Whats your religion

[mysticwaterfall]

My faith in current theories is not absolute. This is a fundamental difference between religion and science. Religion will give you a set of laid-out facts as they were written by whoever wrote their holy texts many centuries ago. Religious adherents thus have ONE set of beliefs to, with a small margin of what may be their personal interpretation. There is a fixed doctrine. A belief in science is at the same time an ongoing pursuit. The doctrine will vary with time. You may believe facts that may one day be overturned completly. I'd rather stick with belief in something that is undergoing progress than fixed rigid concepts that offer less and less guidance to today's issues since the world is vastly different from how it was millenia ago.

My post was not meant to be anti-Science, just to point out that Science is not as absolute as people perceive it to be, and can require as much if not more faith then religion does. I'm glad to see you acknowledge this point.

However, you seem to be of the common misconception that somehow Science and Religion are wholly incompatible, while this is not true. As I have said before, science is our way of understanding the universe which God created. Therefore, science helps us understand the mechanism of God so to speak. Or again, as Einstein put it:

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
"I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Einstein did not believe in a personal, biblical God. But he did have a more less agnostic view that there was some form of a supreme being. This is not an uncommon view amongst scientists.

As for religion being fixed,rigid and outdated, I would say that the core tenants of Christianity are applicable to any age: The new covenant boils down to being a good person for the sole purpose of being a good person, not for any reward, just because it's the right thing to do.

I would agree that the majority of the old testament is no longer applicable to us today, as it was written for the Hebrew society of the time; but again, that is why we are now under the new covenant, as widely expressed by Paul in his epistles and by Peter in Acts. Or as Jesus put it:

Matthew 22:34-40 (NIV)

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Now, I don't force people to Christianity, as I don't force faith on anyone. But I'll debate about it anytime, anywhere. Science is an important part of the puzzle, but not the whole picture.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

My post was not meant to be anti-Science, just to point out that Science is not as absolute as people perceive it to be, and can require as much if not more faith then religion does. I'm glad to see you acknowledge this point.

However, you seem to be of the common misconception that somehow Science and Religion are wholly incompatible, while this is not true. As I have said before, science is our way of understanding the universe which God created. Therefore, science helps us understand the mechanism of God so to speak.

I'm curious as to why you think science requires "faith," when in reality it requires quite the opposite. Let me clarify. Scientists do not base their opinions on faith, it is through evidence. Rejection of a theory is done the same way as a rejection of religion. To have faith, or lack thereof, in a theory is folly.

You're right...kind of. It is not the way of understanding how the universe was created by God, rather the science is to be interpreted --factually of course-- however one wants.

"God did it through the Big Bang."
"The Big Bang happened via a quantum fluctuation."

Whatever way the person wants to interpret it.

 

[CCNaru]

I have no religion. no, I'm not an atheist either... I don't believe in anything/nothing.

 

[Nathan Drake]

I have no religion. no, I'm not an atheist either... I don't believe in anything/nothing.

If you don't believe in any form of a deity, you are basically the definition of an atheist. You carry no belief system already. Disbelief in any kind of God or anything of the like places you nicely in the atheist category. There is no "nothing" category.

 

[Vulpes Abnocto]

I have no religion. no, I'm not an atheist either... I don't believe in anything/nothing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would this be considered Nihilism?

 

[mysticwaterfall]

My post was not meant to be anti-Science, just to point out that Science is not as absolute as people perceive it to be, and can require as much if not more faith then religion does. I'm glad to see you acknowledge this point.

However, you seem to be of the common misconception that somehow Science and Religion are wholly incompatible, while this is not true. As I have said before, science is our way of understanding the universe which God created. Therefore, science helps us understand the mechanism of God so to speak.

I'm curious as to why you think science requires "faith," when in reality it requires quite the opposite. Let me clarify. Scientists do not base their opinions on faith, it is through evidence. Rejection of a theory is done the same way as a rejection of religion. To have faith, or lack thereof, in a theory is folly.

You're right...kind of. It is not the way of understanding how the universe was created by God, rather the science is to be interpreted --factually of course-- however one wants.

"God did it through the Big Bang."
"The Big Bang happened via a quantum fluctuation."

Whatever way the person wants to interpret it.

While it is true for a lot of things in science there is direct evidence (for instance, Newton's laws of motion, gravity, etc, etc), there are a lot of other things that require you to have a belief that model your using is correct. Otherwise, theories would never be disproven and we would all still think the 4 humors controlled our health. To use a more recent example,the orbit model of the atom was accepted for quite a while. We now known this to be completely wrong and that electrons instead act as density clouds around the nucleus. People believed in the original model, even though they couldn't prove it. What is that if not faith?

 

[Antoni-YO!]

I'm a Christian.

 

[Sumea]

I dunno would I say myself as agno-whatever or at-whatever

I do not belong to church or any other religion by birth, thanks to my mother who decided to leave church herself before birth of any of her children, to let us choose ourselves. And she does not even hate church, she likes it very much.

