there were millions of people with antibodies in the USA at that time.
Or having antibodies can mean anything (which makes testing questionable).

 

[subcon959]

The virus is called a novel virus specifically because it's a new virus

Not to nitpick but it's not a novel virus, it's a novel coronavirus. That little detail is actually a big deal in microbiology.

 

[assassinz]

Incorrect. You have to get sick to spread it. Vaccinated have a chance to fend it off.

That means whomever is not sick with it cannot spread it. So why should an unvaxxed person who is not sick worry when there is a 2% chance of death and 98% survival rate?

 

[assassinz]

I always found it curious that the same people that worry about the extremely slim chances of suffering from side effects also tout the "extremely slim" chances of dying from covid, but also ignore the large chances of long term covid effects (30+%).

The vaxx pushers are the ones who are focused on the extremely small chance of dying from covid.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

See the closed cases. Only 2% have died after getting covid. Why spread fear about the virus when only a small percentage have died? It's going to be okay. Be brave. Don't listen to the mainstream media hype.

Active cases shows .5% as serious or critical. Why are you focusing on that .5% ? Why so scared? Oh, because the media tells you to huh?

 

[assassinz]

On the CDC's own website they site references to backup their claims. But when you click on some of their reference links you get this notice:

• "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) cannot attest to the accuracy of a non-federal website.

• Linking to a non-federal website does not constitute an endorsement by CDC or any of its employees of the sponsors or the information and products presented on the website."

Check it out for yourselves. This is why many don't trust what the CDC and media are trying to shove down their throat.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html

 

[Xzi]

Check it out for yourselves. This is why many don't trust what the CDC and media are trying to shove down their throat.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html

Lol, because of a bog-standard disclaimer? You also realize that the CDC isn't the only authority on medical science or microbiology on the planet, correct? There is no justification for taking the advice of internet randos/Youtubers at face value instead.

 

[omgcat]

The vaxx pushers are the ones who are focused on the extremely small chance of dying from covid.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

See the closed cases. Only 2% have died after getting covid. Why spread fear about the virus when only a small percentage have died? It's going to be okay. Be brave. Don't listen to the mainstream media hype.

Active cases shows .5% as serious or critical. Why are you focusing on that .5% ? Why so scared? Oh, because the media tells you to huh?

we're not worrying about people dying, we're worried about the 30+% of people that have long term issues like loss of smell, extreme brain fog, kidney damage, blood vessel damage, amputated toes (more blood clot issues). stop seeing the world in black and white. just because you didn't die doesn't mean you're fine.

 

[assassinz]

Lol, because of a bog-standard disclaimer? You also realize that the CDC isn't the only authority on medical science or microbiology on the planet, correct? There is no justification for taking the advice of internet randos/Youtubers at face value instead.

The point is that they are trying to make it seem like they have legit references to back up their claims, then at the same time say that their references may be unreliable via the disclaimer. So they just lost credibility with said resources. Thus they are not much better than taking a legit doctor on youtube at face value.