http://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/

Kate has collected and answered the most common questions she's gotten regarding Fusée Gelée. Most notably she explains the three "types" of FG hacks, software, hardware (temporary) and hardware (permanent).

Enjoy!

Kate herself responded to this thread on page 26, thanks Kate!

There's a lot more here than I can easily respond to, so apologies if I miss posts or gloss over points.



This is correct-- while there likely will be software chains around for these things in the future, I don't see them as coming along as quickly as f-g. We don't have a non-coldboot exploit chain at all for 5.0.0-- and we haven't looked yet, as we've had other things to focus on and coldboot works. We do have one for 4.1.0, but it's centered around a couple of exploits that we don't want to burn-- we're hoping to use them to get an opportunity to poke around inside T214/Mariko.



I don't view you as particularly hostile, no. I don't know if challenge is generally a good thing-- sometimes you do have to accept that other people have different ethics or viewpoints from yourself and let that pass, especially if they're just doing stuff for fun-- but I don't view your post as hostile.



Jamais Vu (1.0.0 TrustZone hack) isn't my bug, but has been written up, and is just awaiting someone with the skills to have time to do a public interpretation. Déjà Vu is currently centered around the exploit I mentioned above, and we definitely want to hold onto that for as long as it's applicable. It's entirely a Switch bug, too, so I don't see it as being something that needs responsible disclosure.



For Déjà Vu, absolutely. (explained in last quote)



I don't agree that things like tweeting are ego. This is something I work on because I find it a lot of fun to hack on things, and there's definitely an aspect in which it makes me happy when seeing the results of things makes other people happy. There's also an aspect in which I hope that showing these things are possible inspires people to want to learn e.g. reverse engineering. This stuff is cool; and I want to share the excitement with others and lift them up as much as I can.

You don't have to believe me on that or like that that's my goal. I won't hold it against you if you don't.



I honestly support people updating when it makes sense; and I recognize that there's a conflict between holding back information and enabling others to make reasonable decisions about that. I don't like or feel good about secrecy, and I know it has implications. I've tried to be as clear as I can about the costs regarding updating without crossing the line into giving things away.



I think we've been pretty clear that 4.1.0 will eventually see a non-coldboot, software-only exploit with the same level of power. That's actually been posted on the ReSwitched Discord's FAQ for months, but I know the message gets skewed as its gets communicated over to other places. That's part of why I'm here, now-- I want to help clear things up.

The interactions between the operating system and the bootloader-- say on reboot-- are actually fairly limited; and knowing what any of them are is enough to point people at the particular section of bootrom that's vulnerable. That's why I'm not commenting on Fusée Gelée and how it relates to software-only solutions right now. I have said e.g. above that since there's no public way of getting the privileges necessary to run things, 4.1.0 isn't going to see a pure software solution that the public can use at the time that f-g is released. Software exploits will likely come in time; and it's possible we'll come up with things that are even easier than f-g.



I'm not sure if they'll take it seriously enough. I don't know how they are internally-- but I can't just assume they'll fail to do anything and skip disclosure. Honestly, I don't think a "security advisory" is really a bad thing, either-- there are definitely applications of Tegra chips that I and/or the public don't know about. If giving NVIDIA notice gives them time to explain exactly what's dangerous and allow their customers to remove and replace units from places where the vulnerability can cause harm, I consider that a win, and well worth delaying some public switch hacks by a few months.

I'll also say that my fear that vendors won't take the vulnerability seriously is a huge reason I'm so keen to get things out there-- and why I provided a date after which I'll tell the public what's going on that I've said was non-negotiable. I want to make sure this doesn't get hidden, and that people understand exactly what f-g can and can't accomplish, to minimize FUD while also letting people understand the actual risks are associated with using a vulnerable device.



It changes this from an exploit that's going to be usable before the affected people know it's a thing to something that people may have a chance to react to. Making the vulnerability public without disclosure really increases the odds someone is capable of using it to do bad.

