[BFWWIWA] Issue #1 - Sega Saturn

[Danny600kill]

OMG the Saturn <3

This is my all time favourite console, I've been trying to grab a decent priced one for some time now seeing as my original disappeared :/ I think this console is the first console I fully enjoyed as a child and is what started my passion for gaming, and maybe why sonic is my favourite gaming franchise.

 

[Mariko]

In the case of Naughty dog, they are a second party dev... meaning they were on Sony's bankroll anyway, and had far stronger access to Sony's resources for support than say... Capcom or VALVe.

How exactly is their relationship with Sony relevant to the development of their own tools? Naughty Dog have a history of handling the development on their own, prime example being Andy Gavin's custom programming languages and their console implementations. Besides, whether you're a first, second or third party developer, Sony doesn't want your game to suck if it's going to be published on their console. What you're saying sounds like there's a special support service for second party developers, which supplies them with the latest tricks, all ready to go.

What I meant to point out was that early PlayStation games didn't amaze. Saturn always gets labelled as the superior 2D console, and its 3D is always panned, but like I said, it wasn't all home runs for PlayStation, either. People laugh at Jaguar's Cybermorph, but guess what? That's what you get when you're releasing new technology, and there are no experienced developers around, because it's the first time for everyone, and you have to learn as you go. PlayStation got Total Eclipse Turbo, which admittedly looked better, but was released much later and on a superior hardware, but who cares about all that, when you can compare Saturn's infancy with PlayStation's best and greatest.

I don't want this to become a rant about which console is better, etc. It's not about specs. It's about Sega not being able to secure their position on the market, yet again. Anyway, there are plenty of interesting titles for the Saturn, and a good game is still a good game, no matter how many polygons it's trying to push.

Due to the fact that the Katana SDK was leaked into the depths of the Internet, Dreamcast homebrew is far more numerous, roboust and popular, to the point that the system still gets commercial unlicensed releases to this day.

Homebrew games for the Dreamcast are using KallistiOS, initially developed by Dan Potter. This SDK has no relation to either Katana or Windows CE. It's entirely independent and developed by Dan from scratch. It's also free to use, even for commercial purposes. NG.Dev Team's releases are still using Kallisti v1.2, I think. The SDK is still being developed, and got a 2.0 update in 2013. So, whether it's a Senile Team game, or a HuCast game, or anything else that deserves a disc pressing, it's KallistiOS.

 

[BORTZ]

I dont think i have ever seen a Sega Saturn in real life, and if I have, its been mistaken for a Genesis or Mega Drive or whatever. The most confusing part to me was all the addons and confusing time line of release dates. I guess for the longest time in the back of my mind, i knew SS existed, but I never really though about what generation they belonged to, or who for that matter, competed with. All I ever heard about were PS1s and N64s.

That said, there are a couple of games I have always wanted to play for the Saturn...
Shining Force 3 (all 3 episodes...), and Dragon Force.

Shining Force 3 got the first part localized... but episodes 2 and 3 are japanese only. Translations exist, but they are a super pain in the anus to get working.
/sighs
It looks like so much fun to play...


And Dragon Force... was a sprite based fantasy war game... with over 100 sprites on the battlefield at once...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kmEyag0D5jI#t=297

 

[Foxi4]

It's funny how developers are able to overcome any difficulties now, and back then they would just choose the easy way of sticking with one processor, or would abandon the platform altogether. (...) People tend to blame Saturn's architecture a lot, but it was really the architecture combined with the reality of the '90s.

I can't really agree with that statement, having in mind the fact that "supplying the developer with a devkit for your system" was still sort-of a new and revolutionary idea at that time. During the NES/SMS/SNES/MD days, it wasn't uncommon for companies to build their own devkits out of commercially-available consoles and spare parts (see: Factor 5's Pegasus SNES devkits, Electronic Arts' Sega Probe Genesis devkit), so it's definitely not a matter of the 90'ties. I think there simply comes a point when a system is so complex that people gradually stop caring, and the Saturn was really close to getting to that point. Thankfuly it didn't, Sega released development tools and all was well in game library land - still a shame that it didn't sell nearly as well as it could've.

