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13 Russians, 3 businesses indicted by Mueller/Rosenstein in connection to Trump

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Taleweaver

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Wait, I thought that was the result of the government forcing banks to give people loans? NtM, but no sane bank would've allowed that kind of behavior under normal circumstances, but due to government handouts... This is all crony capitalism man.
*sigh*

This is why the government should've sued the boards of directors of large banks. It would've hurted society, but in the long run you get this shit: people believing roughly the opposite of reality. :(

@TerribleTy27 : truth is that up to 2008, the government was lacking. All intelligence concerning money went to work in the bank industry, leaving the government at best naive but arguably an accessory to what happened. You see, up to about the eighties, saving banks and insurance were strictly separated. Stocks, bonds and all that stuff was something for adventurers and people that really knew what they were doing. And what did they know? Among others that houses were a safe investment, and that these houses were worth a lot of money. Slowly but steady, the laws that separated the large population (that just had a house and a mortgage on it) from the investors blurred. Bankers were paid more by selling investments than giving proper economic advice, so they did exactly that. The 2008 crisis went much deeper than that, but I think most governments assumed this was about as bad as it was going to get. Lemme explain...

To start with, I've got to tackle that "no sane bank would've allowed that kind of behavior" you mention (referring to the loans to people that had little to no chance to pay it off). A bystander's opinion would be that it is a bad loan because everybody seemingly loses. But from a bank's perspective, their stance is THAT THEY CANNOT LOSE(1)
Simple example: take a house that costs 100'000 dollars. I'm an average joe who barely makes 500 dollars a month (excluding my average costs) on interim basis and has, say, 5000 dollars in savings. Chances of me paying of that debt is pretty low, because I haven't been able to scrape more money together. I shouldn't be able to loan 95'000 dollars. But to a bank, this is different. Their train of thought is that either I pull off the unlikely and pay off the debt (option A), or somewhere down the road something happens (loss of job, needing extra cash, ...) that causes me to become unable to pay (that's option B).
Option A) is pretty straightforward: at the end of the term, I will have payed back that money and interest (say...10'000 dollar interest, so total payback: 105'000 dollars, over 20 to 30 years). The bank obviously wins.
For option B), you've got to understand what 'mortgage' really means. It means that whenever you can't pay the bank, they can legally sell the house and claim their money back that way. So...say after one year of paying 500 dollars a month, I cannot pay any further because I lost my job and can't get another. I will have payed the bank 12*500=6000 dollars, so I still owe them 99'000 dollars(2). I can no longer pay, so the house gets sold. Assuming housing prices constantly rise, it gets sold for 101'000. The bank takes it's 99'000 dollars and I get the remains (2000 dollars...so basically I will have lost 4000 dollars). Again: the bank wins.

And that's why "normal circumstances" mean that whenever someone (ANYONE!!!) wants a loan, the bank granted it. Either option A or option B: they get their money.

That is, of course, with that assumption that housing prices constantly rise. That assumption is a calculated risk. Then banks started getting creative. ONE house can rise or lower in price, they argued, but on average, houses will always rise in price. So when we bundle ten or hundred of those loans together, then that bundle is guaranteed to make money in the end (again: either option A or option B will garantee money back). Those things were what CDO's CFO's, swaps and even more strange terms were invented and traded. Banks treated these bundles as solid foundations; as if 'owning' a bunch of people paying you back loans was equally worthy as owning money itself.

The way I see the housing crisis is best described as "the wake-up call that houses CAN lower in value". And not just a few houses, but pretty much worldwide. That's why banks (who simply shouldn't be allowed to loan out money that they don't have) suddenly faced a huge-ass wave of problems. Not because "government forced banks to give people loans" (I haven't followed US news at that time, but this is honestly the very first thing I've seen, and it totally mismatches everything I've read on the topic), but because the board of directors thought they had found a way to print money.




(1): I'm currently buying my second house in my life, so unfortunately, this isn't a hypothetical position for me
(2): it's actually a bit more complex than that because you pay most of the interests first and there are file costs, but let's keep things simple for now.
 
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*sigh*

This is why the government should've sued the boards of directors of large banks. It would've hurted society, but in the long run you get this shit: people believing roughly the opposite of reality. :(

@TerribleTy27 : truth is that up to 2008, the government was lacking. All intelligence concerning money went to work in the bank industry, leaving the government at best naive but arguably an accessory to what happened. You see, up to about the eighties, saving banks and insurance were strictly separated. Stocks, bonds and all that stuff was something for adventurers and people that really knew what they were doing. And what did they know? Among others that houses were a safe investment, and that these houses were worth a lot of money. Slowly but steady, the laws that separated the large population (that just had a house and a mortgage on it) from the investors blurred. Bankers were paid more by selling investments than giving proper economic advice, so they did exactly that. The 2008 crisis went much deeper than that, but I think most governments assumed this was about as bad as it was going to get. Lemme explain...