I didn't really give NVIDIA a chance to sell-off stock; though. I've said publicly multiple times that there are bugs in Tegra processors well before NVIDIA reached out to me seeking disclosure. If anything, I think telling the public that these vulnerabilities exist while pursuing disclosure helps developers interested in using Tegra chips in the future ask the right question.



I've already said that while pure-software stuff is doable on 4.1.0; it'll be a wait. As far as I'm remembering, the only part of the chain that could require multiple tries to work is PegaSwitch, which is our browser-based entry point, and I haven't even tried the browser entry point that'll eventually be public to see how reliable it is. SciresM did the work to get our non-coldboot exploit working on 4.1.0; not me.



Yeah, that's hard-- especially as everyone has a different view as to how inconvenient things are. I don't know of a way to communicate this better without more details.

Incidentally, the 'inconvenience' verbiage came from SciresM and I discussing our respective views on updating. I think SciresM is more towards the opinion that people should hold back more often, where I'm more of the opinion that updating can be a good and reasonable option sometimes. The way we wound up phrasing things is a compromise between views.



(I'm going to assume this meant "on the hacking side". If not I'm not sure what hacking site you're referring to.)

Updating to latest just closes the possibility of using software exploits launched from Horizon, which can make setup more difficult. I know you'd like to know how much, but I unfortunately don't have a good way of qualifying that. As I've mentioned, if you're suffering from not being able to use your 3.0.1+ Switch, you probably do want to upgrade and just risk things being more inconvenient in the future. Worst comes to worst, if you decide you can't tolerate the inconvenience, you upgrade and then wind up having to figure out a modchip.

The downgrade protection fuses literally mean nothing to a system with f-g, which can entirely skip the downgrade check. Incidentally, SciresM actually accidentally bricked one of his systems in a way such that it was always failing the downgrade checks, and he's been able to use f-g to get that system up and running again.



I don't think that's clear at all, nor do I want to confirm or deny this. Sorry.



I think you're making a bunch of assumptions here, and that's maybe not a great idea. I'm not saying you're necessarily right or wrong; just that I don't think your assumptions are founded.



I don't think this contradicts. This is talking about vulnerabilities that aren't f-g; not because f-g doesn't work on 4.1.0, but because it's possible we may come up with vulnerabilities that are even nicer on 4.1.0 in the future.



I'm being as clear as I feel I can, and adding clarifications e.g. here where I think it helps. There will be different names for the the ways you can use f-g eventually; and I'll be fully open about everything once the summer rolls around and I'm not putting the disclosure timeline in jeopardy.



I know and have said about that this "bring your own exploit" business makes development exclusive, and that's exclusionary and I really don't like it-- I just don't see a way around it. I would love to get more developers and more perspective, and that's why my release date for f-g is tied to my disclosure timeline and not in particular to Atmosphère's release.




I've tried to point out approximately what the difficulty would be for some of the options to kind of provide this, but this is a hard thing to accomplish. In this case, providing details that are more specific really points a finger at vulnerability details, so there's not much I'm comfortable sharing. I've shared what I could-- as a data point, some of the other teams have outright stated that they think I've shared too much already and made things obvious. I don't agree or necessarily care about their opinons, but c'est la vie.



Well, this isn't the case. This has been disclosed to Nintendo, too-- as NVIDIA shares their vulnerability findings with downstream customers. It's more general malicious actors that I'd be worried about.



See above-- but I don't think I'd advise specifically updating to 4.1.0 unless that gives you enough access to the games you want.



I'm also super glad that we can do a lot of our work in the open. I hope there's a lot more of it in the future-- and I'd love to stream some of it.



I find the requirement disheartening as well, but I think this is the right way to do things, for now. I've explained my rationale above; feel free to ask questions.



