Hardware Why the Pica 200?

[geoflcl]

But you'd still have to deal with the fact that the circuit board may just have way too much stuff on it.

Very good point.

I'm trying to think... If I'm not mistaken, when game companies like Sony or Microsoft make a smaller version of their system, they utilize updated, smaller, more-optimized versions of their parts and processors to make a smaller fit. The parts don't change in specs or power, but they're just "mini" and "lightweight" versions of the previous models'. I'm sure that since both the DS's ARM processors and the Pica 200 been around for some time, it's very likely that this could happen with them, so they could fit a new processor.

I still think adding a whole new processor separate from the DS's old one would be a very cumbersome and expensive setup, but I'm just saying that it's plausible at this point.

 

[pachura]

I'm thinking you'd have to kidnap the hot chick attached to it to steal one... Not that this would be such a bad idea! lol

It's the perfect protection system - all the geeks get completely paralyzed standing in front of a LIVE GIRL

QUOTE(DiscostewSM @ Aug 10 2010, 04:37 PM) Don't quote me on this, but I thought I remembered reading an article many months back about the DS's CPU (supposedly a single CPU) being able to handle emulation of both CPUs in the DS with room to spare. I have since been trying to find that article with no luck.

I'm not an expert on ARM processors either, but there is more than one CPU in ARM9 family (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture ). For instance, there's this ARM926EJ-S which seemigly runs at 200 MHz... I guess it would be backwards compatible with DS and DSi while providing much better performance, probably including (relatively simple) ARM7 emulation.

Another question is: does 3DS really need better CPU, if most of heavy tasks are handled by Pica200 ? Not that anyone needs complicated AI in handheld games...

 

[jonesman99]

Another question is: does 3DS really need better CPU, if most of heavy tasks are handled by Pica200 ? Not that anyone needs complicated AI in handheld games...

To be honest, I'd love to see better AI in handheld games, ESPECIALLY when they release SSF4 3DS Edition, or some other type of strategy game. My question is, how does the processor produce the AI, or how do the developer program AI into it.

Im a noob when it comes to this type of thing.

 

[granville]

Well there is a certain degree of CPU requirements for AI i would say. But i would ALSO say that a lot of it has to do with programming. Faster CPU's can help make good AI better, but if your programming sucks for AI-related stuff, nothing can really help you there. I'll cite the Lego games, which i feel have horrible AI, despite being on fairly advanced systems...

I thought the AI in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days was fairly good for example, a DS game. It being an action RPG, your partners need to support you in battle. I thought they did really well, they often managed to totally hold their own in combat, defeating enemies on their own without my help at all. They tended to hop in when i needed them and they even healed me when i needed it. Then you have a game like FF Crystal Chronicles Ring of Fates, which has absolutely horrible AI. Dumb as a rock and doesn't support any sort of help. They suck so much that they can't even follow you around properly. They even gave you a "call" button to instantly summon them to your side. Pathetic... So there's two examples on the same system that even have somewhat similar gameplay. One with surprisingly decent AI, one with horrible AI. You can have decent AI on fairly weak systems if the programmer does his/her job.

I think it's really advanced physics that truly test a system's power. I'm talking about games such as Force Unleashed with their dynamic physics engines which change the way things break or react to your actions every time you do something. These things were a big selling point for the game, and they advertise it heavily as needing the power of the PS3 and 360. Graphically, it looks like the 3DS can hold its own by nearly replicating graphics seen in a PS3 game (Resident Evil 5 to Revelations). But when you bring the "smart physics" in, you'll find some issues methinks...

 

[Berthenk]

Not that anyone needs complicated AI in handheld games...
This. Hell, most of the AI in more advanced games (360, PS3, even computer games) sucks. Bigtime.
If we only need a better CPU for AI that sucks the same, if not bigger amount of donkeyballs, I prefer longer battery life.

