Oklahoma Republican proposes that any provider who provides gender affirming care to 26 year olds or younger is a felony

[RetroGen]

-snip-

This represents the sort of ignorant, denialistic, attitude that drives anti-transgender laws and policies. It's no surprise that they tend to come from the political right, known for heightened disgust response (as seen above), and the denial of scientific facts. It's bad faith to act as an apologist for such groups/individuals and portray their views as scientifically-guided. It would be much more honest to simply admit that bigotry is the key motivator.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26481-left-or-right-wing-brains-disgust-response-tells-all/

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2023

https://www.them.us/story/transition-regret-percentage-overblown-study

"A new review of medical data has found even more proof that transgender youth know who they are — and that fears over transition regret are dramatically overblown by anti-trans activists.

The study, published October 20 in The Lancet, a prestigious and long-running medical journal, reviewed information from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria about trans patients who took puberty blockers before turning 18. Researchers examined the medical records of 720 patients at Amsterdam UMC’s Center for Expertise on Gender Dysphoria who had historically received at least three months of puberty blockers as minors, and attempted to determine how many of those patients had an active prescription for hormone replacement therapy on file as of December 31, 2018.

Of the entire cohort, 704 were found to have active HRT prescriptions at the end of the data collection period — a massive 98% of the patients analyzed.

As for the remaining 2%, researchers cautioned that the absence of data doesn’t mean they necessarily returned to identifying with their gender assigned at birth; most of those 16 had undergone some form of gonadectomy as part of their transition-related care, researchers noted, and may not realize they still need hormone treatment to avoid osteoporosis or other conditions. Others could be nonbinary and not desire further hormonal treatment, or may have been pressured into halting treatment by outside stressors, such as unaccepting family members.

The Amsterdam study’s findings affirm previous research into the persistence of gender identity among trans youth, and illustrate some of the challenges in identifying why a small number of people halt or reverse their medical transitions. Another study of over 300 young people from the Princeton Trans Youth Project published in May indicated that around 97.5% persisted in identifying as trans and/or nonbinary at the end of a five-year study period.

These studies increasingly demonstrate that the ongoing conservative freakout over gender identity and trans “desistance” is, at best, a massive overreaction. In an interview on liberal comedian Jon Stewart’s show The Problem earlier this month, Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge claimed that 98% of gender-dysphoric youth will eventually identify as cisgender — not only an “incredibly made-up” statistic, as Stewart noted, but per the Amsterdam and Princeton studies, precisely the inverse of what is true."

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2023

https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/full...t_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx

"Results:

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively. A total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS. Twenty-eight had minor and 34 had major regret based on Pfäfflin’s regret classification. The majority had clear regret based on Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis classification.

Conclusions:​

Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population."

 

[Doran754]

I agree with the premise but not sure why It's set at 26 years. Should be 18, when you're an adult you should be able to do what you want (as long as it doesn't harm someone else).

 

[sombrerosonic]

This represents the sort of ignorant, denialistic, attitude that drives anti-transgender laws and policies. It's no surprise that they tend to come from the political right, known for heightened disgust response (as seen above), and the denial of scientific facts. It's bad faith to act as an apologist for such groups/individuals and portray their views as scientifically-guided. It would be much more honest to simply admit that bigotry is the key motivator.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26481-left-or-right-wing-brains-disgust-response-tells-all/

I think what he was saying was this man, maybe we should let the kids grow up BEFORE we give them hormone replacement therapy or have them transition. U know? let them grow up before they make life changing decisions?

It should really be 18 and not 26

 

[The Catboy]

It's extremely doubtful that this anti-transgender bill is the result of anything scientific, such that any correlates in the literature are probably spurious cherry-picking at best. Rather, it is punitive legislation which is more likely motivated by religious and political ideology and the denial of scientific facts, as most such views generally are.