I myself do not give much of attention to it. I usually make (funny) analogy that I would be very bad christian because I'd damn everything in name of God, every negative thing that happens (quite often) - but as for now I can damn them on whatever that does not offend anyone (I refer to this entity "the unholy space genie) - and no, I do not believe or pray to this unholy space genie, unholy space genie exists only as bane of mine, damn for too strong wind while being outside on him.


As for religious people, I am okay with them, but I do think that things like evolution, long history or earth etc. has been scientifically (same scientifically as whole motherfucking science of medicine that saves millions of lives) proven facts. If a christian wants to fight against it, I think he is stupid. If he would want to be a sneaky, and awesome bastard who I'd be okay with, he'd say "God is masterplan behind beginning of evolution, and god created earth in Seven days of his, that may very well be millions years to us"

TL;DR:
I like science
EVERY christian should just say "god is one who 'rolled the ball' of evolution" and everyone is insta winners

People are OK.

Religion sucks only if stupid people make it suck.

 

[BlueStar]

I lost it in a corner.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

While it is true for a lot of things in science there is direct evidence (for instance, Newton's laws of motion, gravity, etc, etc), there are a lot of other things that require you to have a belief that model your using is correct. Otherwise, theories would never be disproven and we would all still think the 4 humors controlled our health. To use a more recent example,the orbit model of the atom was accepted for quite a while. We now known this to be completely wrong and that electrons instead act as density clouds around the nucleus. People believed in the original model, even though they couldn't prove it. What is that if not faith?

The Bohr model, still used today in the US (and I'm willing to bet nearly everywhere else), was not a model made with no evidence. It was an important model that used quantum mechanics to plot a 2-D model of an atom. Evidence supported it. And also, a theory is just that: a theory. Of course that particular theory could not be proven completely, because it was wrong.

The keyword here is evidence. An ironically magical word, evidence is the difference between "faith" and rejection of an idea based on empirical data, observation, and logic. Faith did not go into the theory of the Big Bang, Big Crunch, or black holes. It was all evidence. And, of course, there will be errors. I love errors; it shows we grow more intelligent all the time.

Now...the only thing that can relate to "faith," I think, is the thought experiment. That's having faith that one is correct, but again, it IS based on evidence. Spaghettification is a thought process brought about using known facts about black holes.

 

[DSGamer64]

Noah is said to have lived over 600 years.
I'm sorry, but that is just hilarious.

I know, right?
The Bible cracks me up sometimes.

People while being imperfect back then were still closer to perfection than we are now, as they hadn't degraded as much. Life expectancies decreased over time; Adam lived until he was 930, Noah was 600 by the time the flood actually came around. Many others lived for relatively long periods until over time the expectancy continued to drop closer to the ~80-100 years or so we're more familiar with.

a man turning water into wine (hypocritical because most die hard Christians think drinking is immoral)
Which it isn't. It's overdrinking that's advised against.

walking on water (witch craft is also apparently against the Bible)
That wasn't witchcraft.

and dying on a cross (wasn't actually a cross) only to be resurrected is either the work of the Devil or some other source of evil doing according to many religious folks.
So you think it's too far to consider that the being that created the entire universe and life to start with should have the ability to restore life?
Pharisees accused Jesus of working with the power of the Devil when he was expelling demons, but if that were true, Satan would be acting against his own interests. Someone that divided wouldn't be able to support himself at all.

A man living for 600 years is physically impossible
Now it is, but at the time it was common.

earliest known structures of any kind were primitive at best, building a ship that can hold literally tens of thousands of animals would be humanly impossible from a design point of view as there was neither the technology nor the know how to do so.
God knew how because he made the material. Not hard to give Noah instructions on exactly what to do.

QUOTE(DSGamer64 @ Apr 11 2011, 02:48 AM)

I see more evidence that we evolved from primates thousands of years ago then being created by some invisible being.

If we evolved from apes, then why don't we see any apes nowadays turning into humans?

QUOTE(machomuu @ Apr 11 2011, 03:04 AM)

And Moses is said to have lived over 1000 years (I'm not joking). However, they say that time is distorted. Alot. Those 1000 were acually much less, somewhere around 100 IIRC.

Moses only lived to be 120. No humans have lived beyond 1000 years. The oldest was Methuselah who died at 969.


QUOTE(Vulpes Abnocto @ Apr 11 2011, 04:20 AM)

Well this topic actually progressed much further than I expected it to before degenerating into "I'm right about everything!" comments.

I know, it surprised me too.

QUOTE(antwill @ Apr 11 2011, 07:59 AM)

Because the people who wrote those books, when the stories had been told for generations didn't know about the other planets, or evolution. That's why they only claim the Earth is thousands of years old, etc. And as has been said, you need to ignore evidence for faith to be maintained.

The Bible writers knew the Earth was round and suspended in space (due to the divine inspiration) when people in more recent years still thought it was flat and sitting on a great big turtle.

Yet none of your reasonings don't sound like a bunch of fairly tail bullshit to you? Sorry but the only texts that suggest anyone could be immortal or live for such vast lengths of time are all religious records. And of course the Bible was written by a bunch of followers of Jesus, pretty hard to prove that something isn't a complete load of hog wash when the whole book can't be proven to exist, it's basically a fictional novel without an official author.