QUOTE(granville @ Aug 10 2010, 07:25 PM) I think it's really advanced physics that truly test a system's power. I'm talking about games such as Force Unleashed with their dynamic physics engines which change the way things break or react to your actions every time you do something. These things were a big selling point for the game, and they advertise it heavily as needing the power of the PS3 and 360. Graphically, it looks like the 3DS can hold its own by nearly replicating graphics seen in a PS3 game (Resident Evil 5 to Revelations). But when you bring the "smart physics" in, you'll find some issues methinks...

Ah, there you have it. I knew someone'd bring up physics. Even on a computer, physics is hard to simulate.
That's why Valve used pre-rendered physics, in a way. They used a renderfarm to render the physics, and then used normal moving props to animate the physics.

 

[Deathmore]

Not that anyone needs complicated AI in handheld games...

You're missing the point here, we are looking at a system that right now is one generation behind home consoles, baisicly this thing is the Xbox (well it actually is the wii, but it's considered this gen so take it anyway you want). Handhelds are now portable home consoles, so then why wouldn't be AI, it's only one generation behind home consoles and I certainly remember PS2 GC and Xbox games having good AI.

For those worrying about SSFIV AI I think you should not.

 

[geoflcl]

You're missing the point here, we are looking at a system that right now is one generation behind home consoles, baisicly this thing is the Xbox (well it actually is the wii, but it's considered this gen so take it anyway you want). Handhelds are now portable home consoles, so then why wouldn't be AI, it's only one generation behind home consoles and I certainly remember PS2 GC and Xbox games having good AI.

For those worrying about SSFIV AI I think you should not.

This!

Portables are becoming more and more capable. The console game experience and the handheld game experience are becoming more alike with each generation, and as a result, should be treated as equal game offerings.

 

[Berthenk]

Portables are becoming more and more capable. The console game experience and the handheld game experience are becoming more alike with each generation, and as a result, should be treated as equal game offerings.

Too bad this likely won't happen. Developers will probably keep the "don't do shit and earn lotsa moneyz" mind that they had with the DS.
Therefore, they won't use the extra power.

 

[Deathmore]

Portables are becoming more and more capable. The console game experience and the handheld game experience are becoming more alike with each generation, and as a result, should be treated as equal game offerings.

Too bad this likely won't happen. Developers will probably keep the "don't do shit and earn lotsa moneyz" mind that they had with the DS.
Therefore, they won't use the extra power.

Well seeing as developing for the 3DS is like developing for a PS2 Wii GC and Xbox

and that MT Framework games can easily be ported to the 3DS (Come on Marvel vs Capcom 3), I don't see anything wrong with that. Infact it makes development even more easier because they don't have to worry about the limited pixels like they did for the DS.

 

[Midna]

does anyone know anything about the CPU of the 3DS?

Not specifically, though it is very likely an ARM processor, possibly (and likely) a higher clocked version of the ARM7 and ARM9 CPU's on old DS systems. I say likely because i don't believe ARM processors are compatible game-wise. Meaning games have to be specifically programmed for each kind of ARM processor i believe. So if they changed processors, they'd likely not be able to have back compatibility with DS/DSi games. So the odds are very likely that the 3DS will retain the same processors as the DS, but clocked FAR higher. I think one of those processors can go somewhere near ~700mhz or something, not sure...

Oi. ARM 11 processors can run ARM 9 code, yes they can. but they run it too fast. Nintendo isn't going to want that. I mentioned this earlier, but since Nintendo has made all their handhelds backwards compatible, they have a vast history of cleverly reusing the hardware from the previous generation. I don't know what they'll do. there are many possibilities, that one included. But going by what Nintendo's done before, I think we might be a bit surprised. For instance, the GBA used the Z80 (to maintain GB/C compatibility) as it's sound processor.

They might do something different, but you have a very sound guess. It's fair to bet on a higher clocked ARM 9 and 7. (The 7 will be there, as it handles sound. They're not going to go playing around with sound timing.) Having an ARM 7 on board wouldn't be too bad either. It could pull off the more minor tasks like the touch screen and sound. Only time will tell.

