Donald Trump impeachment investigation over Ukranian phone call...

[Hanafuda]

Like I said, simply asking a foreign power to investigate a political opponent is illegal ...

Cite the law.

Not that I give a fuck about what happens to Biden either, but there's no evidence that he or his son are guilty of anything illegal, otherwise Trump wouldn't have to ask a foreign power to dig up dirt on them in the first place.

So I take it you have not yet watched the video where Biden admits (brags) that he refused $1.2billion in US aid to Ukraine unless they fired the prosecutor who was investigating the company his son was invested in? That's maybe not enough to prove Biden committed a crime, but it is evidence and it's enough for probable cause to investigate. And since the alleged crime occurred in Ukraine, makes sense to invoke our mutual assistance treaty with Ukraine and ask them to investigate it.

 

[billapong]

Like I said, simply asking a foreign power to investigate a political opponent is illegal, regardless of whether he ALSO tried to withhold aid as an extortion tactic (which would be an additional crime). Not that I give a fuck about what happens to Biden either, but there's no evidence that he or his son are guilty of anything illegal, otherwise Trump wouldn't have to ask a foreign power to dig up dirt on them in the first place.

That's nice, but Biden isn't Trump's political opponent. The last time I checked the DNC hasn't chosen a candidate to run against Trump. Right now Biden is just some guy that might be Trump's political opponent. Just because you belong to another party or have different viewpoints doesn't make someone else your opponent. That would require you're actually involved in some sort of direct competition, you know, like a Presidential election.

 

[Xzi]

Cite the law.

I'm not a lawyer or a judge, I wouldn't know where to begin looking for the exact law. However, I assume Fox News' judicial analyst, along with other legal experts saying the same thing, know what they're talking about when they say Trump confessed to a crime.

Judge Andrew Napolitano told Fox News host Shepard Smith on Tuesday that the president effectively confessed to a crime when he admitted he asked Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter.

Napolitano, a Fox News senior judicial analyst, had framed President Trump's earlier statement as an admission that he tried to "solicit aid for his campaign from a foreign government."

“So that to which the president has admitted is in and of itself a crime,” Smith followed. Napolitano responded, "yes," and claimed it was the same crime former Special Counsel Robert Mueller investigated as part of the long-running Russia investigation.

Should be common sense that attempting to have a foreign government help your domestic election campaign is illegal. Otherwise Americans would never have the opportunity pick their own president.

So I take it you have not yet watched the video where Biden admits (brags) that he refused $1.2billion in US aid to Ukraine unless they fired the prosecutor who was investigating the company his son was invested in?

I haven't seen this video, no. Was this while Obama was still in office? It's whataboutism either way, but I'm willing to humor you.

That's nice, but Biden isn't Trump's political opponent. The last time I checked the DNC hasn't chosen a candidate to run against Trump.

Oh c'mon, this is a silly (and pedantic) argument to attempt to make. All Democrats are Trump's political opponents, even the ones not running for president.

 

[billapong]

Oh c'mon, this is a silly (and pedantic) argument to attempt to make. All Democrats are Trump's political opponents, even the ones not running for president.

In a sense that's correct, but Biden is not directly competing with Trump for anything. Lebron James isn't Nicole Gibbs opponent. You're stretching things, which is completely expected. If my political party lost and was drowning I'd be grasping at anything I could get my hands on too. The problem is that the Democratic party is getting overrun with Liberals, which are by nature dishonest. Liberals will grasp at shit they completely make up out of thin air.

Well, just like the boy who cried wolf, you can only play the Trump card so many times. In this instance, you have the same phony bunch of politicians that spent 2 years trying to convict Trump based on a conspiracy theory. So, even if there is a law restricting Trump from asking a foreign nation to look into his political opponents dealings he didn't violate it because Biden is not currently his opponent.

 

[Xzi]

If my political party lost and was drowning I'd be grasping at anything I could get my hands on too.

The irony being that the Republican party lost big time in the last election (2018).

So, even if there is a law restricting Trump from asking a foreign nation to look into his political opponents dealings he didn't violate it because Biden is not currently his opponent.

That's not the way it works. It's illegal for Trump's campaign to attempt to enlist the aid of a foreign government, regardless of whether or not it also damages one of his political opponents in the process.

 

[billapong]

The irony being that the Republican party lost big time in the last election (2018).

That's not the way it works. It's illegal for Trump's campaign to attempt to enlist the aid of a foreign government, regardless of whether or not it also damages one of his political opponents in the process.