I'm not sure why people are against communication, here. There were definite benefits to talking about f-g in the first place; including that it demonstrates that Tegra chips are vulnerable-- which hopefully influences buying decisions in the future and puts pressure on NVIDIA to seek as much of a fix as they can. After that there seemed to be definitely benefits to talking about more details, even in the limited sense that I'm able to. I've tried to give people more information than the nothing they would have had so they could have more of an idea whether it's be a good idea to e.g. pre-order a modchip or update their system. I know it can be frustrating to not get full disclosure, and that more information would help people to make a better or more conclusive decision, but full disclosure isn't an option until this summer. I don't think that's a reason to hold back information.



I don't have specific answers to your questions, unfortunately-- but I think it sounds like the main purpose of this Switch is as a gaming device and maybe you should upgrade and enjoy playing games with your son.



I don't think that asking for clarification is criticism. It might be rude to push me to answer something I said I wouldn't, but I don't think there's harm in answer.



I don't think I've said anything about opening the console or not. See above for my views on updating?



I'm not sure where you got this impression, or why you're confident about things enough to claim you know about the internal values or working of ReSwitched. This is also easily disprovable just from public information--Hedgeberg has tested out f-g on stream. I don't see it as great opsec to enumerate how many people have access to the vulnerability, but we've long had a policy of only giving exploit details to those who actually want to know them and are in a position where they can use them to help. This is a basic security precaution and not about trust.

I'm actually not sure how this is relevant to the broader discussion. Based on your post history, I can tell that you strongly support TX and the option they're providing, and you're welcome to that, but I think throwing around generic unfounded criticism of RS doesn't do much good and distracts from me answering community questions.



I don't think they're obviously more convenient, as they exist right now. They're both inherently however-tethered-you-consider-PegaSwitch, take a bunch of time to run, and rely on a pegaswitch entry point.



That's not correct-- everyone on a current hardware revision will be able to install and use CFW the day it's released, if they're willing to put in the effort and potentially take on some minor risk.



I'm actually not sure what you mean by this entire post? Sorry about that-- I'd love to address your ideas, but unfortunately I can't figure out your meaning.



That was about me having fun by trying to see if a DIY, cheap modchip option is reasonable. It turns out it is. As you've noted, it's not necessary on any firmware. I just really like the idea that the open exchange of knowledge -- especially when profit's not a motive -- can result in creation of neat options for the community. ^-^



Yep; that's exactly what it means.



I don't think this has been at all implied-- and you'd be hard pressed to find a way to make a solder-less Arduino option that even remotely fits in the Switch case.

I should also clarify that the DIY option isn't solderless.

If you have or are going to get the game anyway, you can. Those versions are pretty much interchangeable in the long-term.



Yep-- and it's possible at some point that we'll allow you to install Fake News without Puyo using f-g/Atmosphère. The original plan was to release Atmosphère for 1.0.0 first while we tried to figure out how to deal with Fusée Gelée, but we actually wound up with a disclosure schedule that was faster than we'd thought.

 

[ploggy]

Yes, you need to have the latest update to connect to the eShop.
Are you sure it will be on 3.0.0? Super Mario Odyssey requirs 3.0.1 on cartridge. I'm sure Nintendo isn't that stupid to put an Odyssey bundle with 3.0.0 on it lol.

IIRC some early Oddessy bundles did come with 3.0.0? But it's not guaranteed.

 

[brickmii82]

That this is the same way the dramas with Hykem, Team Salt, and JustPingo began. Loads of hype, with the development looking really promising, a release date given a few months away or more, the developers answering questions which makes them lauded by all and celebrated, loads of hype with everyone being really excited, then no release, devs publicly quit or just fade away, and ensuing drama/memes.

In the Wii U's case, it severely stifled the scene. With a future release date set, and a developer that people believed in, what point was there in other people also pursuing hax? But that future date comes and goes, gets pushed back, comes and goes again, pushed back again .... and in the end, there's nothing. Squat. Zilch. And all that time someone else could have actually been developing something. After Hykem and Team Salt destroyed the scene, it got lucky again when the Brazillians came in with their release out of nowhere, and the scene suddenly came back to life and loads of people worked on multiple things and stuff actually started happening. But it all could have happened two years earlier if it wasn't for the aforementioned two.

