Take-Two takes legal action against reverse engineered re3 & reVC projects

header-grand-theft-auto-gta-iii-vice-city-codigo-ingenieria-inversa-reclamo-dmca-rechazado.jpg

Back in February 19th, 2021, Take-Two sent DMCA notices to the reverse engineered projects re3 and reVC, (hosted on GitHub). After the takedowns, the project leaders filed a counter-claim, effectively restoring the projects and their whole repositories.

Today, September 2nd, 2021, Take-Two has taken legal action in the state of California, USA, claiming the projects and whole repositories are infringing on the copyrights of their games, Grad Theft Auto III & Grand Theft Auto: Vice City.
Not only is Take-Two suing the main repositories, but also against forks and derivative work (and the devs behind them) that sent the counter-claim back in February, like the PS Vita & Nintendo Switch forks.

The resolution of this case might be one of the biggest legal battles of recent years in terms of gaming, homebrew, hacking and reverse engineering, as other projects that have flourished under reverse engineered premises could be affected in the event of Take-Two winning the case.

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linuxares

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Clearly it does contain copyright code



The argument will come down to whether it's fair use to do it or not.



Both are frameworks that allow you to create/run content, there is no legal difference between them.

If it's legally ok to decompile an "engine" and distribute it, then it's legally ok to do the same with an os.

So far he is just looking at how it talks. Nothing wrong with that.

Well yes, what do you think Dosbox and ReactOS is? Reversed Engines! Where they built around it. Capturing the calls for example a game does, and re-direct it to their engine instead. It's literally how emulation works.
 

FAST6191

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Rebuilding from decompiled assembly code is really not the same as ctrl+c, ctrl+v from the original source.
That's pretty much the definition of analyzing what the compiled binary does and recreating it.
And even then, the code derived from decompilation can, and usually will, be quite different from the original source code.
Even more so if written in a different language.

I, OTOH, don't see how they can win this.

But TBH I don't really care about laws and regulations.
What matters to me is the underlying principles, and whether they are valid in the first place.
Good luck to the re guys.

So if I disassemble something, optimise one routine, reassemble it/post my modded disassembly I am free and clear? If not then two routines? Three? You reckon rewriting code in another language, for the sake of argument a whole equivalent output setup rather than an emulation of the previously seen instructions, suddenly makes me the new creator of a work? Do we have to have some kind of test a la the sample tests in music copyright discussions?
Scanning in 10000 book pages is a tedious process, does not mean I can turn around and distribute it.
I can't cover a song with my own instruments, microphone, recording time and go from there without giving some consideration to the songwriter or copyright holder thereof if a different entity. I don't think we can really call this code a parody either.
Ditto scanning in however many frames for a film is tedious. Does not mean I own the rights to the underlying film (and any secondary distribution for soundtrack using other works).

Copyright law in general also tends to not care about exact (though having exact is a consideration) as much as does it represent unfair competition for the original work; at no point did the makers of these projects having to figure out car physics, walk speeds, reaction times for gunplay, draw distance limitations, how not to make the lighting as they copied it all from Rockstar's efforts. How that is anything but basic unfair competition by means of a derived work I do not know.

Underlying principles, fundamental rights, what is necessary for things to actually keep ticking are great things to look to as well. Don't see how we can allow people to take code covered by copyright, disassemble, tweak a few things and have them be able to release it (even for free and without intention of remuneration*) and not have the entire industry collapse. It is the entire thing it is based upon, and up until more recently when decompilers became a more practical concept (though even then still needing skilled operators) the whole thing with compilation being considered as a one way affair posing the practical limit to it as well.

*really quite hard to separate in these days of advertising funded websites, crowdfunding, ebegging, donations and whatnot.

The object of the copyright isn't the video format or representation, it's the video itself.
Games are code by definition. The code itself is copyrighted, along with the assets.

By your definition, nothing could ever be Reverse-engineered.
That would be an example of the competition thing being similar enough. Just because I downscaled the 4k blu to SD does not mean I suddenly own the film.

