Far Right Presidential Candidate Wins in Argentina

[Foxi4]

We don't have any modern examples to go by because it's obvious to everyone what happens when you repeal even the most basic of regulatory oversight and all social safety nets. American and Chinese corporations/sweatshops will swoop in to fill the void, demand everyone work long hours for near slave wages, and do little to nothing to improve living conditions. It'd be naive to claim that Milei and his inner circle don't have the means or intent to profit off of that, as well.

I disagree with this premise. The biggest hurdle in establishing a more libertarian government is the prior existence of a bloated one. It is natural that a government would not pursue measures that put it out of work. Of course that’s operating on the idea that a “libertarian government” is a defined style of governance, which it isn’t. It’s a particular quality a government can have. Governments can be more or less authoritarian or libertarian, in the same way as they can lean left or lean right. It’s an adjective that can apply to any style of governance, not a specific model.

Chinese sweatshops exist in collaboration with the government and with its blessing, not in its absence. Claiming that the Chinese government has anything in common with libertarianism is politically illiterate, it cannot result in a serious conversation. Chinese scandals are a result of a lack of adequate oversight, not lack of regulation. The 2008 milk formula scandal comes to mind (for those not in the know, it concerned formula adulterated with melamine in order to create the appearance of having a higher protein content than it really did, specifically to conform with government regulations). You’re not dumb enough to work with this premise, so you should probably retreat from it. I certainly won’t pursue it - it’s too silly even for me. I like a good joke, but c’mon.

 

[Xzi]

Chinese sweatshops exist in collaboration with the government and with its blessing, not in its absence. Claiming that the Chinese government has anything in common with libertarianism is politically illiterate, it cannot result in a serious conversation.

Last I checked, Chinese oligarchs and libertarians both love money. Beyond that it's just branding. China is a state capitalist economy but continue to call themselves communist. Milei can both shrink Argentina's government and enrich himself in the process, for that matter the former can even aid in the latter. He can call his government a unicorn for all the difference it makes, behind the curtain it's reasonable to expect there will always be shady shit going down.

 

[tabzer]

Coincidentally, do they happened to be composed by humans, too? You might be onto something.

 

[RetroGen]

I really don't know how to parse whatever you are trying to imply.

People in Argentina generally don't give a fuck regarding what happens in Canada, not out of disrespect or anything, people in Argentina just have more urgent problems to attend to as to care for whatever goes on in Canada.

Seems I did not clearly express myself.

I was making a comparison between protests in Canada and Argentina and attitudes toward using the law to crack down on them. Foxi4 appeared to find the Convoy protest funny, yet supports using the law to stop protesters in Argentina, a view which conveniently aligns with his rightwing politics, acting as an apologist when rightwing figures quash democracy.

I called the Convoy protesters disinformed hooligans because I've read/heard many interviews with these protesters. Their rhetoric is full of conspiracies and mis/disinformattion about vaccines, science, medicine, academia, big government, Trudeau, etc.... largely fed by social media. Almost every one I encountered had a worldview that was not based on reality. And they behaved like hooligans, making a mess, being belligerent, blocking the roadways, and interrupting the daily lives the of citizens for over a month, all based on mostly false information. This is the impact of rightwing populist grievance politics. Funny, it is not.

I listened to a long interview with a bunch of Convoy people a year ago but can't find the link. But this gives a flavor for their views: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/faith-convoy-truckers-1.6350538

Doesn't have much to do with the situation in Argentina, but does pertain to how political ideologies drastically color people's perception of fairness, justice, and democracy.

 

[Xzi]

Coincidentally, do they happened to be composed by humans, too? You might be onto something.

That's why reasonable people can agree that power shouldn't be concentrated into the hands of just a select few, nor should political power be wielded without oversight. Cutting government down to just himself and a few of his closest buddies is like advertising with a neon sign that he plans to engage in corruption.

 

[tabzer]

Seems I did not clearly express myself.

I was making a comparison between protests in Canada and Argentina and attitudes toward using the law to crack down on them. Foxi4 appeared to find the Convoy protest funny, yet supports using the law to stop protesters in Argentina, a view which conveniently aligns with his rightwing politics, acting as an apologist when rightwing figures quash democracy.

I called the Convoy protesters disinformed hooligans because I've read/heard many interviews with these protesters. Their rhetoric is full of conspiracies and mis/disinformattion about vaccines, science, medicine, academia, big government, Trudeau, etc.... largely fed by social media. Almost every one I encountered had a worldview that was not based on reality. And they behaved like hooligans, making a mess, being belligerent, blocking the roadways, and interrupting the daily lives the of citizens for over a month, all based on mostly false information. This is the impact of rightwing populist grievance politics. Funny, it is not.

