Hardware Why the Pica 200?

[Midna]

They already lost something around 30 minutes of battery life just clocking the DSi a little higher than DS.

Actually the ARM9 in the DSi is almost twice as fast as the original, it's got a new chip for digital audio, the speaker are louder, both screens are bigger and can go brighter, it's got four times the memory, it's got internal storage, and an SD card slot.

That's a lot more to power.

That's why we lost so much power in the upgrade to the DSi

 

[VmprHntrD]

Granville is right, there is precedent for previous Nintendo systems using speed limiting chips. Gameboy Color was a GB all the way, except that the z80 chip was x2 the speed and it had a little more ram in various ways for the 100% clear/gray coated GBC only games to use. But, if you jacked in a black or gray old cart GB game in there, they didn't run double clocked at all. I imagine Nintendo is smart enough to take an ARM11 and put in a breaker so that it could run ARM9 code and at the right speed. Just because perhaps a stock ARM11 is dumb to slowing up for ARM9 code it can read entirely doesn't mean it can't be regulated externally.

 

[Rydian]

Okay, this is pulled from my ass because I've no clue if this is how it works with embedded systems, but...

Wouldn't you just need to change the multiplier?

I mean a processor's clock rate is set according to it's current multiplier times the externally-supplied frequency (usually a crystal oscillator), and the reason overclocking is tricky is because most home processors have a locked multiplier, so you need to modify the external signal... but "black edition" and such processors have an unlocked multiplier allowing easy overclocking via the motherboard settings since you can directly modify the multiplier.

So since Nintendo is building this system themselves they can just set it up to modify the multiplier as needed.

Hell, Intel's SpeedStep (at least the earlier versions) and AMD's Cool'N'Quiet or howeverthefuckit'sspeltsotheycancopyrightit work like that, they simply lower the multiplier as needed to reduce their final cock rate.

 

[Midna]

Sounds plausable, but I'm out of my depth now.

I'd say the 3DS will either use an ARM9 or 11 and an ARM7. That's my best guess, but we'll see.

 

[granville]

They already lost something around 30 minutes of battery life just clocking the DSi a little higher than DS.

Actually the ARM9 in the DSi is almost twice as fast as the original, it's got a new chip for digital audio, the speaker are louder, both screens are bigger and can go brighter, it's got four times the memory, it's got internal storage, and an SD card slot.

That's a lot more to power.

Fair enough, but i would imagine that the CPU is taking the most power out of the device. Clock it even higher, like several hundred megahertz, and you'll have a severe strain on battery life. Then you have the new GPU and who knows what other specs... The internal storage and SD card slot won't do much to the power consumption though. The 3D screen might though.

 

[Midna]

No, see I'm pretty sure the DSi underclocks for regular DS games. That leaves the power loss to the other extra things the DSi had. That could be even more ominous, though, since that would mean that the DSi loses all that power without the processor being clocked any higher. Imagine the power the 3DS could lose if it has a far faster processor and that graphics chip, in addition to all the extra power eating features. Unless batteries have become better and cheaper since the DSi came out, we could be in for a power hit.

Only time will tell.

Edit: That smiley wins, Rydian.

 

[pachura]

As a side note, I really don't get why do they make such a big deal of backwards compatibility. I would gladly see dropping DS compatibility in 3DS in favor of upgrading ARM9+ARM7 processors to something more modern, maybe some System-on-a-Chip, Snapdragon, iPhone's A4, whatever ? C'mon, if someone buys 3DS, it's not for playing DS games. Myself, I've tried some GBA games on my DS (I had a Slot-2 flashcard), but wasn't particularly fascinated - they clearly represented past generation. And if someone already owns a collection of original GBA games, he has probably beaten them all to death on his own GBA... why to play them again ?

 

[granville]

I wouldn't want dropped DS support. I always cherish back compatibility in the first versions of a new handheld. I appreciated GB/GBC support on GBA, and i appreciated GBA support on the DS. In fact, i actually dislike it when they come out with a rather unnecessary new revision that does little but drops support for something we already had and adds very very little in exchange (GBA Micro, DSi).

If i get a 3DS, i'm definitely going to use it to play DS games. I played GBA games all the time on DS (new ones in fact that i had never played on GBA before). It's one of the main reasons i didn't re-buy my DS Lite when i sold it for financial reasons. The 3DS was announced to have DS back compatibility. I'll be using it partially for that, especially since the 3DS will likely be like a lot of other systems and lack a ton of launch titles... All those games on that list are not going to be coming out WITH the system, but later on. With all due respect, i hate it when someone makes a naive assumption like that pachura. You're assuming everyone can buy every single system there is. People used the logic that i should buy a GBA when DSi dropped support for the games. I don't think i should have to buy a brand new system if i can just play them on a newer one that has more universal support. I'm an emulation junkie too, when they hack and develop for the thing, i'll be getting every system i can for it and playing them. The reason they make a big deal about back compatibility is that it's common sense. Just because YOU don't care, doesn't mean others don't. I care a lot. And cutting support for an older system can piss me off, at least when the system is just a crappy revision with no serious advantages (GBA Micro and to a lesser extent, DSi).