On reverse engineering being allowed then we do have to ponder laws (whether they are implicit or explicit, that being if the law says nothing on the matter then consider it OK vs if the law says this is not OK then it is not OK).
Here though there are some generally accepted paths and reasons to allow it. As this is not in the traditional clean room regime (not even close) then as we are not concerned with whether Rockstar stole the code from someone, some kind of accessibility, security purposes, probably not going to reach a criticism/review, education is likely not on the cards for this, parody would also be a struggle as mentioned above, fixing broken DRM (still an actively maintained game it seems), museum work (or one of the various things the librarian gets to add to DMCA reviews every few years, assuming they even apply to games which many things the game industry fights tooth and nail to prevent from applying to them), making cheats in single player games (multiplayer can be tricky here) we are left with interoperability of code between platforms, and that generally considered as being to limited to figuring out why my emulator is not working, what APIs it is using or similar, not posting wholesale recreations of every aspect of the code to the public.
 

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I must have read a different lawsuit.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.384429/gov.uscourts.cand.384429.1.0.pdf

24. Take-Two is informed and believes, and on that basis alleges, that by combining the software contained in the re3 GitHub Repositories (or the compiled, installable build linked to in the Repositories) with certain pre-existing assets and artwork from the Games, members of the public will possess, and can play, complete versions of the Games. These derivative versions of Case 3:21-cv-06831-TSH Document 1 Filed 09/02/21 Page 7 of 17 Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 13417517.2 8 CASE NO. 3:21-cv-6831 COMPLAINT the Games are virtually identical to the original Games in function, appearance, and gameplay, except for certain variations and modifications added by Defendants. Thus, a player in possession of Defendants’ derivative version of the Games can experience the exact same sights, sounds, story, setting, dialog, and other creative content as they would experience in Take-Two’s original version of the Games.


I don't see how they are lying and the defendants admit it on twitter/github/youtube.

23. According to Defendants, the re3 GitHub Repositories purportedly contain “the
fully reversed source code for GTA III... and GTA [Vice City].” More specifically, via the re3
GitHub Repositories, Defendants are distributing to the public dozens, if not hundreds, of
derivative source code files for the Games. These source code files not only contain the derivative
software code that enables the Games to run on a player’s computer, but also contain Take-Two’s
original digital content such as text, character dialog, and certain game assets. Additionally, the
re3 GitHub Repositories include links to locations where members of the public can download a
complete, installable build of the re3 and reVC software.

There's also the mentioning of the additional distributed assets being copyrighted, such as text, character dialog, and certain game assets.
 

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linuxares

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smf

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That isn't copy-paste... I checked his video compared to this. IDA shows psudeocode = Guessing

https://reverseengineering.stackexc...49/how-to-obtain-x86-64-pseudocode-in-ida-pro

For the purpose of copyright law, copying code out of an ida window and then changing it to compile is still copying.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Who said what about lying?

Just pointed out some of the filed complaints, which seem to be true in this case.

Ah, yes. it was EvilJagaGenius.

This brings the CSE2 decompilation project to mind, which still isn't (officially) available. I agree this is certainly an important case, almost all video game preservation depends on reverse engineering in some form. It doesn't seem like Take-Two has a lot of legal ground to stand on here, alongside straight-up lying in their accusations... it seems they have little more ground than Nicalis had, which is to say none. Still, I'm hoping the case is treated fairly, the outcome decided based on law, not money.

That the reverse-engineered binaries contain game assets. That's pretty obviously false.

MrHuu mentioned it earlier.
 

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I haven't checked if it matches the original text, but there is some text in there

https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3/b...47ea867c15a25e411d641d8/utils/gxt/english.txt

Are you sure they are lying?
Not entirely sure as I don't own any GTA games, but not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. As said before, the RE binaries need the original data files to run and this claim seems to be in direct conflict with that fact. I assume the lawyers are likely to play it up as if you can download a complete copy of GTA from the Github repo.
 

