An interesting question.

[duel]

So did dreaming and thinking not exist in humans before language was invented?

Language wasn't "invented", lol.

Language might not have been "invented" per se, but it "developed", and that's all Densetsu was saying.

Is it odd that I occasionally dream in text?

Is it odd that I occasionally think in images?

That's called imagination.

I'd guess a deaf person would think in a way they could understand. Though I'd never want to be in their shoes.

 

[Cyan]

Is it odd that I occasionally dream in text?

Yes, it's very odd, because while sleeping the part of the brain which is used for words is deactivated.

You can't read or write in dreams.
You can of course "dream that you write" or "dream that you read", but you can't actually read what's written.
Sometime when you remember your dreams, and there were some reading/writting behavior, try remembering what was written physically and read it again. You shouldn't be able to do it.

Text is just some visual signs too, but it's strange that you can picture an object's form, but not a letter's form.



About thinking in which language:
I'm native French, and I often think in english

But there are two way of "thinking".
I can "talk the words in my heads like if I were speaking to myself out loud"
and I can "imagine the situation that I want to do without thinking with any word". I can just know what I want, what I desire or need to do.


About what Densetsu said, while not remembering the used language, I think it's not totally the same thing as thinking with pictures.
it's more not caring which language you used to understand a situation.
sometime I read some text and only after few lines I realize which language I'm reading. I don't make any difference when reading French or English, I understand the meaning automatically without the need to translate.
I think you remember talking about that subject, but you didn't care which language you used, it was natural in either ones.

I think meanings or symbols is more appropriate than "visually imagining".
like you said, blind people might not used image, but they know what they want, their ideas (like eating when hungry).

I think Japanese language is even more used in symbols than western languages, like watashi is used for everything referring you yourself and not to the word "I" or "me", kagami for everything that reflect and not to the object "mirror" or the word "reflection".


(sorry, the post may be a little mixed with different ideas)

 

[ProtoKun7]

This reminds me of a similar question a friend asked me. How do you explain color to a blind person?

As various different wavelengths of light.

 

[JoostinOnline]

This reminds me of a similar question a friend asked me. How do you explain color to a blind person?

As various different wavelengths of light.

That explains what color is, but not what it looks like.

 

[Wizerzak]

To explain colour to a person you just need to describe what feelings/emotions that colour depicts or what it is used for etc.

What 'colour' they actually imagine is irrelevant, for all we know, the colour I see as red, someone else might see as what I would call blue.

 

[spotanjo3]

I was just thinking, in my head, my thoughts are in English... What does someone who is deaf think in?

-Pixl

I am curious... Are you deaf ?

 

[Flame]

I was just thinking, in my head, my thoughts are in English... What does someone who is deaf think in?

-Pixl

I am curious... Are you deaf ?

you are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox are you.

 

[Vulpes Abnocto]

Is it odd that I occasionally dream in text?

Yes, it's very odd, because while sleeping the part of the brain which is used for words is deactivated.

You can't read or write in dreams.
You can of course "dream that you write" or "dream that you read", but you can't actually read what's written.
Sometime when you remember your dreams, and there were some reading/writting behavior, try remembering what was written physically and read it again. You shouldn't be able to do it.

Text is just some visual signs too, but it's strange that you can picture an object's form, but not a letter's form.

Specifically I've dreamed in IRC. I interacted with some of the people around here the way I always do: in text. I could see the keyboard, my hands, the screen, and the conversation. It's only happened a time or two, but it seemed pretty odd to me.
And no, I can't recall the conversations now.

Wish I could check the history....

 

[ProtoKun7]

This reminds me of a similar question a friend asked me. How do you explain color to a blind person?

As various different wavelengths of light.

That explains what color is, but not what it looks like.

I know, but it's a start.
It did explain it, after all.

Is it odd that I occasionally dream in text?

Yes, it's very odd, because while sleeping the part of the brain which is used for words is deactivated.

You can't read or write in dreams.
You can of course "dream that you write" or "dream that you read", but you can't actually read what's written.
Sometime when you remember your dreams, and there were some reading/writting behavior, try remembering what was written physically and read it again. You shouldn't be able to do it.

Text is just some visual signs too, but it's strange that you can picture an object's form, but not a letter's form.

Specifically I've dreamed in IRC. I interacted with some of the people around here the way I always do: in text. I could see the keyboard, my hands, the screen, and the conversation. It's only happened a time or two, but it seemed pretty odd to me.
And no, I can't recall the conversations now.

Wish I could check the history....

[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tcmp.png[/img]

 

[Densetsu]

Regarding dreaming about text, when we see it in a dream, I think it's more of a mish-mash of symbols akin to something out of The Matrix, only with familiar Roman symbols (or whatever writing you use in your language) and not backwards katakana. You shouldn't be able to remember the text forming actual words, as Cyan pointed out. Your mind actually fills in the details of what that text is so that when you wake up and recall the dream, you only think you're remembering what the text said when in reality your mind fabricated and put the (visual) memory there.

And we should keep in mind: exactly what is "language," anyway? It's just sounds and symbols that encode images, thoughts and concepts into another form external to your mind. Without language, we'd still have those images, thoughts and concepts, they'd just be locked in our minds with no way to communicate them with others.

 

[alidsl]

The first post gave me a mindfuck , but thanks to densetsu I'm OK

Also is there any reason for the hidden links to hot ninjas Densetsu?

 

[retKHAAAN]

That is heavy.

 

[Densetsu]

Also is there any reason for the hidden links to hot ninjas Densetsu?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Spoiler

Hot ninjas secretly watching you with every post I make

 

[ThatDudeWithTheFood]

Also is there any reason for the hidden links to hot ninjas Densetsu?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Spoiler

Hot ninjas secretly watching you with every post I make

WHERE?!?!??!??!?

 

[Densetsu]

WHERE?!?!??!??!?

Stay on topic

 

[PixlCrushr]

It was really great to see some intelligent answers, some of which actually helped me get my head round the question, thanks guys

-Pixl

 

[Densetsu]

This reminds me of a similar question a friend asked me. How do you explain color to a blind person?

I can't think of a way to verbally explain color to someone who was born blind. But interestingly enough, it is possible to show color to a blind person by probing their brain and electrically stimulating the occipital lobe.

Subjects of these kinds of experiments have reported seeing random-colored, amorphous spots of light. People with congenital blindness (born blind) weren't able to describe the lights since they were using their eyes for the first time ever, and therefore never learned to assign words like "red," "green," "blue" and "yellow" to certain colors.

People who were born with normal eyesight but became blind later on in life were able to confirm different colors and describe qualities like "hazy," "blurry," "sharp edges," etc.

It was really great to see some intelligent answers, some of which actually helped me get my head round the question, thanks guys

-Pixl

Glad we could be of help

Some of the most intelligent discussions I've ever read have been on this forum!