It's true that the early PS1 games aren't trumping Saturn ones and I firmly believe that if the Saturn was on the market longer, it too would enjoy more advanced 3D development. Programmers had to learn how to use the new dimension in space and Saturn didn't get to live long enough to fully enjoy the fruits of said dimension. That being said, there's still plenty of 3D games on it worth mentioning, and the fact that they're so grossly different than those late PlayStation ones we all know might actually be one of their vital qualities.

Homebrew games for the Dreamcast are using KallistiOS, initially developed by Dan Potter. This SDK has no relation to either Katana or Windows CE. It's entirely independent and developed by Dan from scratch. It's also free to use, even for commercial purposes. NG.Dev Team's releases are still using Kallisti v1.2, I think. The SDK is still being developed, and got a 2.0 update in 2013. So, whether it's a Senile Team game, or a HuCast game, or anything else that deserves a disc pressing, it's KallistiOS.

That's an interesting tidbit, thanks for that! I know for a fact that the leaking of Katana's software led to a major boom on the DC scene, including the creation of UTOPIA, but contemporary methods of homebrew development on the system are not something I'm familiar with - I'll look into then when it's then Dreamcast's turn to sit proudly on the frontpage in a couple of months.

 

[Mariko]

I can't really agree with that statement, having in mind the fact that "supplying the developer with a devkit for your system" was still sort-of a new and revolutionary idea at that time. During the NES/SMS/SNES/MD days, it wasn't uncommon for companies to build their own devkits out of commercially-available consoles and spare parts

Let's not confuse the lack of motivation with the lack of knowledge. I'm sure there were enough of crafty developers out there, but in the end, it all came down to work versus profit. Had Saturn's complexity been the biggest issue, it wouldn't have lasted for as long as it did. After all, it was still being produced well into the year 2000 (in Japan, of course). Then again, it depends on how you look at it. Saturn development hurdles were a definite turn-off for many companies, which isn't to say the console was too difficult or complex to handle. All I meant was that given the reality of the market, people would rather invest their time into something that would result in profit.

Getting used to new technology today isn't as hard as it was back then, because really, how now is the new stuff? PlayStation 4 is a PC, and so is everything else. That's what's new. Today you have 10-year-olds soldering up repro cartridges, so yea, I guess a console like Saturn could have been too complex for some, but not for the likes of the aforementioned Andy Gavin, who is an M.I.T. genius.

That's an interesting tidbit, thanks for that! I know for a fact that the leaking of Katana's software led to a major boom on the DC scene, including the creation of UTOPIA, but contemporary methods of homebrew development on the system are not something I'm familiar with - I'll look into then when it's then Dreamcast's turn to sit proudly on the frontpage in a couple of months.

You're welcome, and on the homebrew note, yes, the Utopia boot disc was compiled using official libraries, but all it really did was give the homebrewers a way of booting their stuff, and the vast majority of early productions was Windows CE based. KallistiOS became widespread around 2001, and the first public leak of the Katana SDK occured sometime in 2004. To make the long story short, Utopia's boot disc started the mainstream homebrew boom, but the Katana SDK itself didn't play a major role in the further development of the scene.

 

[Foxi4]

*Snip!*

This is very informative, thank you! I'll be sure to dive deep into the homebrew tidbits regarding the Dreamcast before writing anything about it, I know there's a whole lot for me to read.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with calling the PS4 and the XBox One a "PC" without explaining what a PC actually is, mostly because it evokes negative connotations to those who don't know that. At the end of the day, a PC is merely a personal computer - everything from a pocket calculator to a desktop computer, consoles included, does computing for the user and as such is both personal and a computer.

A Mac is a PC (now more then ever since they're also Intel-based these days), but we got used to this standard of calling everything that's "IBM-Compatible and x86-based" a PC, and that's sometimes unfair and misleading. The fact that they're both x86_64 doesn't really make them any less consoles or any more "PC's", much like the XBox wasn't a "PC" despite literally running on a Pentium derrivative and an NVidia GeForce derrivative.