Closed development + a long future release date [i.e. not just a few days for polishing and writing documentation/instructions] is an awful combination that only hurts things. The person who starts it usually (or always?) ends up quitting the project, the amount of time that passes hurts the scene, and obviously it frustrates hundreds of potential users. If I must be brutally honest, the thing that sways me to thinking history will repeat itself is, you could have released all this information under the Reswitched banner, and never put your name to it at all (and consulted with your colleagues on what they think should be communicated, to boot). Or, you know, just not said anything until the exploit notification period had elapsed and release was imminent. If being famous wasn't on your agenda, then you would have done this. So either you're interested in fame and all will go well [my fingers are crossed for this option] or you're interested in fame and there's going to be a lot of drama in this forum in a few months. Not having fame as a priority isn't possible.

I would say I am about 65% sure, on the information I have seen so far, that come July or August, some unforseen problem is going to come up and the release date is going to be pushed back or put on hold indefinitely. And during that time, we won't see TX's solution, because they've put development on hold or canned it due to your communications to the public (as they wouldn't be making much money) and the other teams probably won't be actively working on anything, since it is a waste of time if they can wait for Reswitched's release and build on that. I want to do cool stuff with my Switch as much as the next girl so I will be incredibly happy to be wrong. In fact, everyone is welcome to quote this post come release and rub my nose in it as much as they want - because that means I'll have CFW on my Switch, so I'll be absolutely ecstatic and nothing will be able to bring me down.

.....And that's why I'm a fan of yours too. Well said. I see your point wholeheartedly and hope that history doesn't repeat itself either. But, I'll keep an open mind and remain hopeful, and after/if the release comes I assuredly won't rub your nose in anything. I just think that since Kate is here, and responding to questions, we should continue the questions and concerns and stay patient in the time leading up to release. Like yours here. This is a great point of concern, and honest, forthcoming dialogue does more than unexplained skepticism.

 

[Crusard]

IIRC some early Oddessy bundles did come with 3.0.0? But it's not guaranteed.

Mario Odyssey needs 3.0.1 with serial 000, and 3.0.2 with serial 002

 

[ktemkin]

Hey kate, you mentioned in your faq that each firmware version is gonna have some advantages and disadvantages over the other when fusée glee is released , can you explain what does that actually means, why does it have to be kept a secret?

short summary for pre-Mariko units:
1.0.0: has a nice non-coldboot solution, and is the most likely to get a Holy Grail CFW-launching exploit in the future
<3.0.1: has enough power to avoid a hardmod immediately, even if you'll probably want to just do the hardmod 'cuz the hardmod's so easy
<=4.1.0: will eventually see a hardmod-less solution, but will need that 'minor hardmod' at launch
>4.1.0: that 'minor hardmod' is required; though we may find a solution to avoid this in the future

 

[ploggy]

Mario Odyssey needs 3.0.1 with serial 000, and 3.0.2 with serial 002

Yes, the game comes with 3.0.1 but the Switch console came with 3.0.0 preinstalled in earlier Oddessy bundles..

 

[Kioku]

short summary for pre-Mariko units:
1.0.0: has a nice non-coldboot solution, and is the most likely to get a Holy Grail CFW-launching exploit in the future
<3.0.1: has enough power to avoid a hardmod immediately, even if you'll probably want to just do the hardmod 'cuz the hardmod's so easy and
<=4.1.0: will eventually see a hardmod-less solution, but will need that 'minor hardmod' at launch
>4.1.0: that 'minor hardmod' is required; though we may find a solution to avoid this in the future

Well, this is some clarification for sure.