Those minor gains were inconsequential. I was referring to the last Presidential election.

Trump is not directly competing with Biden. Trump's campaign didn't have any involvement in the matter. It was Trump himself who asked the Ukrainian President to look into Biden. We have no idea what Trump would have done with that information, that's if anything was found. We have no idea what sort of impact, if any, the investigation would have on the democratic primaries.

What you have is a snitch with a known political bias feeding confidential information to the Democrats in Congress who in turn misinterpret it to use in a so far futile attempt to impeach the President. As far as I see it the Democrats are interfering in their own election. No one would have known about Biden's supposed illegal activity if Congress didn't push the issue. It could have had ZERO impact on anything and could have lead to nowhere. The democrats in Congress are the ones that meddled.

So, the Democratic tactic is to impeach Trump based on speculation that Trump's request might have interfered with their primaries. Well, good luck with that. I understand desperate times call for desperate measures, but keep building your foundation on sand and you'e going to keep getting the same result.

 

[maddenmike95]

They already did, see CallmeBerto's post above. Even based on the White House's own interpretation/edits, Trump is clearly guilty of the "quid," already a crime in itself. No need to prove the "pro quo."

@Xzi He has done nothing wrong period. How is it a crime for trying to expose someone? Democrats are just overacting and nothing will happen once again. Democrats are basically saying impeachable offense's need not be an actual crime. Why they have the power to do this, I have no idea. There is no specific law broken here and if "said" law was broken it will be very hard to prove in court.

 

[SG854]

Again with this impeachment bullshit. I'm out, I don't care. I'm not even going to keep up with the news on this, fuck that.

 

[Xzi]

Those minor gains were inconsequential.

Considering Republicans lost a majority in the House, I'd say you're wrong.

Trump is not directly competing with Biden. Trump's campaign didn't have any involvement in the matter. It was Trump himself who asked the Ukrainian President to look into Biden.

Jesus Christ dude, how disingenuous can you possibly get? Trump isn't a part of Trump's 2020 campaign now? If that's the case, who is replacing him on the ticket?

So, the Democratic tactic is to impeach Trump based on speculation that Trump's request might have interfered with their primaries.

Incorrect. I'm not going to keep clarifying this for you. He attempted to enlist foreign aid for his 2020 campaign. It doesn't matter that Ukraine refused, it doesn't matter what kind of aid he was requesting, just the fact he requested it at all was a blatantly criminal act. One which he personally confessed to.

 

[billapong]

He has done nothing wrong period. How is it a crime for trying to expose someone? Democrats are just overacting and nothing will happen once again.

The way he went about might have been a crime if he then used the information to interfere with the democratic primaries. The entire thing is based on what some nark heard other people talking about, who had no first hand knowledge of the call. Before Congress made it and issue it had not and might have ever interfered with the democratic primaries. Biden, who may or may not have done something illegal by withholding $1b aid to Ukraine to help his son out out of a bind, would possibly could have never been effected by the investigation, that's if the Ukrainian's actually did start and investigation. A good read is on the BBC. They actually cover both sides and aspects that the Liberal media is conveniently not publishing. I suggest you read it.

It's pretty funny considering all you have are a bunch of "what if", "possibly" and a bunch of speculation based on hearsay. It's not like the Liberals in power are that smart. So I say let them have their impeachment vote and let it go to the Senate. It's probably not going to pass and even if it does it's not like removing Trump from office is going to change much. Actually, there's little to no possible way that the Senate is going to vote to remove Trump. Go look at how this process works on how many votes they'd need and then look at various stats on who's in the Senate and who holds the majority.

Trump and every President before him is mainly a mouthpiece for their party and the rest of the people in power. It's not like removing him is going to have much of an impact on how things are progressing. Pence will take over and you'll still have the other tens of thousands of people who are directly controlling Trump in power. I can see how it could make the Liberals "feel better", but their feelings are irrelevant. Things will just continue to improve like they have since the Republicans got back into power.

It's just that it's really unlikely Trump will be removed from power especially based on what the Democrats have now, which amounts to not much of anything, but they are good at causing a ruckus out of thin air. Smart people see right through the Liberal agenda and that's the majority of society. I mean, how many times can they cry wolf before the people get sick of it?

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Considering Republicans lost a majority in the House, I'd say you're wrong.

Jesus Christ dude, how disingenuous can you possibly get? Trump isn't a part of Trump's 2020 campaign now? If that's the case, who is replacing him on the ticket?