The switch to x86_64 was made to make porting low-level code easier, not necessarily to "become PC's" - both the XBox One and the PS4 are still consoles. Now, Steam Machines, we could have a whole debate about those.

 

[Magnus87]

That's debatable, backwards compatibility doesn't make or break a system, especially when everybody and their dog already own the previous one.

Yes but if it have backwards compatibility. for example you can play "more game" on the launch day. Check out gameboy family

GBC? Well, we have all GB games (815) and new games
GBA? Well, we have all GB/C games (815+469) and new games


Backwards compatibility is not key to success for the console but Its a "Plus/Bonus/Extra". The cherry on the top

If Saturn had it. We could play genesis/megadrive games with S-Video and stereo without a mod

 

[Foxi4]

Yes but if it have backwards compatibility. for example you can play "more game" on the launch day. Check out gameboy family

GBC? Well, we have all GB games (815) and new games
GBA? Well, we have all GB/C games (815+469) and new games


Backwards compatibility is not key to success for the console but Its a "Plus/Bonus/Extra". The cherry on the top

If Saturn had it. We could play genesis/megadrive games with S-Video and stereo without a mod

That's true, but it's still just a cherry on the cake. Imagine how expensive it would be if it had Mega Drive/Genesis hardware inside of it - it already sold for $399 and back then that was a huge pricetag. I don't think it would manage to build an install base easily if it cost that much.

In the case of the GB and the GBC, both systems were based on the same hardware with small differences and the same CPU at different clock speeds. The GBA used GBC's processor as a sound co-processor, so there was also a point in including it beyond backwards compatibility. The Saturn was a departure from Mega Drive's/Genesis' architecture, so the issue was more complex and as such backwards compatibility would be more pricy to implement (see: PlayStation 3 and its $499/$599 pricetag).

That, and portables and home consoles are like apples and oranges.

 

[codezer0]

How exactly is their relationship with Sony relevant to the development of their own tools? Naughty Dog have a history of handling the development on their own, prime example being Andy Gavin's custom programming languages and their console implementations. Besides, whether you're a first, second or third party developer, Sony doesn't want your game to suck if it's going to be published on their console. What you're saying sounds like there's a special support service for second party developers, which supplies them with the latest tricks, all ready to go.

What I meant to point out was that early PlayStation games didn't amaze. Saturn always gets labelled as the superior 2D console, and its 3D is always panned, but like I said, it wasn't all home runs for PlayStation, either. People laugh at Jaguar's Cybermorph, but guess what? That's what you get when you're releasing new technology, and there are no experienced developers around, because it's the first time for everyone, and you have to learn as you go. PlayStation got Total Eclipse Turbo, which admittedly looked better, but was released much later and on a superior hardware, but who cares about all that, when you can compare Saturn's infancy with PlayStation's best and greatest.

I don't want this to become a rant about which console is better, etc. It's not about specs. It's about Sega not being able to secure their position on the market, yet again. Anyway, there are plenty of interesting titles for the Saturn, and a good game is still a good game, no matter how many polygons it's trying to push.

That's because for the longest time, the PlayStation was a horrible machine for handling 2D, in large part because of its otherwise limited resources. The original PlayStation did not even have a hardware z-buffer... and it took Naughty Dog a lot of time and resources that most pure third parties would not have, or certainly money to fund to research a way to finally get a working and efficient z-buffer in software mode on the PS1's pokey specs. As for 2D, it took Capcom until Street Fighter Alpha 3 before they had 2D down to the point that it was at least at the same level of performance as a stock Saturn - never mind a Saturn enhanced with one of the RAM expansion carts. For all intents and purposes, a Saturn with a RAM expansion cart installed was effectively arcade perfect, in both load times and frame-perfect animation, because at least the Saturn had a way of overcoming said limits.