At any rate, i seriously doubt 3DS is being gimped very much at the presence of DS/DSi support. It's quite clear from all the screens and videos that the system is actually extremely powerful. It has been cited by Miyamoto himself that the system is about on par with Wii in terms of raw power. I don't think it needs to be any more powerful. Having DS support and seeing what the system can do on its own is enough. They clearly know what they're doing, Nintendo. They've already confirmed the battery life was as good as DSi, the only question is HOW they did it.

 

[Chaosruler]

I wouldn't want dropped DS support. I always cherish back compatibility in the first versions of a new handheld. I appreciated GB/GBC support on GBA, and i appreciated GBA support on the DS. In fact, i actually dislike it when they come out with a rather unnecessary new revision that does little but drops support for something we already had and adds very very little in exchange (GBA Micro, DSi).

If i get a 3DS, i'm definitely going to use it to play DS games. I played GBA games all the time on DS (new ones in fact that i had never played on GBA before). It's one of the main reasons i didn't re-buy my DS Lite when i sold it for financial reasons. The 3DS was announced to have DS back compatibility. I'll be using it partially for that, especially since the 3DS will likely be like a lot of other systems and lack a ton of launch titles... All those games on that list are not going to be coming out WITH the system, but later on. With all due respect, i hate it when someone makes a naive assumption like that pachura. You're assuming everyone can buy every single system there is. People used the logic that i should buy a GBA when DSi dropped support for the games. I don't think i should have to buy a brand new system if i can just play them on a newer one that has more universal support. I'm an emulation junkie too, when they hack and develop for the thing, i'll be getting every system i can for it and playing them. The reason they make a big deal about back compatibility is that it's common sense. Just because YOU don't care, doesn't mean others don't. I care a lot. And cutting support for an older system can piss me off, at least when the system is just a crappy revision with no serious advantages (GBA Micro and to a lesser extent, DSi).

At any rate, i seriously doubt 3DS is being gimped very much at the presence of DS/DSi support. It's quite clear from all the screens and videos that the system is actually extremely powerful. It has been cited by Miyamoto himself that the system is about on par with Wii in terms of raw power. I don't think it needs to be any more powerful. Having DS support and seeing what the system can do on its own is enough. They clearly know what they're doing, Nintendo. They've already confirmed the battery life was as good as DSi, the only question is HOW they did it.

*WHERE* did they confirm that the battery life will be about 11.5+ hours?

 

[Blebleman]

Well, to be honest, if ever they do actually drop hardware backward compatibility, it could be a non-issue, at least in the end, because the hardware seems more than capable of software emulation.

 

[Midna]

Nope. That's nearly always a two generation jump. It would take a huge upgrade for a new system to be able to emulate it's predecessor.

 

[Berthenk]

Nope. That's nearly always a two generation jump. It would take a huge upgrade for a new system to be able to emulate it's predecessor.

Remember that the 3DS has its own GPU now, that might make the difference. Ever heard of GPGPU. That might be possible. You'll never know untill you try it.

 

[Rydian]

As a side note, I really don't get why do they make such a big deal of backwards compatibility.Because not everybody has a DS, and if you buy a backwards compatible system you can play the older games as well without having to buy the older system.
I'm sure as hell people enjoy being able to play gamecube games on their wii without having to buy a gamecube.

*WHERE* did they confirm that the battery life will be about 11.5+ hours?The DSi's battery lasts about that long on the lowest brightness setting, unfortunately.

QUOTE(Midna @ Aug 13 2010, 05:30 PM)

Nope. That's nearly always a two generation jump. It would take a huge upgrade for a new system to be able to emulate it's predecessor.

Remember that the 3DS has its own GPU now, that might make the difference. Ever heard of GPGPU. That might be possible. You'll never know untill you try it.

Except that GPGPU is for CUDA/Tesla, which there's no support for on the 3DS.

I can say that because of two things.

1 - It's a big feature, so if it was it'd be advertised.
2 - No official homebrew support to use it and they don't want hacks/mods, so why include it if it's not going to be used and will cost a lost of money to include and just entice people to hack the device even more?

 

[pachura]

With all due respect, i hate it when someone makes a naive assumption like that pachura.

Just because YOU don't care, doesn't mean others don't. I care a lot.

No no no. My point was that, given the choice between moving forward to a more powerful architecture AND keeping the old one, just overclocked, for the sake of 100% hardware compatibility, I would choose the former. For instance, if a new architecture (some SoC perhaps) could turn 3DS into a proper handheld media center, capable of MP4 and H.264 playback, and maybe even TV output with upscaling, I would gladly dump NDS compatibility.

