About today’s Florida shooting

[TotalInsanity4]

people who obtain the guns illegaly

So, if the supply chain is cut off, how would people get them illegally?

 

[sarkwalvein]

That is what I meant regarding the "defence" fallacy, it is very egoistic and bad for society as a whole. People think that their capacity to have guns to defend themselves will make them safer (statistically wrong) and they don't care if it also puts everybody else in a greater risk.

I think it may be related to the importance of "individual rights" over "social rights" in the American mind, or how the individual and what an individual can do is seen as more important than its effects on society as a whole.

It is an idea I have, but I think it is related to how many people think that "they can reach the american dream", they can get rich, etc, and they decide to go along with things that would make it possible even if only for a few to become richer even if that means a lot of people will have a worse life because of that, even if it means they themselves will have a worse life, they may end up worse but people still think they will be one of the few that can reach that "dream", even when statistics are against them.

The same way, I think people believe that if they can have a gun, they can defend themselves, so if someone came to kill them, they will at least be able to counterattack. They are thinking individually, instead of thinking that if they can have guns, it means it is easier for everybody to have guns, and it makes it easier for way more people to come to kill them. The global result may be worse, but I believe people in America usually think in the local, individual scale, not in the global scale.

Of course all of this is prejudice.

 

[DeslotlCL]

I'm surprised by the amount of violent responses and people who actually support guns ownership and usage in this thread. Holy shit, i really don't want to sound mean or insult you, but if you support violence in any of its forms you have a little problem in your mind.

 

[Deleted User]

So, if the supply chain is cut off, how would people get them illegally?

blackmarket imports
stealing from ex military
stealing from officers

the people at the school including securety guards were upset that they had nothing to defend themselves with
they couldve ended it in seconds if the guards had guns

 

[spinal_cord]

people who obtain the guns illegaly

I don't need a gun to protect myself against people who illegal obtain guns. Guess why...

 

[BlueFox gui]

I don't need a gun to protect myself against people who illegal obtain guns. Guess why...

u hav UR HANDS HAHA!

 

[Deleted User]

I don't need a gun to protect myself against people who illegal obtain guns. Guess why...

because you already have a bullet in your head

 

[BlueFox gui]

nooo he has his hands

 

[the_randomizer]

I'm surprised by the amount of violent responses and people who actually support guns ownership and usage in this thread. Holy shit, i really don't want to sound mean or insult you, but if you support violence in any of its forms you have a little problem in your mind.

So do you expect people to be defenseless and have no means of protecting against violent criminals? Okay. Sounds good to me.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

blackmarket imports

Difficult to do that if no guns whatsoever are allowed into the country. You'd have to sneak it in with something else, which is a lot more of a hassle with something as bulky with a gun, as opposed to something like drugs

stealing from ex military

Can't do that effectively if none of the military are allowed to keep ammunition in any serious quantity at home, like in Sweden I believe. (Plus, you've just outlined a pretty big flaw in the whole "home defense" argument you've been presenting, anyway)

stealing from officers

I'm confused, how would someone be able to do that? According to you, an innocent person with a gun should be able to stop home invasions or street robberies if they can shoot the criminal. How would the robber get the gun that they're using to defend themselves? (rhetorical, but feel free to answer anyway)

 

[spinal_cord]

One day Americans might love their children more than they love their guns. But I can't see it happening any time soon.

 

[SirNapkin1334]

My friend @Eix said that there were rumors going around his school saying that there was going to be a shooting on Valentine's Day. Well, it wasn't his school that had the shooting, but one 50 miles away. That's fucking creepy.

 

[Deleted User]

Difficult to do that if no guns whatsoever are allowed into the country. You'd have to sneak it in with something else, which is a lot more of a hassle with something as bulky with a gun, as opposed to something like drugs

Can't do that effectively if none of the military are allowed to keep ammunition in any serious quantity at home, like in Sweden I believe. (Plus, you've just outlined a pretty big flaw in the whole "home defense" argument you've been presenting, anyway)