In the Game Dev side of the Industry, it was well known that the PlayStation SDK - especially for the first couple of years - was awful. Sure, it claimed to support C and C++ on paper... but if you actually wanted anything to run fast, it had to be done in assembly. With the PS2, it was also well known that the PS2 SDK had no concept of anti-aliasing, because neither the hardware nor the shipping SDK supported it in any way, shape or form. It took a lot of resources to even get that to work. And before you point it out, I am well aware of the HD support for Gran Turismo 4 and Tourist trophy... both are titles that are:

• running on the same engine practically
• developed by Polyphony, a second-party dev that got a lot of funding (read: $$$$$$$$) from Sony
• Got to take their sweet time to figure out how to make that possible. Keep in mind both of those games came out late in the PS2's actively supported life.

Calling a spade a spade, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Retro studios got the same kind of preferential treatment when it came time to releasing Metroid Prime on Nintendo's Gamecube, or Bungie for Microsoft's Xbox. They can claim that they made their own tools all they want, but I would not be surprised in the least if there weren't more than a handful of Sony engineers and devs that come in to assist Naughty Dog's staff on a regular, vested interest.

 

[CathyRina]

Backwards compatibility is not key to success for the console but Its a "Plus/Bonus/Extra".

I remember when I did a Power Point presentation about Microsoft I tumbled over a tiny old article that criticized MS-DOS backwards compatibility because it made hardware development slower. A system without Backwards compatibility would develop faster but would have to start from 0 every time, available program wise. As we all know Microsoft "won" the market with their backwards compatibility and PC OS nowadays all have some sort of backwards compatibility.

Nowadays you can clearly see what the critique meant if you look at Nintendo. We live in year 2014 and "HD" is a selling point for them.
Their Console basically is a Wii U + the Hardware from Wii to run Wii games. As far as I heard instead of backwards compatibility Sony is doing emulation for Vita with PSP titles, like Nintendo does with Virtual Console Games.
However Emulation isn't a thing you can program in one day (Especially in 1994). It requires a big amount of time. The Playstation 2 Emulator for example still hasn't the full Game Library compatible.
So Sega would have, like Foxi said, put the new "up-to-date" hardware into the console plus the old one. The Saturn would have cost sh*t tons of money and would be probably even less successful than it is now because no one could have afford it.
Selling "up to date" hardware without backwards compatibility was the next logical step.

In my opinion Consoles don't need Backward compatibility.
I mean It's cool that I can play GC games on Wii or DS games on 3DS but... I already own a GC and DS.
Even if I hadn't I could easily go and get a used console for 50€ and could do with it what ever I want.

 

[Foxi4]

*Snip!*

The praise Saturn gets is well-deserved, but we can't forget about all the things the PS1 and the N64 did. The Saturn certainly had the memory and the hardware to push loads of sprites, backgrounds and elaborate geometry, but without hardware accelerated lighting and transparencies, the final effects weren't always looking as great as they did on the competition's machines. It was certainly a very powerful machine, but in certain respects it was behind the times technologically, which is a shame - I can only imagine how this rich geometry would look like if it was adorned with rich lighting, proper transparency and actual triangles with UV coordinates for each of the vertices.

Perhaps the PlayStation's SDK was not that great and the specs were definitely the poorest out of the three, but keep in mind that the N64's and the Saturn's hardware was convoluted (one look at the memory layout shows you that the Saturn's memory was heavily sectioned) and the SDK's were poor as well, in case of the Saturn even insufficient upon release. Some of the most breath-taking N64 games are also made using completely re-written microcode and custom SDK's - Rogue Squadron comes to mind. There's a reason why developers flocked to the PlayStation - it was the cheapest for the consumer and arguably the easiest to work with for the coders.

That being said, the Saturn truly was a 2D beast precisely because its VDP's could work in a 2D-oriented way. Sega clearly poured all of the knowledge they've gained after being years in the arcade business into the machine, games like Capcom's fighters were indeed definitive on it.

 

[SS4]

Great post Foxi, i love my Saturn!