 

[metamaster]

^ That may be your opinion, but that's what faith consists of. Believing in God for a Christan is believing "blindly" for an Atheist. Science versus faith.
You technically can't be any more sure that Noah (and everyone else in that era) lived 600 years then that man went on the moon. Someone can say you "blindly" believe what you are given.
The new testament was written by followers of Jesus, the old testament was written by prophets.
Also, those who wrote the Bible aren't just "a bunch of followers". For every word in the Bible, blood was shed. Those weren't some random guys who decided to write a fiction book in their free time, they actually believed in their cause and a lot of them died for it.

 

[machomuu]

And Moses is said to have lived over 1000 years (I'm not joking). However, they say that time is distorted. Alot. Those 1000 were acually much less, somewhere around 100 IIRC.

Moses only lived to be 120. No humans have lived beyond 1000 years. The oldest was Methuselah who died at 969.

That's basically what I said.

 

[ProtoKun7]

And Moses is said to have lived over 1000 years (I'm not joking). However, they say that time is distorted. Alot. Those 1000 were acually much less, somewhere around 100 IIRC.

Moses only lived to be 120. No humans have lived beyond 1000 years. The oldest was Methuselah who died at 969.

That's basically what I said.

You said it's said he lived for 1,000 years and that time was distorted. The time back then is pretty much as it was now, though I think the years were counted with 360 days or so rather than 365. The time wasn't distorted.

 

[BlueStar]

"If we evolved from apes, then why don't we see any apes nowadays turning into humans?"

The theory of evolution doesn't say we evolved from modern day apes at all. It says that us and other great apes shared a common ancestor.

 

[Sumea]

"If we evolved from apes, then why don't we see any apes nowadays turning into humans?"

The theory of evolution doesn't say we evolved from modern day apes at all. It says that us and other great apes shared a common ancestor.

This. I appreciate wise people who are Christian. I do not appreciate statements like this, because it is like the person has to turn himself into 5th grader, and as extra starts act knowingly stupid. You know, like acting that dumb guy ironically.

As I said, If I am to meet a Christian and I'd say him "do you think evolution is real" and he'd answer "YES I DO, but do you know the root of all evolution" and I'd have to shrug, and he'd make this awesome choir yell "THE GOD, ONE AND ALMIGHTY" and I'd go "Can't argue with that even if it is not what I think" and we'd go and have a drink, hopefully.

 

[mysticwaterfall]

As I said, If I am to meet a Christian and I'd say him "do you think evolution is real" and he'd answer "YES I DO, but do you know the root of all evolution" and I'd have to shrug, and he'd make this awesome choir yell "THE GOD, ONE AND ALMIGHTY" and I'd go "Can't argue with that even if it is not what I think" and we'd go and have a drink, hopefully.

Pretty much what I do, without the awesome choir effect of course...

 

[DSGamer64]

"If we evolved from apes, then why don't we see any apes nowadays turning into humans?"

The theory of evolution doesn't say we evolved from modern day apes at all. It says that us and other great apes shared a common ancestor.

On the same token, it can also be considered that we evolved from apes that no longer exist. Evolution does kill off species, I think the modern day reptiles are proof enough that all living organisms have evolved a lot over tens of thousands of years.

 

[Sumea]

As I said, If I am to meet a Christian and I'd say him "do you think evolution is real" and he'd answer "YES I DO, but do you know the root of all evolution" and I'd have to shrug, and he'd make this awesome choir yell "THE GOD, ONE AND ALMIGHTY" and I'd go "Can't argue with that even if it is not what I think" and we'd go and have a drink, hopefully.

Pretty much what I do, without the awesome choir effect of course...

Yeah, I just do not get the fights that come out of bit childish will of overpower and wanting to come out right, and neither side wants to be "wrong". It is so 1700's that people want to fight scientific facts, or about-damn-much-of-a-fact - Like when one scientist in 1800's was saying that planets do not orbit earth, but earth is orbiting sun among other planets.

That said, you are a awesome dude.

And well, I would be lying if I would say that there isn't stupid ass non-religious people.

 

[KingdomBlade]

As I said, If I am to meet a Christian and I'd say him "do you think evolution is real" and he'd answer "YES I DO, but do you know the root of all evolution" and I'd have to shrug, and he'd make this awesome choir yell "THE GOD, ONE AND ALMIGHTY" and I'd go "Can't argue with that even if it is not what I think" and we'd go and have a drink, hopefully.

Pretty much what I do, without the awesome choir effect of course...

Yeah, I just do not get the fights that come out of bit childish will of overpower and wanting to come out right, and neither side wants to be "wrong". It is so 1700's that people want to fight scientific facts, or about-damn-much-of-a-fact - Like when one scientist in 1800's was saying that planets do not orbit earth, but earth is orbiting sun among other planets.

That said, you are a awesome dude.

And well, I would be lying if I would say that there isn't stupid ass non-religious people.

Like some idiots who say that Jesus is the son of Satan or some shit like that.