My take on the recent gay marriage bill in New York

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MEGAMANTROTSKY

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APOLOGIA AND/OR RANT: I am a Marxist and will likely stay one in the foreseeable future. I am also a fervent supporter of the LBGT movement. If you do not like either of these positions, tough. For those who would like to discuss gay marriage here, welcome! This is my first blog post and I wanted to try and make it elaborate. I will not pretend that I have thought everything out yet. What follows is my impressions and conclusion from reading articles on the subject. I have only referenced two because they are the most obvious to my case. Enjoy.

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In order to understand the limitations of the gay marriage bill in New York state, it is appropriate to appreciate the social and political context it was created in. The United States is, and has been entering a profound crisis that is, at its root, embedded in the capitalist system upon which it stands. The common refrain of the bourgeoisie and their apologists is typical. "There's no money." "We need to make sacrifices." One gets a sense that the media, while denouncing and vilifying communism on the one hand, demands that the masses make "collective" efforts to give up what little restitution they have left, on the other.

What is the result? The political power of the American proletariat has been gutted by the leadership of the union bureaucracy, in conjunction with the speculators of Wall Street. Obama's entire withdrawal "plan" will leave 68,000 US troops inside the impoverished, war-torn country into 2011--roughly double the number of US soldiers and Marines who were deployed there when the so-called Democratic president took office at the beginning of 2009. The dirty and illegal colonial war has gone on now for eight years. The masses are disgruntled by Obama's capitulation to the policies of his predecessor. The right wing responds by seeking to capture and seduce them by appealing to their weaknesses and their anger. The greed of the bourgeoisie and the war effort have nearly bled the American masses white. A social explosion may be close at hand.

To have positive news of social progression in the US, then--any at all--can be seen as a nearly humbug effort. But then the events at the New York Senate seems to flash a gleam of hope. Perhaps not all is lost, even in these harrowing times? Unfortunately, not yet.

The celebrations, however positive and justified, are premature. A closer examination of articles on the subject reveals a troubling paragraph: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2...oric_bill_.html
QUOTE said:
The decision [to legalize gay marriage] also came after Cuomo and legislative leaders agreed on language to ensure that religious groups cannot be sued if they refuse to cater to gay couples.

It would also block the state from penalizing, discriminating against or denying benefits to religious groups. They would not be stripped of their tax-exempt status or their property tax breaks.
In other words, churches would no be under any obligation to administer marriages. This is the worst part, to be found in this article: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57749_Page2.html
QUOTECuomo, the assembly’s majority Democrats and state senate Republicans agreed to the exemptions Friday afternoon. The key sticking point was a clause that throws out the entire bill if any part of it is voided in the courts.
This is worse than a flaw. It is my opinion that this is a fatal, Faustian bargain with organized religion. Gays gain the "legal" right to marriage and are basically prohibited from pursuing any religious opposition that may arise through the courts. The bill will be thrown out if the courts take the side of the homosexuals. This is not to mention that their marriages can only transcend boundaries in five other states. In the broad context, the bill is nearly worthless.

But this conclusion does not permit pessimism for me, contrary to those who may interpret it that way. Nor does it invalidate the struggle for gay marriage. Gay marriage may eventually be passed under capitalism, but full, human equality in this matter and others cannot be realized while capitalism survives. The bourgeoisie is by and large hostile toward the LBGT movement. They are incapable of satisfying the demands for civil rights and social equality since its existence allows their hegemonic rule. Gay marriage cannot, in the end, be realized through legislation. It must be taken by the class conscious proletariat utilizing the means that the bourgeoisie will likely force them into: Large-scale civil war.
 

MarioBrotha

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Anyways, I don't really care about what other people do with their lives. If for them their definition of living is being with another person of the same sex, that is completely fine by me. I don't see how a gay, or straight, couple living their lives would affect me at all.
I'm not going to rant at anybody, just giving my opinion.
Also, I found this Cracked article hilarious, might as well share it: Linky
 

Sterling

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Might as well put my honest opinion here.

As long as a religious rite is the go to standard in todays society, there will be no compromise. Religion is just too rigid in most places (South) to change anything like this. I'm not saying Gays should be denied the right to their pursuit of happiness. What I am saying is, that until a countrywide change is recognized to truly separate church and state from all that this encompasses, then there will truly be no solution.