Incorrect. I'm not going to keep clarifying this for you. He attempted to enlist foreign aid for his 2020 campaign. It doesn't matter that Ukraine refused, it doesn't matter what kind of aid he was requesting, just the fact he requested it at all was a blatantly criminal act.

You're speculating that Trump was looking into Biden for his 2020 campaign. There's no proof he was. You mentioned Trump's campaign looked into it, as if his campaign manager and stuff were involved. He's not a 1 man campaign and since you can't prove he was looking into Biden for his campaign or that he was going to interfere with the Democratic primaries based on any findings you have no proof thus nothing to stand on. Speculation and wishful thinking has never and never will pass as tangible evidence. Possibly, he just wanted to see a criminal get the justice he deserves? See though, that's speculation on my behalf. You or I don't know Trump intentions either way. He might have been asking for the information for an infinite amount of reasons, but you have no proof it was to interfere with the current elections or the possible opponent he might face in 2020.

 

[Xzi]

You're speculating that Trump was looking into Biden for his 2020 campaign.

I'm not speculating about anything, both Trump and Giuliani have admitted to this. The transcript released by the White House also confirms it. Whether or not Trump used aid money as an extortion tactic is the only thing in question still, but that's largely secondary to the fact that we know he committed a crime. If legal experts weren't 100% sure about that, Pelosi never would've faced enough pressure to begin impeachment proceedings.

 

[Hanafuda]

I haven't seen this video, no. Was this while Obama was still in office? It's whataboutism either way, but I'm willing to humor you.

Ok, for background, here's an ABC report:


So, smells like shit, but nobody's seen an actual turd.

Then this. The intro panel contains a typo ... says 2006 but it was 2016. Shokin was in office as Ukraine's General Prosecutor from 02/2015 - 03/2016.




And some reading on :
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-h...ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived

 

[billapong]

I'm not speculating about anything, both Trump and Giuliani have admitted to this. The transcript released by the White House also confirms it. Whether or not Trump used aid money as an extortion tactic is the only thing in question still, but that's largely secondary to the fact that we know he committed a crime. If legal experts weren't 100% sure about that, Pelosi never would've faced enough pressure to begin impeachment proceedings.

I've read the transcript. I have the original PDF. You clear lack of honesty regarding the transcript shows how futile your attempts to convince me are. You stating it says things that it doesn't say. You're making shit up.

Trump doesn't mention that he was seeking the information to influence any campaigns. He simply asked the Ukrainian President to look into the matter and mentioned he'd like to know what fueled Mueller as basis, but never explicitly states his reasoning. If I was a victim like Trump was to the entire Mueller situation I would want answers too, but he never states he was going to meddle or use the results of any investigation for election purposes. He's not Biden opponent. Biden is a potential opponent. There's no proof he was going to mess with the primaries or any other election. "He might have" doesn't cut it. I also don't see why you're focused on this particular part of the issue when the rest of the Democratic party is focused on if Trump tried to use the aid as leverage.

What I also find funny is that what the Democrats are speculating Trump did is exactly what they did, but in their case they admit to it and there's proof. In Trump's case, there's no proof. So I'm done addressing this particular part of the issue with you. You're wrong about there being any proof he was going to mess with elections. Period. End of discussion.

 

[Xzi]

Ok, for background, here's an ABC report:


So, smells like shit, but nobody's seen an actual turd.

Then this. The intro panel contains a typo ... says 2006 but it was 2016. Shokin was in office as Ukraine's General Prosecutor from 02/2015 - 03/2016.




And some reading on :
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-h...ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived

I appreciate the information. It definitely looks shady to your average observer, though per the article:

Interviews with a half-dozen senior Ukrainian officials confirm Biden’s account, though they claim the pressure was applied over several months in late 2015 and early 2016, not just six hours of one dramatic day. Whatever the case, Poroshenko and Ukraine’s parliament obliged by ending Shokin’s tenure as prosecutor. Shokin was facing steep criticism in Ukraine, and among some U.S. officials, for not bringing enough corruption prosecutions when he was fired.

The difficulty lies in proving that Biden insisted the prosecutor be fired specifically to help his son, and not because forces both in the US and Ukraine thought he was weak on corruption cases.

Regardless, you're not gonna hear me complaining if the end result of all this is bad for both Biden and Trump. I'm sick of corporate crony capitalists in both parties holding on to power with a vice-like grip.