Something to bear in mind is that there is a limited time window for developing secondary sexual characteristics. Barring transgender people from receiving gender affirming care until well into adulthood all but guarantees that their bodies will develop with the wrong secondary sexual characteristics, callously ensuring permanent gender dysphoria and all of the psychological issues that come with it. Suffice to say, I accept the reality that transgender people exist and require timely, scientifically-informed, medical care. Ideologically driven denial of this has no place in modern governance.

They are never based on anything scientific or even based on reality—a great example is the laws of the anti-trans sport that have been passed in recent years. Their claims have always been about "protecting women's sports" but always arise in states with little to no trans athletes and literally no trans people that are majorly successful in those sports. Equally, these results are across the board as trans athletes are not dominating in any sports.
And the most current laws are not following any of the science known about treating trans people. Far more studies have shown the harm of delaying HRT or gender-affirming care in any form. This includes the harm done by delaying or ignoring social trans care, the often influence cited statics of "42%" come from studies that show these numbers come from trans people facing adversity and transphobia. The entire "debate" on when trans people should start care has always been junk science at best and danger transphobia at worse. The majority of research on the topic has shown just this and thus these laws aren't based on any of that research. And the mental gymnastics to justify these laws is purely a hatred of trans people pretending to be a concern for them. Simply put, it's transphobic laws created by assholes who want trans people to either leave their states or die off from lack of care.

 

[Doran754]

This represents the sort of ignorant, denialistic, attitude that drives anti-transgender laws and policies. It's no surprise that they tend to come from the political right, known for heightened disgust response (as seen above), and the denial of scientific facts.

Calling people with a different viewpoint ignorant and anti transgender sure will make them come round to your viewpoint quicker! Goodjob. There's really no issue with waiting for children to grow up, If they're trans at 10 they'll still be trans at 18, then they can make an educated decision based on their own consent. It's no surprise that groomers tend to come from the political left. See how this works? Maybe don't automatically label a bunch of people.

 

[TraderPatTX]

This isn’t about children, it’s just a hatred of trans people and no amount of mental gymnastics can change that fact. Conservatives are just hateful people who hate when other people have freedom, that’s how it has always been.

The irony that you used the term "mental gymnastics" on this thread is not lost on me.

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2023

It's extremely doubtful that this anti-transgender bill is the result of anything scientific, such that any correlates in the literature are probably spurious cherry-picking at best. Rather, it is punitive legislation which is more likely motivated by religious and political ideology and the denial of scientific facts, as most such views generally are.

You know what's not scientific? Telling people and kids that chopping off their breasts or penises and spending the rest of their lives taking hormone medications will make them feel better about themselves.

One does not treat mental illness physically. It's silly to think bringing the body in line with the mind is better than bringing the mind in line with physical reality. It requires a lot less cutting, recovery and hospital bills.

 

[TraderPatTX]

RetroDegen promoting the taking of kids to the chop shop, otherwise "bigotry".

These are "trans people" trying to validate themselves by sacrificing children. In that light, what is there not to hate? Honestly, I don't think they are trans. They are just perverts and most people are capable of recognizing them--which is why they prey on children.

Don't you dare say that groomers are going after children. It's not like they are teaching college courses... oh wait.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...offers-course-healthcare-LGBTQIA-infants.html

 

[Wolfy]

They are never based on anything scientific or even based on reality—a great example is the laws of the anti-trans sport that have been passed in recent years. Their claims have always been about "protecting women's sports" but always arise in states with little to no trans athletes and literally no trans people that are majorly successful in those sports. Equally, these results are across the board as trans athletes are not dominating in any sports.
And the most current laws are not following any of the science known about treating trans people. Far more studies have shown the harm of delaying HRT or gender-affirming care in any form. This includes the harm done by delaying or ignoring social trans care, the often influence cited statics of "42%" come from studies that show these numbers come from trans people facing adversity and transphobia. The entire "debate" on when trans people should start care has always been junk science at best and danger transphobia at worse. The majority of research on the topic has shown just this and thus these laws aren't based on any of that research. And the mental gymnastics to justify these laws is purely a hatred of trans people pretending to be a concern for them. Simply put, it's transphobic laws created by assholes who want trans people to either leave their states or die off from lack of care.