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I assume the lawyers are likely to play it up as if you can download a complete copy of GTA from the Github repo.

You can clearly see in the lawsuit that they don't do that.

Your opinion seems based on passion and feeling rather than facts, which the law works on.
 

FAST6191

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There's also the mentioning of the additional distributed assets being copyrighted, such as text, character dialog, and certain game assets.
Edit. Whole thing seemed to happen while I was poking around repos. Will leave it for now.
And you are claiming that is a lie?

That would seem like something that is reasonably easy to check for (though sadly we don't appear to have been provided with locations) and I can not begin to count the amount of times devs have opted for some kind for incbin and having an asset in the binary rather than spinning it off as an external assets as that takes effort. If the reverse engineering project slipped up and included a few of those (as opposed to adding some kind of line to a makefile to rip the non code assets from the binary) then that would stand to reason.
Seems a minor aspect of the case though compared to the main question of whether this is some kind of acceptable use/fair use workaround for what is otherwise derived work.

I had a quick look myself
https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3/b...58849feb29d3f2eba/gamefiles/TEXT/american.gxt
Now looks like a fork so might not have been there in the original. However opening that in a hex editor this is but a small sample of what greeted me
Claude----------------------~g~Hey! Get back in the vehicle!~g~You need some wheels for this job!~g~You need a boat for this job!~g~Don't go solo, keep your posse together!~g~Don't split up, keep the group together!~g~You've dropped your main man, go back and get 8-Ball!~g~Lose Misty and Luigi will lose your face! Go and get her!~g~One of the girls is AWOL, Go back and round her up!~g~You left your honor with the Yakuza Kanbu. You must protect him!~g~An extra gun could be useful. Go back and pick up your contact!~g~Protection means just that -Protect the Old Oriental Gentleman!~g~You want the word on the street? Go see the contact!Press the ~h~/ button~w~ when running to ~h~sprint.You can only sprint for short periods before becoming tired.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_ACCELERATE~ button~w~ to ~h~accelerate.Push the~h~ right analog stick~w~ up to ~h~accelerate.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_BRAKE~ button~w~ to ~h~brake~w~, or to ~h~reverse~w~ if the vehicle has stopped.Pull the ~h~right analog stick~w~ back to ~h~brake~w~, or to ~h~reverse~w~ if the vehicle has stopped.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_HANDBRAKE~ button ~w~to apply the vehicle's ~h~handbrake.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_HANDBRAKE~ button ~w~to apply the vehicle's ~h~handbrake.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_HANDBRAKE~ button ~w~to apply the vehicle's ~h~handbrake.Press and hold the~h~ ~k~~PED_LOCK_TARGET~ button ~w~to ~h~target~w~ with the sniper rifle.Press and hold the~h~ ~k~~PED_LOCK_TARGET~ button ~w~to ~h~target ~w~with the sniper rifle.Press the~h~ ~k~~PED_SNIPER_ZOOM_IN~ button ~w~to ~h~zoom in ~w~with the rifle and the~h~ ~k~~PED_SNIPER_ZOOM_OUT~ button ~w~to ~h~zoom out ~w~again.Press the~h~ ~k~~PED_FIREWEAPON~ button ~w~to ~h~fire~w~ the sniper rifle.This badge indicates you have a police wanted level.The more badges the higher your wanted level.Sometimes you may need to use pathways not shown on the radar.This is a timed mission, you must complete it before the timer counts down to zero.~r~Misty is morgue-meat!~g~Get out of the vehicle!Drive the vehicle into the garage, then walk outside.~g~Shake the cops and lose your wanted level!~g~They ain't sardines! Get some wheels with enough seats.~g~You've junked your wheels re

Looks like a bunch of assets to me, and well within copyrightable status rather than some kind of "new game, load game, save game, options, exit" type obvious deal. The models folder might even have some artwork too, possibly some fonts as well, but I can't decode that at this point.
 