Now that that is out of the way, I myself am suffering from malcontent. This country is going down the hill. It's slowed from the rapid decline with issues such as this. The current state of mind in the country is that Socialism and other derivative policies have no merit. This is not true. Much of the world's governing bodies have the best of many ideas. Some work, and some don't. A society run with pure capitalism, socialism, or another such governing body is destined to fail. The Founding Fathers themselves knew such risks, and therefore made the Constitution an amendable document. They knew they could not predict and transmit force disarm codes to nuclear warheads. The knew they couldn't see into the future. Hence this is just a step people must overcome. People must learn to Co-exist with others. Hell, we did it with desegregation, why can't we do it with homosexual marriage (no religious connotations please)?
 

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yuyuyup said:
I agree with all the islamo shit, but I do believe churches should have the right to deny, just as they can deny marrying blacks, etc. It's separation of church and state. OR NOT ? ? ? ?

It's as simple as this: people need to GROW THE HELL UP.

I am tired of discrimination and outright sexism and racism in our culture. I wish people would just more more understanding.
 

Sterling

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Schlupi said:
yuyuyup said:
I agree with all the islamo shit, but I do believe churches should have the right to deny, just as they can deny marrying blacks, etc. It's separation of church and state. OR NOT ? ? ? ?

It's as simple as this: people need to GROW THE HELL UP.

I am tired of discrimination and outright sexism and racism in our culture. I wish people would just more more understanding.
Just my two cents. Until we change the standard, there will be no true change. Even this small step forward is still a large step backwards.
 

ShadowSoldier

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Schlupi said:
yuyuyup said:
I agree with all the islamo shit, but I do believe churches should have the right to deny, just as they can deny marrying blacks, etc. It's separation of church and state. OR NOT ? ? ? ?

It's as simple as this: people need to GROW THE HELL UP.

I am tired of discrimination and outright sexism and racism in our culture. I wish people would just more more understanding.

You have to admit, from the outside of America, you can see why a lot of people and countries hate the U.S of A, right?
 

Sterling

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ShadowSoldier said:
Schlupi said:
yuyuyup said:
I agree with all the islamo shit, but I do believe churches should have the right to deny, just as they can deny marrying blacks, etc. It's separation of church and state. OR NOT ? ? ? ?

It's as simple as this: people need to GROW THE HELL UP.

I am tired of discrimination and outright sexism and racism in our culture. I wish people would just more more understanding.

You have to admit, from the outside of America, you can see why a lot of people and countries hate the U.S of A, right?
No, I honestly don't. The policies and decisions that are made for us, are not always the ones we want. Not all of us wanted to stay in the middle east. The ideas this country stood for are still valid and sound. The people running this country have it plotted into a dive, straight for the ground.

If anything, for the 200 years or so that the USA has been around, Europe and other countries have managed to nearly destroy themselves violently twice. Financial ruin looms over everything (Greece comes to mind). Several times the US has had to step in. One more thing though. The US is a very new country. In the years before, I'm sure Europe and Asia and all previously established governments have all done things that many people should hate on them for.
 

ShadowSoldier

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QUOTE said:
The people running this country have it plotted into a dive, straight for the ground.

You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

And you honestly can't see why people would hate America? Really dude? I don't hate America, but even I can see why people hate the place.
 

stinkoman

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Personally, I find it disappointing that this is even an issue. It's saddening that we're so much of a discriminative society that we care about who others love. Love is love, man, and unfortunately there's not enough of it in the world these days. So many people just want to hate people and believe that they're better than everyone else or more right by following a strict set of morals. It's fine if you wanna do that, dude, but refrain from shoving your rules on people who don't want them. How would you react to someone walking into your living room and telling you that you were wrong about what you were doing under the guise of appeasing to an entity on a higher plane of existence? Not positively, I assure you.

EDIT: Also, I personally don't like America, and, well, I live there. It's always had things I've hated about it, our policies on things like this included. Too much religious influence in the governments for my tastes.
 

MEGAMANTROTSKY

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@ShadowSoldier: It hardly takes a conspiracy theorist to see that the US is becoming steadily more pauperized with each year on account of the super-rich and their war abroad.
 