I know SOME people care about backwards compatibility a lot. Especially here on this forum, where most people are fans of handheld gaming. But to tell whether they are majority or not, you'd need to gather statistics from a meaningful sample of all NDS users, teenagers, casual players, older people using DSi XL etc. The problem is, to keep backwards compatibility, you have to make some sacrifices - put another chip to emulate the old console, keep machine code compatibility, keep similar internal architecture. I'd prefer e.g. to get rid of ARM7 and instead install some chip to support in-game physics calculation (not realistic, but just an example).

QUOTE

You're assuming everyone can buy every single system there is.

No. I am assuming that for most people, backward compatibility does not matter so much. Especially for people who already had DS before and played all the best games.

Another point - DS emulation on 3DS might not look so good. 3DS has different screen resolution (320x240 vs. 256x192), so you have to upscale or use smaller area - which wasn't the case in GBA emulation on DS. And usually, upscaling of hand-drawn graphics (e.g. Castlevania) makes it look ugly.

 

[foob]

3DS has different screen resolution (320x240 vs. 256x192), so you have to upscale or use smaller area - which wasn't the case in GBA emulation on DS.

We have black bars on the DS with GBA titles. Not sure what you mean here.

240x160 = GBA
256x192 = DS

 

[granville]

What foob said, and the DS didn't use emulation to play GBA games, it had all the necessary hardware inside to have full and perfect GBA support. The iPlayer and SCDSTWO use emulation to support GBA games, and it's not that great. The compatibility isn't perfect and there's all kind of speed issues and glitches. GBA emulation on a normal DS is impossible, as is well established on this forum with all the fools who have been asking about it for years.

BTW, don't make assumptions. Considering i'm one of the people who cherish back compatibility, i'm sure there are more such people. I've played more GBA games on my DS than i have on my original GBA (i sold my GBA and replaced it with a DS Lite). And i'm of the mindset that i wouldn't want to trade DS back compatibility for something related to video or music playback (you can already do this on DS anyways, even GBA to some extent). I'm in the mindset that game systems are for playing games, not for using as a portable ipod or whatever. Nice additional feature yes, but not at the expense for dropped game support. I'm old fashioned that way, i believe that game systems are meant to play games first and foremost. If it was for truly better games, maybe i'd allow some dropped support. But advanced physics can really go wrong anyways, look at Force Unleashed. That's something i sure wouldn't wish to have in the stead of full DS support...

 

[pachura]

We have black bars on the DS with GBA titles. Not sure what you mean here.

240x160 = GBA
256x192 = DS

I meant 3DS' backwards compatibility with DS(i). Displaying 256x192 picture on a 320x240 screen means 20% of screen width and height occupied by black bars. That's quite a lot, isn't it ?

 

[anoNL]

Nope. That's nearly always a two generation jump. It would take a huge upgrade for a new system to be able to emulate it's predecessor.

Remember that the 3DS has its own GPU now, that might make the difference. Ever heard of GPGPU. That might be possible. You'll never know untill you try it.

Alas, no fragment shaders -> no GPGPU

 

[foob]

I meant 3DS' backwards compatibility with DS(i). Displaying 256x192 picture on a 320x240 screen means 20% of screen width and height occupied by black bars. That's quite a lot, isn't it ?

It's quite a chunk of space, yes.

In another post I basically expressed my concerns about this. It's quite a jump in resolution and DS games will have to use less of the screen real-estate, including touch screen. Will make things sort of odd. I'm quite sure Nintendo won't fill the screen, interpolating the graphics.

Anyway, to me it never felt right playing GBA on DS, but I can understand there are some real fans. Ideally it would be nice if Nintendo still sold their old units, but it's probably not realistic, business-wise. I would definitely buy them, though...all the way back to Game Boy original.

 

[jimwhat]

I meant 3DS' backwards compatibility with DS(i). Displaying 256x192 picture on a 320x240 screen means 20% of screen width and height occupied by black bars. That's quite a lot, isn't it ?

It's quite a chunk of space, yes.

In another post I basically expressed my concerns about this. It's quite a jump in resolution and DS games will have to use less of the screen real-estate, including touch screen. Will make things sort of odd. I'm quite sure Nintendo won't fill the screen, interpolating the graphics.

Anyway, to me it never felt right playing GBA on DS, but I can understand there are some real fans. Ideally it would be nice if Nintendo still sold their old units, but it's probably not realistic, business-wise. I would definitely buy them, though...all the way back to Game Boy original.

I was thinking that it could possibly be stretched out, but it would just look so weird. I'll actually be ok with black bars as long as their really black and not some horribly back lit black.