To start with, I've got to tackle that "no sane bank would've allowed that kind of behavior" you mention (referring to the loans to people that had little to no chance to pay it off). A bystander's opinion would be that it is a bad loan because everybody seemingly loses. But from a bank's perspective, their stance is THAT THEY CANNOT LOSE(1)
Simple example: take a house that costs 100'000 dollars. I'm an average joe who barely makes 500 dollars a month (excluding my average costs) on interim basis and has, say, 5000 dollars in savings. Chances of me paying of that debt is pretty low, because I haven't been able to scrape more money together. I shouldn't be able to loan 95'000 dollars. But to a bank, this is different. Their train of thought is that either I pull off the unlikely and pay off the debt (option A), or somewhere down the road something happens (loss of job, needing extra cash, ...) that causes me to become unable to pay (that's option B).
Option A) is pretty straightforward: at the end of the term, I will have payed back that money and interest (say...10'000 dollar interest, so total payback: 105'000 dollars, over 20 to 30 years). The bank obviously wins.
For option B), you've got to understand what 'mortgage' really means. It means that whenever you can't pay the bank, they can legally sell the house and claim their money back that way. So...say after one year of paying 500 dollars a month, I cannot pay any further because I lost my job and can't get another. I will have payed the bank 12*500=6000 dollars, so I still owe them 99'000 dollars(2). I can no longer pay, so the house gets sold. Assuming housing prices constantly rise, it gets sold for 101'000. The bank takes it's 99'000 dollars and I get the remains (2000 dollars...so basically I will have lost 4000 dollars). Again: the bank wins.

And that's why "normal circumstances" mean that whenever someone (ANYONE!!!) wants a loan, the bank granted it. Either option A or option B: they get their money.

That is, of course, with that assumption that housing prices constantly rise. That assumption is a calculated risk. Then banks started getting creative. ONE house can rise or lower in price, they argued, but on average, houses will always rise in price. So when we bundle ten or hundred of those loans together, then that bundle is guaranteed to make money in the end (again: either option A or option B will garantee money back). Those things were what CDO's CFO's, swaps and even more strange terms were invented and traded. Banks treated these bundles as solid foundations; as if 'owning' a bunch of people paying you back loans was equally worthy as owning money itself.

The way I see the housing crisis is best described as "the wake-up call that houses CAN lower in value". And not just a few houses, but pretty much worldwide. That's why banks (who simply shouldn't be allowed to loan out money that they don't have) suddenly faced a huge-ass wave of problems. Not because "government forced banks to give people loans" (I haven't followed US news at that time, but this is honestly the very first thing I've seen, and it totally mismatches everything I've read on the topic), but because the board of directors thought they had found a way to print money.




(1): I'm currently buying my second house in my life, so unfortunately, this isn't a hypothetical position for me
(2): it's actually a bit more complex than that because you pay most of the interests first and there are file costs, but let's keep things simple for now.

Mate, you're essentially arguing that people are so stupid and gullible that the banks can do whatever they can. Espescially now that the housing crisis is over with, everyone's wisened up and is actually doing their research. Honestly, I think the economy has actually toughened up overall, and everyone came out a lot smarter.

Option C: Everyone avoids bad bank loans like the plague.
 

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Mate, you're essentially arguing that people are so stupid and gullible that the banks can do whatever they can. Espescially now that the housing crisis is over with, everyone's wisened up and is actually doing their research. Honestly, I think the economy has actually toughened up overall, and everyone came out a lot smarter.

Option C: Everyone avoids bad bank loans like the plague.
Wisened up?
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bespoke-cdo.asp
That's basically the same CDO that caused all sorts of people to lose their pensions and turned a mortgage crisis into an economic crash. Yes, it was rebranded and is being sold again. Invest away ...

https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/dodd-frank-reform-easier-to-get-mortgage/
It shouldn't be easy to get a mortgage. You should work hard and earn it through proper credit history, and the banks shouldn't be bailed out when they issue loans to people who shouldn't qualify. Again, they know that they're "too big to fail." They have insurance against losing gambles. Taxpayers.
 