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linuxares

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For the purpose of copyright law, copying code out of an ida window and then changing it to compile is still copying.
No, no it's not. It's literally how reverse engineering works. You decompile it, see what it do. And write your own...
Just because my KIA looks like Volvo, doesn't mean it's a Volvo. It's still a Kia.
I give up. You're just repeating yourself without proper rebuttals to what I say and ask for.

I don't see Adobe suing people left and right that can read the PSD format? For example GIMP. Someone have reversed it, built code to make it work. Even if it's very basic! Yet GIMP still have PSD support.
 

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Nobody can, otherwise appeals courts wouldn't exist. But if T2 lose because they make a poor case or the court is confused about what they are seeing, then T2 win at appeal. No software company would want T2 to lose, so there will be plenty of support for them.

Microsoft and apple will be very willing to prevent legal decompilation of windows/ios (which are basically "engines").

Different software companies view intellectual property concerns very differently, so I wouldn't generalize about what all software companies want.

The comparison of GTA to an OS is a bit of stretch, but what exactly has MS done to prevent legal decompilation of their software? They have in the past been more aggressive about source code leaks (which is not the same thing). More recently MS has been much more embracing of open source software and they've published the source of .Net and many windows libraries for a long time. Developers also regularly decompile the libraries, and MS doesn't try to prevent that.

https://github.com/microsoft
https://referencesource.microsoft.com/

Yes, they do not publish their core OS source code, buy I am unaware of any legal actions they've brought to prevent someone from decompiling, nor would it serve much of a purpose. I seriously doubt that MS cares about this case at all mostly because it won't have any real impact on them one way or the other and they've got plenty of other things to worry about.

Anyway, I do agree with you that Take Two has a much stronger case here than most other posters seem to think, but copying the output of a decompiled software is different than copying source. While decompiling and copying code can be a copyright violation it is not 100% guaranteed to be.
 

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No, no it's not. It's literally how reverse engineering works. You decompile it, see what it do. And write your own...

No, that isn't reverse engineering. You can reverse engineer something without writing equivalent code.

You're describing decompiling, which you're not allowed to share the result of publicly.

In the case of Phoenix writing their own BIOS that was compatible with IBM's, they had two separate teams of people. One team looked at the code and wrote documentation of it. The second then took that specification and wrote the code.

Clearly that isn't what happened here.

I don't see Adobe suing people left and right that can read the PSD format? For example GIMP. Someone have reversed it, built code to make it work. Even if it's very basic! Yet GIMP still have PSD support.

They probably reverse engineered the format by editing files, clicking save & looking at them in a hex viewer, not decompiling the binary.

The reason why we're not progressing here isn't me.
 
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linuxares

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The reason why we're not progressing here isn't me.
You keep telling yourself that. To me it sounds more you don't know what reverse engineering is. Anyways, out of thread for now!

Det är fredag mina bekanta!
 

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And you are claiming that is a lie?

That would seem like something that is reasonably easy to check for (though sadly we don't appear to have been provided with locations) and I can not begin to count the amount of times devs have opted for some kind for incbin and having an asset in the binary rather than spinning it off as an external assets as that takes effort. If the reverse engineering project slipped up and included a few of those (as opposed to adding some kind of line to a makefile to rip the non code assets from the binary) then that would stand to reason.
Seems a minor aspect of the case though compared to the main question of whether this is some kind of acceptable use/fair use workaround for what is otherwise derived work.