I'm confused, how would someone be able to do that? According to you, an innocent person with a gun should be able to stop home invasions or street robberies if they can shoot the criminal. How would the robber get the gun that they're using to defend themselves? (rhetorical, but feel free to answer anyway)

my stepdad is exmilitary
we have enough ammo and guns (even fucking grenades) to start a small war
we make our bullets aswell as buy
so you can just make your own bullets once you reach the limit
its fairly easy to make them

also it would be fairly easy to steal a gun from an officer
you just need to trick one into coming to your house and grab a kitchen knife
youve just obtained
body armour
weapon
ammo
taser
car
2 star wanted level in gta (i just needed to put this in here)

now your set to go on a rampage before the police can get you

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

My friend @Eix said that there were rumors going around his school saying that there was going to be a shooting on Valentine's Day. Well, it wasn't his school that had the shooting, but one 50 miles away. That's fucking creepy.

yeah
for almost a month there were rumors going around
i didnt know they were about a shooting until a week ago

 

[DeslotlCL]

So do you expect people to be defenseless and have no means of protecting against violent criminals? Okay. Sounds good to me.

One thing is defend yourself, and other is talking openly about hurt people, like for example, how both of you and blue fox were threatening each other or how other users talk bullshit about killing others with other means. You can't say that's normsl behavior or caring about the others, at all.

 

[SirNapkin1334]

2 star wanted level in gta

While I was reading that, I immediately thought of that, and then you said it. Well done.

 

[the_randomizer]

One thing is defend yourself, and other is talking openly about hurt people, like for example, how both of you and blue fox were threatening each other or how other users talk bullshit about killing others with other means. You can't say that's normsl behavior or caring about the others, at all.

Oh so I should just take it up the tailpipe and say, "Please sir, may I have another?"

 

[SirNapkin1334]

We are having a happy valentines thread and a depressing school shooting thread showing up in my alerts at the same time. xD

 

[sarkwalvein]

blackmarket imports
stealing from ex military
stealing from officers

the people at the school including securety guards were upset that they had nothing to defend themselves with
they couldve ended it in seconds if the guards had guns

But the defence argument is a fallacy, as I explained above. And it is so because not only you obtain guns, but everybody else also.
You will only become more and more defenceless, guns are way too good for offence, and not so good as a deterrent specially against crazy people.

And also regarding the black market, of course it is a slow process that you have to go through to heal the system.

Yeah, that makes the situation quite hard. But not impossible.
It will only enable the pretext of "bad people still have guns, I need them to defend myself", but if you crush the naysayers for long enough the situation should heal.

Ban guns, seize guns, perform a strict control of the black market, and after a long time you won't have 20 guns per Citizen lying around in the streets. Sure it sounds a little dictatorial, but strictness is needed under harsh circumstances.

Sure he will reply that he could've gotten it in the black market, or 3d print it, or whatever.
The saying goes "there are none so blind as those who will not see".
It is simple and statistical, if there are less guns, it is harder to get one, and the number of incidents is reduced.
Of course they will not go down to zero, but they will be strongly reduced, simply because it is hard.

But well, they say "it is still possible", and that's all they need to see, it's like rocket science and fireworks are the same for them.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

my stepdad is exmilitary
we have enough ammo and guns (even fucking grenades) to start a small war
we make our bullets aswell as buy
so you can just make your own bullets once you reach the limit
its fairly easy to make them

So you would break the law just... because?... All to put more people at risk??

also it would be fairly easy to steal a gun from an officer
you just need to trick one into coming to your house and grab a kitchen knife
youve just obtained
body armour
weapon
ammo
taser
car
2 star wanted level in gta (i just needed to put this in here)

now your set to go on a rampage before the police can get you

I'm having trouble trying to get past the mental gymnastics required to get past the fact that you keep saying that firearms are the only real option for self-defense, but then you go on to say that an armed officer could be taken down by a kitchen knife. All I'm really seeing here is that regardless of how armed you are, someone that's armed (not necessarily with a firearm!) and intent on committing a crime is going to do it anyway

The difference between a crime committed with a firearm and one without is that one of them is infinitely more lethal in terms of potential body count

 

[AkikoKumagara]

A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if any of you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.

I'd argue the issue is that of security. Why was an expelled student wandering the premises freely? The point of expulsion is to keep one off the premises. It kind of undermines the whole purpose if no one is enforcing safety of the students. I'm not going to get into the gun debate at all, but there needs to be some manner of security in all US high schools (perhaps even all schools in general), because this is far too common at this point.