I listened to a long interview with a bunch of Convoy people a year ago but can't find the link. But this gives a flavor for their views: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/faith-convoy-truckers-1.6350538

Doesn't have much to do with the situation in Argentina, but does pertain to how political ideologies drastically color people's perception of fairness, justice, and democracy.

A couple things:

1st. Afaik the convoys were in direct response to government vaccine mandates. You may believe that people should obey their government, but that is authoritarian. That's not a mis/disinformation issue. The interviews that won't be mentioned are those of truckers who willingly got vaccinated, but still felt their freedom was encroached--their personal freedom of making the choice being devalued. This is how you should know that you are citing propaganda.

2nd. This is my opinion, but Argentina's situation, being dire, is difficult to laugh about--while Canada's 1st world problems parallel self-depreciating humor. Regardless, nobody has said that it's okay to block traffic. When pressed, @Foxi4 clarified his position; so I don't really see why you think there is still confusion.

That's why reasonable people can agree that power shouldn't be concentrated into the hands of just a select few, nor should political power be wielded without oversight.

I agree with this. However, I am disappointed with any "leading examples". Every government is a shady club as far as I can tell.

Cutting government down to just himself and a few of his closest buddies is like advertising with a neon sign that he plans to engage in corruption.

If the government is bloated with opportunists who are trying to profit off of a country's strife, cutting the fat can look like that. Of course it could also be true that it is another grift. I don't see any reason to trust them. But really, it's not even a factor if you trust them or not, is it?

 

[RetroGen]

Don't really feel like getting into the weeds on this... but will say that the Convoy folks appeared to feel that they were as oppressed as Argentinians, based on the social media propaganda they've been fed. This is what's laughable. Personally, I don't like vaccine mandates, but, in the case of a pandemic, consider them a necessary evil for the public good. I got another COVID shot plus influenza vaccination recently... because I follow science and medicine, not rightwing social media.

 

[Xzi]

I don't see any reason to trust them. But really, it's not even a factor if you trust them or not, is it?

Not really, what's most important are actions. I just find it silly that there are those who believe we can't predict what comes next after a "fuck you I got mine" system is implemented in a country where 99% of the population does not, in fact, have theirs yet. Dollarizing the economy is one thing, but allowing corporations to set their own minimum wage and working hours/conditions is entirely another. Especially after removing all regulations on the housing market and destroying the healthcare system as well.

For all intents and purposes, Jeff Bezos (or some other billionaire) very well might end up owning the entire country.

 

[tabzer]

Don't really feel like getting into the weeds on this... but will say that the Convoy folks appeared to feel that they were as oppressed as Argentinians, based on the social media propaganda they've been fed. This is what's laughable. Personally, I don't like vaccine mandates, but, in the case of a pandemic, consider them a necessary evil for the public good. I got another COVID shot plus influenza vaccination recently... because I follow science and medicine, not rightwing social media.

You follow your beliefs. Being unable to verify the science, mainly due to the fact that it's shielded by proprietary protections, you latch on to the closest available authority of the idea. You think authoritarianism is a necessary evil. Others don't.

 

[RetroGen]

You follow your beliefs. Being unable to verify the science, mainly due to the fact that it's shielded by proprietary protections, you latch on to the closest available authority of the idea. You think authoritarianism is a necessary evil. Others don't.

Oh, so those peer reviewed scientific and medical articles I've read are a cover up for the great global vaccine conspiracy? And the various medical people too, sharing their experience with hordes of unnecessary unvaccinated deaths? My data set is large and based upon evidence, in multiple domains. But it is not based on what I read on Tik Tok or facebook... that's the stuff that illustrates why I need to find reliable factual sources.

I'm a left libertarian. Sometimes state coercion can be justified, though those cases must be limited and subject to scrutiny. A pandemic is one such example.

 

[tabzer]

the Convoy folks appeared to feel that they were as oppressed as Argentinians

I think the question you are having is whether or not the people who are talking feel the same way. From what I see, they do not. It looks like a strawman in such respect.

Oh, so those peer reviewed scientific and medical articles I've read are a cover up for the great global vaccine conspiracy? And the various medical people too, sharing their experience with hordes of unnecessary unvaccinated deaths? My data set is large and based upon evidence, in multiple domains. But it is not based on what I read on Tik Tok or facebook... that's the stuff that illustrates why I need to find reliable factual sources.