 

[TheCyberQuake]

short summary for pre-Mariko units:
1.0.0: has a nice non-coldboot solution, and is the most likely to get a Holy Grail CFW-launching exploit in the future
<3.0.1: has enough power to avoid a hardmod immediately, even if you'll probably want to just do the hardmod 'cuz the hardmod's so easy and
<=4.1.0: will eventually see a hardmod-less solution, but will need that 'minor hardmod' at launch
>4.1.0: that 'minor hardmod' is required; though we may find a solution to avoid this in the future

Thanks for the info. Seemshow I plan to do the minor hardmod anyway, I may just update my console.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

short summary for pre-Mariko units:
1.0.0: has a nice non-coldboot solution, and is the most likely to get a Holy Grail CFW-launching exploit in the future
<3.0.1: has enough power to avoid a hardmod immediately, even if you'll probably want to just do the hardmod 'cuz the hardmod's so easy and
<=4.1.0: will eventually see a hardmod-less solution, but will need that 'minor hardmod' at launch
>4.1.0: that 'minor hardmod' is required; though we may find a solution to avoid this in the future

Thank yoooooou

 

[CptPotato]

short summary for pre-Mariko units:
1.0.0: has a nice non-coldboot solution, and is the most likely to get a Holy Grail CFW-launching exploit in the future
<3.0.1: has enough power to avoid a hardmod immediately, even if you'll probably want to just do the hardmod 'cuz the hardmod's so easy and
<=4.1.0: will eventually see a hardmod-less solution, but will need that 'minor hardmod' at launch
>4.1.0: that 'minor hardmod' is required; though we may find a solution to avoid this in the future

Thank you for finally giving concrete info. Since my console's on 4.1.0 and I'll need the minor hardmod anyway, I guess I'll just update for now.

 

[Gnarmagon]

is the Hardmod detectable by Nintendo ?

 

[Deleted-355425]

is the Hardmod detectable by Nintendo ?

assume yes... always.

 

[Chris_Highwind]

short summary for pre-Mariko units:
1.0.0: has a nice non-coldboot solution, and is the most likely to get a Holy Grail CFW-launching exploit in the future
<3.0.1: has enough power to avoid a hardmod immediately, even if you'll probably want to just do the hardmod 'cuz the hardmod's so easy and
<=4.1.0: will eventually see a hardmod-less solution, but will need that 'minor hardmod' at launch
>4.1.0: that 'minor hardmod' is required; though we may find a solution to avoid this in the future

Oh. That's a disappointment.

 

[subcon959]

Woo I guessed right. Anyone over 3.0.0 should just update and enjoy online access!

 

[charlieb]

Oh. That's a disappointment.

How so?. Looks good, esp for 1.0.0 users

 

[Deleted-355425]

meh, bring on the hardmod... i do the tiny soldering.

 

[subcon959]

meh, bring on the hardmod... i do the tiny soldering.

In this case it will be tiny tweezering

 

[Chris_Highwind]

How so?. Looks good, esp for 1.0.0 users

Maybe so, but for everyone above 3.0.0, we might as well just update and enjoy online access, because unless we take apart and risk damaging a $300 game system that some of us can't afford to replace, and could barely afford to buy in the first place, we're not getting homebrew.

 

[Deleted-355425]

Maybe so, but for everyone above 3.0.0, we might as well just update and enjoy online access, because unless we take apart and risk damaging a $300 game system that some of us can't afford to replace, and could barely afford to buy in the first place, we're not getting homebrew.

A few screws and bridge a few bits, it will be fine, honestly.

 

[subcon959]

Maybe so, but for everyone above 3.0.0, we might as well just update and enjoy online access, because unless we take apart and risk damaging a $300 game system that some of us can't afford to replace, and could barely afford to buy in the first place, we're not getting homebrew.

Well, it does say 4.1 will eventually get the other solution just not at launch.

 

[Lacius]

Am I understanding things correctly that the only coldboot option at the time of release (for any system version, pre-Mariko) will require the "easy hardmod"?