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I really just find this to an unrealistic issue.
In a country that promotes itself as a free country as well states that there is a separation of church and state, this shouldn't even be a debate nor should people have to vote a right that should have been there from the start. Marriage isn't something that is limited to the church and the church can do what it wants about it, but they can't effect the state since they don't have the right to do so.
But really this all boils down to a simple fact. Right now homosexuals are just being used as the scapegoat for the real problems, much like blacks, Communists, Japanese, Jews, Witches, ect. were in the past. I give this another 5 years and being homophobic will be looked down upon the same way as being raciest. Hatred is just a fad.
 

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It's good in my opinion. I'm a pretty large LGBT supporter and since my dad came out, I've become an even larger one. Conveniently, he lives in New York (he's still married to my mom though since they can still share benefits and stuff, but once that's not needed, an official divorce will come and both my parents will probably remarry).
 

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I have no problem with gay marriage personally, but as someone who was raised in a way that was supposed to make me an extremely religious Christian, I understand the thinking of those against it, at least somewhat, and as someone earlier said, churches should have the right to deny it if they so choose. The country practices separation of church and state, so while there is absolutely no reason for a gay couple not to be able to get a state-recognized marriage, the government can't force churches and similar religious organizations to do this, or else they'd be breaching the policy of separation of church and state. You can change the laws, but you can't change people, especially religious people, and if someone thinks homosexuality is wrong, I can guarantee you there is no way movements and legislative policies and etcetera will change their position on the issue. I don't know the specifics on this bill and what exactly it changes, I just wanted to put in my thoughts for the sake of discussion, specifically for those that can't handle that some people dislike elements of their lives. Racism, homophobia, and similar things aren't going away any time soon, unfortunately.
 

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The whole Marxism thing is a pretty lame and tired argument. It's not Marxism that led to the USA becoming the most powerful and prospers nation in history it's the free markets. It's not Marxism that's spearheading the rise of China it's capitalism. Where ever you see the rise of Marxism in the world the common people suffer the most. Look at Cuba, or Venezuela. Marxism strips away all freedom and it leaves all the power and money to the party members. If Marxism is so wonderful then why as long as I can remember do people flee from it many times at the cost of their lives to Capitoline countries where there's freedom and opportunity? All the promises that Marxism has made have proven to be completely empty yet people always fall for the propaganda and promise of a free lunch. As far as gay marriage. Sure why not. It. What people do is there business and the government should have no say in what anyone does. The same way it it has no right to rob me of the fruits of my labor to give it to some bum that doesn't work and claims the mantel of Marxism.
 

MEGAMANTROTSKY

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@PeregrinFig: Because state-sanctioned marriage (civil unions) does not carry the financial benefits that religious marriage keeps for themselves, I disagree with your first point. In my opinion, the churches should be forced to capitulate insofar as they hold those benefits. The Catholic Church will refuse to do so, of course, because ducking out on such an issue means that official religion will have to recognize homosexuals and heterosexuals to be socially equal.

@dickfour: If you have any specific questions on what I wrote in my blog post, I would be happy to try and answer them for you. But since this is a post about the limitations of the gay marriage bill in New York, I must ask that you keep to the topic and away from your unsupported generalizations of Marxism and capitalism.

Edit: I have realized now that my interpretation of civil unions is based on an error. State-sanctioned marriage for heterosexuals confers all of the social benefits, which differ from state to state. Civil unions are actually a step below this. The primary cause of this, besides the ingrained prejudices of the bourgeoisie, is the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act.
 

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MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
@PeregrinFig: Because state-sanctioned marriage (civil unions) does not carry the financial benefits that religious marriage keeps for themselves, I disagree with your first point. In my opinion, the churches should be forced to capitulate insofar as they hold those benefits. The Catholic Church will refuse to do so, of course, because ducking out on such an issue means that official religion will have to recognize homosexuals and heterosexuals to be socially equal.
Equality before the state is right and proper. But peoples religious views are only interfered with in the great murderous dictatorships of this world. So what we'll have thought crime. The USSR was a perfect example. China also, you can join the state sanctioned version of a religion where you have no freedom of thought or worship. Or you can risk arrest and torture for worshipping in secret.
 
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