I'm a left libertarian. Sometimes state coercion can be justified, though those cases must be limited and subject to scrutiny. A pandemic is one such example.

I'm not saying that your risk assessment is wrong. I am saying that it is risk assessment. Some people would rather live and die for their own arrogance than to live under the subjugation of another's. Everyone needs reliable factual sources, which is why there is a problem with any secrecy or confidentiality--regardless of the rationalization. Any block in access is a reason to suspect and scrutinize. I cannot be convinced that you are truly following the science when all you are really doing is following the channels of information.

 

[RetroGen]

Science is a human enterprise, fraught with the complexities and limitations therein. Sure, I'd like to get corporations, governments, lawyers, etc... out of science, but that's how it works. I'm aware of the situation and potential bias. It is merely a dream to be able to access "pure science", without any sort of institutional or human influence. Science isn't perfect, but it is the most reliable method we have.

Will put it this way, my decisions about vaccination are based upon the best medical and scientific information available to me, imperfect as it may be. However, most of the Convoy people hold views based on mis/disinformation, most of which are easily falsifiable.

 

[tabzer]

Science is a human enterprise, fraught with the complexities and limitations therein. Sure, I'd like to get corporations, governments, lawyers, etc... out of science, but that's how it works. I'm aware of the situation and potential bias. It is merely a dream to be able to access "pure science", without any sort of institutional or human influence. Science isn't perfect, but it is the most reliable method we have.

I almost agree. The problem I see is that while you acknowledge that there maybe interference of scientific representation by corporate interest, there is no distinct measure as to "how much is too much". Personally, the fact that Pfizer was endorsing all of your media outlets should have been a huge red flag, yet they still somehow turn into saviors and avoid scrutiny. Because "pandemic". If "pandemic" is important enough to subjugate citizens to authoritarian measures, it should also be important enough to open up Pfizer's books and open-source that shit.

However, most of the Convoy people hold views based on mis/disinformation, most of which are easily falsifiable.

It's possible. My interpretation is that they didn't trust their government, and they had a variety of ideas of what their government could be doing, in lieu of actual access to information. I don't blame them for that. I think it is natural to distrust governments if you learned about what they have been capable of.

 

[RetroGen]

I almost agree. The problem I see is that while you acknowledge that there maybe interference of scientific representation by corporate interest, there is no distinct measure as to "how much is too much". Personally, the fact that Pfizer was endorsing all of your media outlets should have been a huge red flag, yet they still somehow turn into saviors and avoid scrutiny. Because "pandemic". If "pandemic" is important enough to subjugate citizens to authoritarian measures, it should also be important enough to open up Pfizer's books and open-source that shit.

Sure, I'm all for increased transparency and the free sharing of knowledge and technology, especially regarding matters of public health. But that's capitalism at work, using the government to protect intellectual property for private profit. Even the term 'intellectual property' is problematic... but that's a further digression.

 

[tabzer]

Even the term 'intellectual property' is problematic... but that's a further digression.

That's actually something I am more interested in, and I think, closer to the core of the issue. "Intellectual property" is more important than human rights--that is what I feel like we are being told with recent events.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

I’m very specific in what I’m asking. Your reading comprehension is poor.

It is very sad that you're so illiterate and deluded.

I was merely saying that communicating with him is difficult, and the difficulty isn’t so much a matter of a difference of opinion, but rather language itself.

Only difficult for you, because of your usual doublespeak and double standards. Plenty of people knew, even heard, what the drivers did in Canada - it was on every newspaper and on some TVs too. Your memory may be exceptionally poor, but it is a rule that you're not supposed to do-over well-known events, unless you're trying to misinterpret them. I can communicate (here at least) with pretty much anyone else who isn't a far-right gaslighter, so... all this pretend superiority you display is nothing more than a pat on your back for yourself and your feel-good syndrome.

was merely saying that communicating with him is difficult, and the difficulty isn’t so much a matter of a difference of opinion, but rather language itself. People can’t have a conversation if they don’t know what they mean to say. I’d much rather have a fruitful conversation about Argentina than explore the intricacies of language structure.

I accept your surrender and your fantasy of being able to explain anything, mr "think-tanks" who are in fact partisan libertarian organisations posted as "super partes sources".

Hole in one. You’re not here to contribute, you’re here to fawn and fanboy over everything I say or do.

Missed again! your imaginary golf is as bad as your (imaginary) language skills.

Seems I did not clearly express myself.

No, you were very clear, only deliberately misinterpreted with some elaborate make-believe excuses.