 

[dsfanatic5]

@dsfanatic5

Just take a chill pill dude. You're the one who used revision in a way you clearly didn't intend. When we use the term revision, it's the incremental release of the exact same system with a few minor adjustments. For example

Gameboy (1st gen cartridge handheld).
Revisions of Gameboy- Gameboy Light, Gameboy Pocket.
---
Gameboy Color (i'd call this not so much a generational leap as more of an upgrade, but it was the only one of its kind with no revisions).
---
Gameboy Advance (what i'd call a second gen cartridge handheld).
Revisions of GBA- GBA SP, GBA Micro, GBA SP2 (better screen)
---
Nintendo DS (may have been intended as an experiment, but not anymore due to success 3rd gen cart handheld)
Revisions of DS- DS Lite
---
I'd call the DSi similar to the GBC, slightly more power than the DS but not a true new system
---
Nintendo 3DS (definitely 4th gen, much more powerful with an entirely new game library, specifically stated by Nintendo to be a brand new generation of handheld)

I wanted to add here that about a month ago, Nintendo said there WAS room for a bigger screen for future revisions. And new revisions will surely be made and they WILL use a larger screen. Just saying, they don't need to wait for technology to get better.

Sorry, you're right, and I agree with your breakdown. Sometimes I have a few beers, and post really late at night when I'm tired. I do enjoy this detailed discussion a lot, since there's a complete lack of new information about the 3DS, and I'm as excited as everyone about it. Apologies to Midna for my reaction.

 

[Midna]

No worries. My initial reply probably did come across as pretty critical.

 

[pachura]

Oi. ARM 11 processors can run ARM 9 code, yes they can. but they run it too fast.

I thought that when developing videogames, you don't rely on processor cycles for timing, but synchronize with Vertical Blank, realtime clock, or a fixed framerate. Imagine a Tetris clone written for Pentium III 1 GHz. It will run fine on Core 2 Duo 2 GHz, not X times faster...

The main purpose of putting ARM7 in DS/DSi was to provide 100% hardware compatibility with GBA. Plus it was given some background tasks, namely music playback and touchscreen. So, theoretically, Nintendo can leave ARM7 in place just for the sake of DS compatibility and upgrade ARM9 to ARM11, or to a 200 MHz ARM9. Another solution is software emulation; Sony and Microsoft have been quite successful doing it (PS2 on PS3; PSX on PSP; Xbox on Xbox360). The emulation might not be precisely 100% correct, but it could be enough (c'mon, most people will buy 3DS to play 3DS games in 3D, NDS games will be played just occassionally, who cares if Imagine Hanna Montana Cooking Dogz drops a frame or two).

 

[granville]

I seriously doubt emulation would work, not with that kind of processing. PS3 had all kinds of issue with PS2 emulation and the cell processor was cited as one of the most powerful CPU's in the world if i recall correctly. The 3DS, impressive though it may be, would probably not be able to emulate the entire DS architecture.

I'm more interested about the ARM11 thing though. I didn't know you could just run ARM9 code on it without trouble. If it's too fast, they might be able to find a way to have an intelligent speed decrease when playing DS games. I actually think that's what the DSi does when playing most DS games. I doubt it's running full frequency when it isn't necessary.

For reference here though, i've seen people who have managed to mod their DSes into overclocking. An example- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL8xi_CgIJ4

It seems that when you bump the actual speed up, the entire game speeds up with it. I would imagine that the reason this issue doesn't occur with DSi is due to intelligent downclocking. Either that, or i have no idea about how the DSi works, which is probably the case lol! But for all intents and purposes, it's possible. It's not like playing GBA games on a DS uses the ARM9, only the ARM7. If they can get that perfect frequency with the ARM11 and the games didn't have trouble running on it native, there could be some merit to that.

 

[BadBloke]

Oi. ARM 11 processors can run ARM 9 code, yes they can. but they run it too fast.

I thought that when developing videogames, you don't rely on processor cycles for timing, but synchronize with Vertical Blank, realtime clock, or a fixed framerate. Imagine a Tetris clone written for Pentium III 1 GHz. It will run fine on Core 2 Duo 2 GHz, not X times faster...