I think most would agree though that trans athletes would have either a advantage or disadvantage in sports if they participated in a different gender's respective sport right? It's not about them being successful or not, its about maintaining fairness not unlike with doping and other drugs I would think. Injuries based on more strength/aggressiveness, or due to the opposite could be a possibility so why chance it at all? How to treat one another has always been about understanding, but how many people in the world don't agree with one another? Not just for transgenderism, but for every topic, controversial or not, just letting your thoughts or factions be known always will trigger someone. It's why the majority of the world just fits into their respective groups or blend in while around others, because trying to find people who agree with you can be rough especially depending on where you are in the world. Families have their right to protect each other from any idea they find harmful for their kids, only until their old enough(18 years of age for the US). After that they should be free to make their decisions.

 

[RetroGen]

The link below offers a meta-analysis of several scientific studies looking at the effectiveness of conversion therapy (e.g. attempting to "fix" the mind, instead of the body, of people with gender dysphoria, or attempt to change their sexual orientation). While that approach sounds like an excellent plan in abstraction, in practice the evidence shows that such therapy is not only ineffective, but harmful to patients, often worsening their condition. In medical circles, conversion therapy is viewed as pseudoscience and has been banned in 25 states and many countries, including Brazil, Germany, Spain, Australia, Canada, Chile, New Zealand, France, India, and several more. Also note that there is some crossover between conversion therapy targeting sexual orientation and gender dysphoria, though both appear to be driven by similar antiquated beliefs, biases, and ideologies.

TL;DR: science shows that treating gender dysphoria as some sort of perverted mental illness (as commonly portrayed in right-wing circles) doesn't work, but hormone treatment and gender reassignment are highly effective (evidence provided in my previous posts).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study

"3. What are the outcomes of conversion therapy?

There is no robust evidence to support claims that conversion therapy is effective at changing sexual orientation or gender identity.

Some of the largest studies report little to no reported change in sexual orientation, and reports of success are unpersuasive due to serious methodological limitations and sometimes major flaws in study designs.

No studies which examined the effectiveness of conversion therapy aimed at changing gender identity were identified during the search period (2000 to 2020).

Evidence of harm associated with conversion therapy outweighs reports of some benefits, such as social support and a sense of belonging. In addition, the reported benefits are common to most forms of talking therapy or support groups and could be provided by other, more affirmative, approaches that mitigate risks of harm.

There is an increasing amount of quantitative evidence that exposure to conversion therapy is statistically associated with poor mental health outcomes including suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts. This body of evidence is larger for sexual orientation change efforts. However, one recent study has also found that gender identity change efforts are associated with similar negative health outcomes.

Although we need to take care when making causal inferences, qualitative studies have found that people who have undergone conversion therapy attribute such feelings to the conversion therapy. The majority of people we interviewed in this study described experiencing conversion therapy as harmful, and reported self-harm and suicidal thoughts.

Plausible explanations for such harms include that conversion therapy makes internal conflicts worse rather than resolving them. It also reinforces the stigma associated with minority sexual orientations or gender identities."

 

[Foxi4]

I think most would agree though that trans athletes would have either a advantage or disadvantage in sports if they participated in a different gender's respective sport right? It's not about them being successful or not, its about maintaining fairness not unlike with doping and other drugs I would think. Injuries based on more strength/aggressiveness, or due to the opposite could be a possibility so why chance it at all? How to treat one another has always been about understanding, but how many people in the world don't agree with one another? Not just for transgenderism, but for every topic, controversial or not, just letting your thoughts or factions be known always will trigger someone. It's why the majority of the world just fits into their respective groups or blend in while around others, because trying to find people who agree with you can be rough especially depending on where you are in the world. Families have their right to protect each other from any idea they find harmful for their kids, only until their old enough(18 years of age for the US). After that they should be free to make their decisions.

Establishing a separate league would solve all of these problems. Women don’t participate in men’s sports and vice versa specifically because they have different body types with different capabilities. Stands to reason that in-betweeners deserve, and should be granted, their own sports arena to compete in.