Now, to redirect the thread to the topic without stroking the ego of some moderator on a power trip of delusions...

It is interesting how no one has mentioned that the financial and economic crisis of argentina was not, in fact, a fault of progressive governments, but a fault of Macri's administration. so why argentinians thought someone even more deranged and further on right could fix it, is in fact a mystery.

Disclaimer: CEPR is an US think-tank with a progressive outlook. However, it is also well-grounded in reality, unlike some others, and actively avoids fact-spinning or "spinning the facts", for the deluded self-proclaimed language "experts" here who seem unaware of what a living language is.

 

[RetroGen]

It's possible. My interpretation is that they didn't trust their government, and they had a variety of ideas of what their government could be doing, in lieu of actual access to information. I don't blame them for that. I think it is natural to distrust governments if you learned about what they have been capable of.

Sure, I don't like Trudeau or the Liberal government either. Canada is not the worst democracy in the world, but it could certainly be better. However, I distrust the Conservatives even more. Former Conservative PM Stephen Harper muzzled scientists and stopped the government collecting data that has historically been used to better target and improve government policy, and he and his rightwing brethren may talk about "freedom" but they also consolidate power, subvert democracy, and increase authoritarianism in government. So, Convoy folks seeking freedom from vaccine mandates are likely to bring about a significant reduction in personal freedom for others. Something to bear in mind is that most leftists are anti-authoritarian, so nothing like Soviet or Chinese communists.

 

[tabzer]

It is very sad that you're so illiterate and deluded.

Only difficult for you, because of your usual doublespeak and double standards. Plenty of people knew, even heard, what the drivers did in Canada - it was on every newspaper and on some TVs too. Your memory may be exceptionally poor, but it is a rule that you're not supposed to do-over well-known events, unless you're trying to misinterpret them. I can communicate (here at least) with pretty much anyone else who isn't a far-right gaslighter, so... all this pretend superiority you display is nothing more than a spectacle for yourself and your feel-good syndrome.

I accept your surrender and your fantasy of being able to explain anything, mr "think-tanks" who are in fact partisan libertarian organisations.

Missed again! your imaginary golf is as bad as your (imaginary) language skills.

No, you were very clear, only deliberately misinterpreted with some elaborate make-believe excuses.

Now, to redirect the thread to the topic without stroking the ego of some moderator on a power trip of delusions...

It is interesting how no one has mentioned that the financial and economic crisis of argentina was not, in fact, a fault of moderate governments, but a fault of Macri's administration. so why argentinians thought someone even more deranted and further on right could fix it, is in fact a mystery.

Disclaimer: CEPR is an US think-tank with a progressive outlook. However, it is also well-grounded in reality, unlike some others.

We are as strong as our weakest link.

Sure, I don't like Trudeau or the Liberal government either. Canada is not the worst democracy in the world, but it could certainly be better. However, I distrust the Conservatives even more. Former Conservative PM Stephen Harper muzzled scientists and stopped the government collecting data that has historically been used to better target and improve government policy, and he and his rightwing brethren may talk about "freedom" but they also consolidate power, subvert democracy, and increase authoritarianism in government. So, Convoy folks seeking freedom from vaccine mandates are likely to bring about a significant reduction in personal freedom for others. Something to bear in mind is that most leftists are anti-authoritarian, so nothing like Soviet or Chinese communists.

You are afraid of the outcome of standing up for liberty? It's possible that conservatives are trying to leverage it, but it feels like you've surrendered.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Sure, I don't like Trudeau or the Liberal government either. Canada is not the worst democracy in the world, but it could certainly be better.

Which government of canada did you like then, since apparently it is more interesting to talk about Canada than ARgentina

 

[Foxi4]

*Spaghetti*

Three different people from three different countries and three different walks of life read what you had to say and all three walked away thinking you said something different. None of the three are *certain* what you meant. This is also the third time you’re responding, and for a third time you waffle instead of actually answering the question nobody invited you to answer. That’s why talking to you is, in my estimation, a waste of time. Don’t bother, we’re not going to have a debate.

Last I checked, Chinese oligarchs and libertarians both love money. Beyond that it's just branding. China is a state capitalist economy but continue to call themselves communist. Milei can both shrink Argentina's government and enrich himself in the process, for that matter the former can even aid in the latter. He can call his government a unicorn for all the difference it makes, behind the curtain it's reasonable to expect there will always be shady shit going down.

You’re right, people generally like to be well-off as opposed to poor. I was unaware that this is evidence of shadiness or wrong-doing. There are plenty of ways to make money, both good and bad.