Well put. This *should* be the case with the DS, at least. I've seen some DOS games back from the late 80s / early 90s reaching the "game over" screen in less than a second in my old P3/733, but it would be ridiculous if game developers nowadays simply hardcoded everything to match up the CPU speed instead of locking it to VBlank or locked framerate.

 

[Midna]

I seriously doubt emulation would work, not with that kind of processing. PS3 had all kinds of issue with PS2 emulation and the cell processor was cited as one of the most powerful CPU's in the world if i recall correctly. The 3DS, impressive though it may be, would probably not be able to emulate the entire DS architecture.

I'm more interested about the ARM11 thing though. I didn't know you could just run ARM9 code on it without trouble. If it's too fast, they might be able to find a way to have an intelligent speed decrease when playing DS games. I actually think that's what the DSi does when playing most DS games. I doubt it's running full frequency when it isn't necessary.

For reference here though, i've seen people who have managed to mod their DSes into overclocking. An example- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL8xi_CgIJ4

It seems that when you bump the actual speed up, the entire game speeds up with it. I would imagine that the reason this issue doesn't occur with DSi is due to intelligent downclocking. Either that, or i have no idea about how the DSi works, which is probably the case lol! But for all intents and purposes, it's possible. It's not like playing GBA games on a DS uses the ARM9, only the ARM7. If they can get that perfect frequency with the ARM11 and the games didn't have trouble running on it native, there could be some merit to that.

See that's it though. You speed up the processor, the game speeds up too. That's why an ARM11 would be an issue. An ARM9 can be underclocked to exactly what the DS ran at for DS games. I believe that's what the DSi does.

 

[Berthenk]

So why can't they downclock the ARM11 if they're going to use it?

 

[mehrab2603]

does anyone know anything about the CPU of the 3DS?

Not specifically, though it is very likely an ARM processor, possibly (and likely) a higher clocked version of the ARM7 and ARM9 CPU's on old DS systems. I say likely because i don't believe ARM processors are compatible game-wise. Meaning games have to be specifically programmed for each kind of ARM processor i believe. So if they changed processors, they'd likely not be able to have back compatibility with DS/DSi games. So the odds are very likely that the 3DS will retain the same processors as the DS, but clocked FAR higher. I think one of those processors can go somewhere near ~700mhz or something, not sure...

Oi. ARM 11 processors can run ARM 9 code, yes they can. but they run it too fast. Nintendo isn't going to want that. I mentioned this earlier, but since Nintendo has made all their handhelds backwards compatible, they have a vast history of cleverly reusing the hardware from the previous generation. I don't know what they'll do. there are many possibilities, that one included. But going by what Nintendo's done before, I think we might be a bit surprised. For instance, the GBA used the Z80 (to maintain GB/C compatibility) as it's sound processor.

They might do something different, but you have a very sound guess. It's fair to bet on a higher clocked ARM 9 and 7. (The 7 will be there, as it handles sound. They're not going to go playing around with sound timing.) Having an ARM 7 on board wouldn't be too bad either. It could pull off the more minor tasks like the touch screen and sound. Only time will tell.

If the ARM7 is there the 3DS should have GBA compatibility too.But all Nintendo has confirmed so far is DS compatibility.I know there isn't any gba slot but they could have confirmed digitally downloaded gba support.So will ARM7 really be there?And if it isn't,then how are they going to handle ds sound?

 

[Rydian]

They already lost something around 30 minutes of battery life just clocking the DSi a little higher than DS.

Actually the ARM9 in the DSi is almost twice as fast as the original, it's got a new chip for digital audio, the speaker are louder, both screens are bigger and can go brighter, it's got four times the memory, it's got internal storage, and an SD card slot.

That's a lot more to power.

 

[pachura]

For reference here though, i've seen people who have managed to mod their DSes into overclocking. An example- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL8xi_CgIJ4

Hmmm, it's quite interesting how did it work ?
Did they overclock both ARM9 and ARM7 by the same factor ? I think that if both processors are not in sync, probably everything crashes, not only sound and touchscreen-related functionality...
Plus the game had to be written in a lame way (as BadBloke said, 80's/90's).