 

[SpaceJump]

Great article Foxi

I still have my Saturn with some games, one of them being Panzer Dragoon Saga in very good condition

 

[Kouen Hasuki]

Had one of these machines, good console that.

With luck these articles will bring more than just convo's about 3DS on the site

Also Exhumed / Powerslave on saturn = one of my Fav Saturn titles ever

 

[Mariko]

In the Game Dev side of the Industry, it was well known that the PlayStation SDK - especially for the first couple of years - was awful. Sure, it claimed to support C and C++ on paper... but if you actually wanted anything to run fast, it had to be done in assembly.

Isn't that what I said? SDKs sucked, and that's all there is to it. Also, coding in Assembly wasn't that big a deal, especially back then, and besides, developing a game doesn't equal just typing it up in machine code, line by line. Thinking outside of the box pretty much required the use of Assembly, and you say it like it's a bad thing.

With the PS2, it was also well known that the PS2 SDK had no concept of anti-aliasing, because neither the hardware nor the shipping SDK supported it in any way, shape or form. It took a lot of resources to even get that to work. And before you point it out, I am well aware of the HD support for Gran Turismo 4 and Tourist trophy.

I wasn't going to point that out simply because it's a non-issue. In fact, Naughty Dog themselves said the whole AA debacle was blown out of proportion, and they were right. Bringing Gran Turismo up isn't a good idea, anyways, because its development process is so far detached from anything else, it can't really serve as a valid example.

Calling a spade a spade, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Retro studios got the same kind of preferential treatment when it came time to releasing Metroid Prime on Nintendo's Gamecube, or Bungie for Microsoft's Xbox.

The only thing I see here are your own assumptions, and that doesn't really bring anything to the table. Also, I've never considered Halo to be that big a deal. At least the first game had some shaders to show off, but the rest? I wasn't impressed. I did play them, but Halo 3 was a major disappointment. In all fairness, even you'd have to admit, that the best thing Microsoft's money bought Bungie was the insane amount of hype. We've seen better games. Criterion's Black comes to mind, which blew my mind on the PlayStation 2 (depth-of-field effects, and other crazy shit), and hey, they were a third party dev.

 

[Diego Liberal]

performance boost in Wipeout? that's odd, I remember playing the game and the frame rate was practically unplasyable . (and I've played demo of the game on ps1 so I know it wasn't meant to be that bad)

ironically I enjoyed tomb raider a lot more. The Saturn version is the only version of tomb raider I ever played. I never finished it though, I got stock in this one room with a rolling rock and caged door. iirc it was red floor and gold walls.

You were on the latest levels You described a room at Atlantis levels (just 3 levels for atlantis before finishing game)

 

[Hanafuda]

Just a followup on an earlier post ... I received the Retro-Bit s-video cable for SS and have to give it a big thumbs-up. Very well made cable for the $10 is cost me, and the improvement in picture quality is just what you'd expect jumping from composite to s-video. If you're running a Saturn on a CRT TV with the original composite cable, I'd highly recommend grabbing this while you can. It's a major improvement for little $.

 

[Foxi4]

Just a followup on an earlier post ... I received the Retro-Bit s-video cable for SS and have to give it a big thumbs-up. Very well made cable for the $10 is cost me, and the improvement in picture quality is just what you'd expect jumping from composite to s-video. If you're running a Saturn on a CRT TV with the original composite cable, I'd highly recommend grabbing this while you can. It's a major improvement for little $.

I'll have to consider this as my composite cables are a little bit flimsy. I don't have any complaints over the picture quality, but I sure wouldn't mind making it better if there's an option to do just that without spending a whole lot.

 

[codezer0]

Well, the ideal would be being able to run an RGBs cable, and maybe to a late-model CRT HDTV.

It's sad... my job has one of these late-model, widescreen CRT HDTV's, that happens to be modern enough to even have an HDMI input. I've even went on record to say that I'd want one if they ever thought about replacing it, because it was a decent size and everything.