I had a quick look myself
https://github.com/GTAmodding/re3/b...58849feb29d3f2eba/gamefiles/TEXT/american.gxt
Now looks like a fork so might not have been there in the original. However opening that in a hex editor this is but a small sample of what greeted me
Code:
Claude----------------------~g~Hey! Get back in the vehicle!~g~You need some wheels for this job!~g~You need a boat for this job!~g~Don't go solo, keep your posse together!~g~Don't split up, keep the group together!~g~You've dropped your main man, go back and get 8-Ball!~g~Lose Misty and Luigi will lose your face! Go and get her!~g~One of the girls is AWOL, Go back and round her up!~g~You left your honor with the Yakuza Kanbu. You must protect him!~g~An extra gun could be useful. Go back and pick up your contact!~g~Protection means just that -Protect the Old Oriental Gentleman!~g~You want the word on the street? Go see the contact!Press the ~h~/ button~w~ when running to ~h~sprint.You can only sprint for short periods before becoming tired.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_ACCELERATE~ button~w~ to ~h~accelerate.Push the~h~ right analog stick~w~ up to ~h~accelerate.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_BRAKE~ button~w~ to ~h~brake~w~, or to ~h~reverse~w~ if the vehicle has stopped.Pull the ~h~right analog stick~w~ back to ~h~brake~w~, or to ~h~reverse~w~ if the vehicle has stopped.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_HANDBRAKE~ button ~w~to apply the vehicle's ~h~handbrake.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_HANDBRAKE~ button ~w~to apply the vehicle's ~h~handbrake.Press the~h~ ~k~~VEHICLE_HANDBRAKE~ button ~w~to apply the vehicle's ~h~handbrake.Press and hold the~h~ ~k~~PED_LOCK_TARGET~ button ~w~to ~h~target~w~ with the sniper rifle.Press and hold the~h~ ~k~~PED_LOCK_TARGET~ button ~w~to ~h~target ~w~with the sniper rifle.Press the~h~ ~k~~PED_SNIPER_ZOOM_IN~ button ~w~to ~h~zoom in ~w~with the rifle and the~h~ ~k~~PED_SNIPER_ZOOM_OUT~ button ~w~to ~h~zoom out ~w~again.Press the~h~ ~k~~PED_FIREWEAPON~ button ~w~to ~h~fire~w~ the sniper rifle.This badge indicates you have a police wanted level.The more badges the higher your wanted level.Sometimes you may need to use pathways not shown on the radar.This is a timed mission, you must complete it before the timer counts down to zero.~r~Misty is morgue-meat!~g~Get out of the vehicle!Drive the vehicle into the garage, then walk outside.~g~Shake the cops and lose your wanted level!~g~They ain't sardines! Get some wheels with enough seats.~g~You've junked your wheels re

Looks like a bunch of assets to me, and well within copyrightable status rather than some kind of "new game, load game, save game, options, exit" type obvious deal. The models folder might even have some artwork too, possibly some fonts as well, but I can't decode that at this point.

You must have mistaken me with someone else.
I just clarified my quote referenced by someone.

Never mentioned anyone lying, in fact, reading the complaints they have a lot of valid points.
Not all of them, but most are.

But you're absolutely right.

The only ones lying here are the ones saying they gonna ditch all their Nintendo devices.
 
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smf

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You keep telling yourself that. To me it sounds more you don't know what reverse engineering is. Anyways, out of thread for now!

Yes, I know what reverse engineering is. I've been doing it for a very long time and hardly ever did it involve writing code that behaved the same as code I was studying.

Maybe you should re-evaluate your own bias.

Not all of them, but most are.

What claims don't you think are valid?

Anyway, I do agree with you that Take Two has a much stronger case here than most other posters seem to think, but copying the output of a decompiled software is different than copying source. While decompiling and copying code can be a copyright violation it is not 100% guaranteed to be.

It's different from a technical perspective, but in court they would argue that it's equivalent. This happens a lot because laws are written ahead of time and don't anticipate future technological changes.

Even copying out of source code isn't guaranteed to be a copyright violation, but I don't see how you could avoid a violating copying either all of the source code or all of a decompiled binary.

If translating binary to source removed the copyright, then don't you think translating from source to binary would too?

Can we just decompile any game engine and then use it ourselves commercially?

I think Microsoft would be interested in any one decompiling their code, which is why https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS uses a clean room technique
 
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MrHuu

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What claims don't you think are valid?

Paragraph 4:
By copying, adapting, and distributing derivative and original source code for the
Games, Defendants have made the Games fully and freely available to the public,..

Copying, adapting, and distributing derivative and original source code does NOT fully and freely make the game available to public.
 

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