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It shouldn't be easy to get a mortgage. You should work hard and earn it through proper credit history, and the banks shouldn't be bailed out when they issue loans to people who shouldn't qualify. Again, they know that they're "too big to fail." They have insurance against losing gambles. Taxpayers.

Wait. So you agree with me? I'm unsure of your point here.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bespoke-cdo.asp
That's basically the same CDO that caused all sorts of people to lose their pensions and turned a mortgage crisis into an economic crash. Yes, it was rebranded and is being sold again. Invest away ...
again, not sure of your point here. There are always going to be stupid people falling for easy scams. But it's not like we're gonna get yet another housing crisis.
 

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Mate, you're essentially arguing that people are so stupid and gullible that the banks can do whatever they can. Espescially now that the housing crisis is over with, everyone's wisened up and is actually doing their research. Honestly, I think the economy has actually toughened up overall, and everyone came out a lot smarter.

Option C: Everyone avoids bad bank loans like the plague.
Hmm...I wouldn't call it the essence of my post, but I certainly don't disagree: people ARE so stupid and gullible that the banks can do whatever they can. Do you think I want to get in my current situation of having to pay off two mortgages(1)? I honestly don't. I didn't want the mortgage to begin with, but truth is that I (or a large part of the population) simply cannot afford a house without a loan.

Both my loans were after the crisis. Banks certainly put more requirements when it comes to loans (like having to have a larger starting capital), but the measurements that are taken in effect AFTERWARDS are no excuse for the excesses that happened LEADING UP TO the crisis. Especially when the lessons are being forgotten or twisted so another party gets pointed as the blamed. I don't want to sound rude, but your previous post in this thread didn't led me to believe that "everyone came out a lot smarter". :(


(1): okay, I admit: my plan is to rent out my current appartment and pay off the first mortgage that way. Still...I'm not too fond of the idea
 

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The point is yes, yes we are. Corrupt people in the investment arena will create and exploit loopholes (the above are examples of the process happening) for financial gain and all those tax dollars will pay for it, including your kids.

Edit: If people aren't as stupid as I've claimed, explain the rise of ridiculous monoliths in todays pop-culture, ie Kardashians, Hiltons, dabbing, mumble-rap, Apple hitting a trillion ... would you like me to go on? People are shady AND stupid asf.
 
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Hmm...I wouldn't call it the essence of my post, but I certainly don't disagree: people ARE so stupid and gullible that the banks can do whatever they can. Do you think I want to get in my current situation of having to pay off two mortgages(1)? I honestly don't. I didn't want the mortgage to begin with, but truth is that I (or a large part of the population) simply cannot afford a house without a loan.

So educate them. I really don't like the idea of putting kiddie gates all around full-grown adults. That isn't how you fix the problem. It's a very easily exploitable, very short term solution.
 

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Sorry if I'm being thick here, but I don't understand your analogy.
The analogy is that most don't want to be educated. They're perfectly content in their world of pop-culture references and ignorance. They've become incapable of critical thought and prefer to be herded into their preferred opinions. They like to get told what to think and believe. Thats society/culture today. Thats our America. The beauty and majesty of Lady Liberty has been tarnished and contaminated by an aristocratic, pop culture golden shower.
 
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Sorry if I'm being thick here, but I don't understand your analogy.
Educating people how to avoid the problem doesn't fix the problem. You've got to address the source, rather than the consequences. The analogy was just saying you can try and educate the public, but people will still do dumb stuff even if they do know.
 
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The analogy is that most don't want to be educated. They're perfectly content in their world of pop-culture references and ignorance. They've become incapable of critical thought and prefer to be herded into their preferred opinions. They like to get told what to think and believe. Thats society/culture today. Thats our America. The beauty and majesty of Lady Liberty has been tarnished and contaminated by an aristocratic, pop culture golden shower.

Educating people how to avoid the problem doesn't fix the problem. You've got to address the source, rather than the consequences. The analogy was just saying you can try and educate the public, but people will still do dumb stuff even if they do know.

Well, what is the root of the problem here? Genuine question.
 

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Well, what is the root of the problem here? Genuine question.
People are the root problem. It's human nature to pursue self interests. While I'd love to say that we are capable of adhering to a moralistic ideology, you know as well as I do that when it's about protecting and gaining for me and mine, fuck you and yours. We're savage creatures at the core. How else would we have accomplished as much as we have as a species?
 