 

[Wolfy]

Establishing a separate league would solve all of these problems. Women don’t participate in men’s sports and vice versa specifically because they have different body types with different capabilities. Stands to reason that in-betweeners deserve, and should be granted, their own sports arena to compete in.

I do agree, but like with many things its not a thing because companies don't think it'd be profitable enough. If it was a simple local sport or even coalition that set up tournaments for transpersons to compete then it'd be simple, but to have big cash prizes would need a large following, something to rival the NFL and it's mountain of fans which: watch the games which show ads, buy merchandise, buy tickets to games. And that's the problem, the world is built to create profit, and if it isn't then there isn't a reason for corporations to put any effort behind them.

 

[N7Kopper]

This represents the sort of ignorant, denialistic, attitude that drives anti-transgender laws and policies. It's no surprise that they tend to come from the political right, known for heightened disgust response (as seen above), and the denial of scientific facts. It's bad faith to act as an apologist for such groups/individuals and portray their views as scientifically-guided. It would be much more honest to simply admit that bigotry is the key motivator.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26481-left-or-right-wing-brains-disgust-response-tells-all/

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2023

https://www.them.us/story/transition-regret-percentage-overblown-study

"A new review of medical data has found even more proof that transgender youth know who they are — and that fears over transition regret are dramatically overblown by anti-trans activists.

The study, published October 20 in The Lancet, a prestigious and long-running medical journal, reviewed information from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria about trans patients who took puberty blockers before turning 18. Researchers examined the medical records of 720 patients at Amsterdam UMC’s Center for Expertise on Gender Dysphoria who had historically received at least three months of puberty blockers as minors, and attempted to determine how many of those patients had an active prescription for hormone replacement therapy on file as of December 31, 2018.

Of the entire cohort, 704 were found to have active HRT prescriptions at the end of the data collection period — a massive 98% of the patients analyzed.

As for the remaining 2%, researchers cautioned that the absence of data doesn’t mean they necessarily returned to identifying with their gender assigned at birth; most of those 16 had undergone some form of gonadectomy as part of their transition-related care, researchers noted, and may not realize they still need hormone treatment to avoid osteoporosis or other conditions. Others could be nonbinary and not desire further hormonal treatment, or may have been pressured into halting treatment by outside stressors, such as unaccepting family members.

The Amsterdam study’s findings affirm previous research into the persistence of gender identity among trans youth, and illustrate some of the challenges in identifying why a small number of people halt or reverse their medical transitions. Another study of over 300 young people from the Princeton Trans Youth Project published in May indicated that around 97.5% persisted in identifying as trans and/or nonbinary at the end of a five-year study period.

These studies increasingly demonstrate that the ongoing conservative freakout over gender identity and trans “desistance” is, at best, a massive overreaction. In an interview on liberal comedian Jon Stewart’s show The Problem earlier this month, Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge claimed that 98% of gender-dysphoric youth will eventually identify as cisgender — not only an “incredibly made-up” statistic, as Stewart noted, but per the Amsterdam and Princeton studies, precisely the inverse of what is true."

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2023

https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/full...t_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx

"Results:

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively. A total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS. Twenty-eight had minor and 34 had major regret based on Pfäfflin’s regret classification. The majority had clear regret based on Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis classification.

Conclusions:​

Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population."

Gish gallops like this are a common strategy. "Overwhelm common sense with countless peer-reviewed studies that have come to scientific consensus by stripping the titles from anyone who dared disagree." It works well on some people because to refute such lies, you would need hours - as James Lindsey demonstrates. The fact that it takes him so long shows the effectiveness of the strategy.

And then you pull the Orwell. Stoking feelings of discomfort with one's gender is "gender-affirmation" while providing a counternarrative is "conversion therapy". If transsexuality occurs naturally, there would be no need for "gender affirmation" to discover it. This can be observed easily by citing the massive spike in trans-identification while societal trans-acceptance drops like a stone thanks to all the queers (literal: Gail Rubin's Thinking Sex-style founding document queers) noncing kids.