 

[Hanafuda]

I appreciate the information. It definitely looks shady to your average observer, though per the article:


The difficulty lies in proving that Biden insisted the prosecutor be fired specifically to help his son, and not because forces both in the US and Ukraine thought he was weak on corruption cases.

Regardless, you're not gonna hear me complaining if the end result of all this is bad for both Biden and Trump. I'm sick of corporate crony capitalists in both parties holding on to power with a vice-like grip.

Yeah like I said before, in my opinion at least, the video of Biden's brag isn't enough to say a crime was definitely committed by the VP of the United States. But it's enough to say a crime was likely to have been committed, and that's because of the very obvious conflict of interest there for Biden to be playing hardball with a foreign nation, forcing the firing of their General Prosecutor (equivalent position to US Attorney General) under threat of withholding aid, while his son had very significant financial dealings in that country with a company that was under investigation. The conflict of interest shows either willful corruption, or gross incompetence. Biden is a lawyer and has been a major player in US government since being elected to the Senate in 1972. He knew better, or he's lost the capacity to know better. But you don't just listen to him boasting about strongarming a foreign government into giving him what he wants, shake your head, and say, "Oh that's just Joe. He didn't mean nothin' by it." It needs to be investigated. And where are the witnesses who will know what Joe Biden said, what exactly he threatened, whether the investigation of the company his son was with had anything to do with it? They're in Ukraine.

 

[maddenmike95]

This......lol

 

[billapong]

Yeah like I said before, in my opinion at least, the video of Biden's brag isn't enough to say a crime was definitely committed by the VP of the United States. But it's enough to say a crime was likely to have been committed, and that's because of the very obvious conflict of interest there for Biden to be playing hardball with a foreign nation, forcing the firing of their General Prosecutor (equivalent position to US Attorney General) under threat of withholding aid, while his son had very significant financial dealings in that country with a company that was under investigation. The conflict of interest shows either willful corruption, or gross incompetence. Biden is a lawyer and has been a major player in US government since being elected to the Senate in 1972. He knew better, or he's lost the capacity to know better. But you don't just listen to him boasting about strongarming a foreign government into giving him what he wants, shake your head, and say, "Oh that's just Joe. He didn't mean nothin' by it." It needs to be investigated. And where are the witnesses who will know what Joe Biden said, what exactly he threatened, whether the investigation of the company his son was with had anything to do with it? They're in Ukraine.

Well, regardless of "why" he did it, he still did it, which is a lot more than the "Trump might have" ...

 

[Ericthegreat]

One think i thought was weird from reading the transcript of the call (and yes its still just as bad) was the whole "mafia shakedown" thing, he asked for a favor to investigate crowdstrike, and tossed a bit about biden at the end, its still just as bad, but I really hate how everything has to be over sensationalized, I really think this is just so democrats can say "see we tried to impeach him!". I am not defending trump in any way, just saying.

 

[luisedgarf]

Yes, I just read it. I don't see any sort of link between him trying to use aid as a way to blackmail or otherwise force Ukrainian Mr. Zelensky to investigate Biden. I see how some people could infer that's the case, but that's a stretch and those are the same type of people that require a TL;DR because of a poor attention span or the type of people that need a /s because they're lacking basic comprehension skills.

Normally, Americans are the ones who normally requires using a TL;DR, not the most of the world, who can understand it very well. That's the reason why I don't use the whole TL;DR thing, since its offensive for the intelligence of both thw writer and the readers.

 

[billapong]

Normally, Americans are the ones who normally requires using a TL;DR, not the most of the world, who can understand it very well. That's the reason why I don't use the whole TL;DR thing, since its offensive for the intelligence of both thw writer and the readers.

Yeah, I was just taking a cheap shot at the low attention span trolls who can't be bothered to read 3 paragraphs let alone an entire instruction manual. I'm not sure what would happen if you sat them down in front of an actual book.

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One think i thought was weird from reading the trtanscript of the call (and yes its still just as bad) was the whole "mafia shakedown" thing, he asked for a favor to investigate crowdstrike, and tossed a bit about biden at the end, its still just as bad, but I really hate how everything has to be over sensationalized, I really think this is just so democrats can say "see we tried to impeach him!". I am not defending trump in any way, just saying.

I don't see how it's even being considered a shake down. We have two presidents saying it's not that and there was no pressure, but then we're listening to someone that hates Trump who overheard something some other people were saying. I'm not sure about you, but I'll take the word of the two presidents over some bystander who doesn't know how to mind their own business.