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People are the root problem. It's human nature to pursue self interests. While I'd love to say that we are capable of adhering to a moralistic ideology, you know as well as I do that when it's about protecting and gaining for me and mine, fuck you and yours. We're savage creatures at the core. How else would we have accomplished as much as we have as a species?
Going against human nature is a really great way to fail. Instead of trying to fix human nature, why not build around it? A free-market system is the most natural of all systems, since private property is the basis of all human interaction and decision making. Telling people that they can't do certain things with their money, bodies, or lives is so unnatural that it's a wonder we got as far as we did with valuing it as little as we do.
 
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brickmii82

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Going against human nature is a really great way to fail. Instead of trying to fix human nature, why not build around it? A free-market system is the most natural of all systems, since private property is the basis of all human interaction and decision making. Telling people that they can't do certain things with their money, bodies, or lives is so unnatural that it's a wonder we got as far as we did with valuing it as little as we do.
You're right. It is madness. But we desire to live in a civilized environment also. Civilization comes with a price, and that price is a freedom here and there. For example, sure you and I could go into competition selling whatsadooodles. But without the regulation of "No murdering people" being set as a precedent for our society, what keeps me from gunning you down to eliminate competition or visa-versa? So the freedom of us having the right to spill each others blood is now sacrificed in the interest of living in a better world.
 

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You're right. It is madness. But we desire to live in a civilized environment also. Civilization comes with a price, and that price is a freedom here and there. For example, sure you and I could go into competition selling whatsadooodles. But without the regulation of "No murdering people" being set as a precedent for our society, what keeps me from gunning you down to eliminate competition or visa-versa? So the freedom of us having the right to spill each others blood is now sacrificed in the interest of living in a better world.
Not murdering people is covered under accepting private property rights, as well as stealing and such. And a free-market based solution can be implemented, rights enforcement agencies. Here's a link to a video giving a very basic rundown. And you might say, "Hey, what about the poor!?" and yeah, the poor will have a tough time in this society, but they have a tough time in any society. (This is totally ignoring things like the reduced costs of living thanks to a free-market system, or the option to work a very low-skill job for a reduced pay, which is impossible with minimum wage laws)

Not to mention, forcing me to pay for anything is pretty immoral regardless. If I want to protect myself and my property with only a bat I should be allowed to.

And competition brings prices down, while the fact that petty crime like drug use is allowed, that's massive cost of business lifted, allowing companies to undercut their competitors even more.
 
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Not murdering people is covered under accepting private property rights, as well as stealing and such. And a free-market based solution can be implemented, rights enforcement agencies. Here's a link to a video giving a very basic rundown. And you might say, "Hey, what about the poor!?" and yeah, the poor will have a tough time in this society, but they have a tough time in any society. (This is totally ignoring things like the reduced costs of living thanks to a free-market system, or the option to work a very low-skill job for a reduced pay, which is impossible with minimum wage laws)

Not to mention, forcing me to pay for anything is pretty immoral regardless. If I want to protect myself and my property with only a bat I should be allowed to.

And competition brings prices down, while the fact that petty crime like drug use is allowed, that's massive cost of business lifted, allowing companies to undercut their competitors even more.
Competition is fantastic. No economic engine has ever accomplished more. I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying, is that to establish a fair and free society with an incentive to be productive and a consistent economic mobility, you will concede liberties and choices inevitably.
 

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Competition is fantastic. No economic engine has ever accomplished more. I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying, is that to establish a fair and free society with an incentive to be productive and a consistent economic mobility, you will concede liberties and choices inevitably.
But what must you give up? You don't have a right to kill people, and you don't have a right to kill. What must we give up?
 

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But what must you give up? You don't have a right to kill people, and you don't have a right to kill. What must we give up?
I already gave an example and you even elaborated on it. Murder and theft. The lion murders the gazelle and the snake steals the sparrows eggs. That's simply nature. If you want to debate semantics then you can do it with yourself. This psuedo-anarchy garbage you've presented is idiotic and unfeasible on any level. If you don't believe it, again, like I've said for the millionth time. Put your money where your mouth is and move to Mexico and have at it with the drug trade.
 

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So educate them. I really don't like the idea of putting kiddie gates all around full-grown adults. That isn't how you fix the problem. It's a very easily exploitable, very short term solution.
These "them" generally don't come asking me for advice. Part of the problem is that until it goes sideways, it's a win for all the parties involved. Brokers, the notary and the seller just get payed, and don't even get to see your financial situation. The bank also gets payed, as I've outlined. That just leaves buyers who need to get smart about a thing they've never done before in their life.

Btw...is this piece still related to the OP in any way?
 

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