I want to say right here: ONE detransitioner is TOO MANY. Nobody's running around getting shot up with insulin because he FELT diabetic. If things are being misdiagnosed, there is a PROBLEM. And if people are trying to call you a bigot for pointing that out, that PROVES the problem.

 

[Foxi4]

I do agree, but like with many things its not a thing because companies don't think it'd be profitable enough.

The WNBA exists and, let’s be real here, nobody watches it.

 

[TraderPatTX]

The WNBA exists and, let’s be real here, nobody watches it.

It really does seem that the stuff that certain people want to change, like movies and sports, can't even get decent ratings. They don't even watch what they claim to want to support on television, much less go buy tickets or merchandise. That tells me it's not about fairness or equity. It's about destroying what we already have because it is popular with cis straight white men.

It's sad that the only exposure the WNBA can get is to have one their star players get arrested in Russia and then people clown that the US trading her for a weapons dealer is the only WNBA trade people know or care about.

 

[RetroGen]

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/HRBodies/CEDAW/AccesstoJustice/IGLHRC.pdf

"By definition, LBT individuals defy gender stereotypes. The construction of gender stereotypes ultimately rests on the assumption that there are two opposite and mutually exclusive biological sexes. The assumption of heterosexuality is central to this gender binary. In a patriarchal context, some of the most serious transgressors are thus: a woman who renounces a man sexual partner or an individual assigned female at birth who renounces womanhood, thereby rejecting the patriarchal system and all other forms of male supervision and control, and an individual assigned male at birth who embraces womanhood, thereby abandoning privilege in favor of that which is deemed subservient, femininity.

The root of prejudice against LBT people is the belief that their derivations from culture, religion, and tradition is a choice. Consequently, those who arrest, beat and otherwise punish LBT people on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity believe they deserve to be punished."

The underlying assumption that gender identity and sexual orientation are a personal choice rather than a personal fact, is at the heart of the issue. People who are advocates for individual rights and freedoms ought to defend the rights of others to live with dignity and respect for their personal identity rather than demean, delegitimize, and pathologize, because they fail to fit their own narrow false dichotomies related to human sexuality.

 

[The Catboy]

Establishing a separate league would solve all of these problems. Women don’t participate in men’s sports and vice versa specifically because they have different body types with different capabilities. Stands to reason that in-betweeners deserve, and should be granted, their own sports arena to compete in.

It actually won't, separate but equal was shitty back then and it's shitty now. Equally, you act like trans people are just donating sports, but they aren't. This is just a means of separating trans people more just because they are trans.

 

[TraderPatTX]

It actually won't, separate but equal was shitty back then and it's shitty now. Equally, you act like trans people are just donating sports, but they aren't. This is just a means of separating trans people more just because they are trans.

Instead of separating men's and women's sports, we should separate XX and XY sports.

 

[KingVamp]

Ah yes, the small government party.

 

[MikaDubbz]

Imagine being denied anything at age 25 because you're not old enough yet. Like you can smoke, drink, fight our wars, rent a car (which oddly you have to be older to do than to own a car or a house or rent a house lol), watch X rated movies, own a house, own a business, be married, have a family.... but you're not 26 yet, so if you want any gender affirming care, you're much too young and completely incapable of of such a decision. I mean you're 25, you're still just a baby that can't think for yourself yet.

 

[TraderPatTX]

Imagine being denied anything at age 25 because you're not old enough yet. Like you can smoke, drink, fight our wars, rent a car (which oddly you have to be older to do than to own a car or a house or rent a house lol), watch X rated movies, own a house, own a business, be married, have a family.... but you're not 26 yet, so if you want any gender affirming care, you're much too young and completely incapable of of such a decision. I mean you're 25, you're still just a baby that can't think for yourself yet.

Imagine being allowed to stay on your parent's insurance at age 25. It's almost like 25 year olds can't take care of themselves or make their own decisions anymore.

Don't want to be treated like a child, stop acting like one. It's as simple as that.