My take on the recent gay marriage bill in New York

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MEGAMANTROTSKY

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@Miss Panda: Your rejoinder fails to address the crux of my argument, but I admit I should have been more clear. First off, civil unions are hardly a sign of "equality before the state". They cannot transcend most state borders in the US and in some of the worst cases employers will refuse to recognize the union, despite its state-sanctioned status. If you Google this in regards to New Jersey, a whole plethora of uncomfortable stories come up. Civil unions and the state have proven to be nearly useless in addressing the struggle for gay equality because they are bound hand-and-foot by concessions to the Catholic Church. That having been said, why not simply make civil unions equal with that of religious marriage? It will not happen under capitalism, because making civil unions equal with religious marriage would make them a competitive option, which the Church will not allow.

As for your second point, I find your analogy to be nearly ahistorical. It's true that the USSR had suppressed the Russian Orthodox Church (I cannot respond in regard to China, since I have little knowledge of China). Unfortunately, the reason why it was suppressed requires a bit more explanation than being a symptom of "great murderous dictatorships". The Russian Orthodox Church had openly collaborated with the forces of capitalist restoration (the Whites) during the Russian Civil War. Before that, they collaborated with the feudal Tsarist regimes which aimed to terrorize the proletariat using a terror group called the "Black Hundreds." The catalyst was probably set when Lenin made his Separation of Church and State law in 1918, which deprived them of property and stripped them of their state privileges. In my opinion it is entirely appropriate that the Church was suppressed. This is not because I am opposed to freedom of religion (and I'm not), but because the Church has typically been used as an instrument of right wing reaction in service to the capitalists in secular affairs; a glance at the Vatican's vacillation with Hitler is enough to show this. Their record against fascism is one of vacillation and pussyfooting; they were fully informed of the Nazi holocaust and did nothing. In short, the so-called religious freedom drum that the Catholic Church has beat bloody has interfered completely with social and secular demands. Stalin later rehabilitated the Orthodox Church in his campaign to reshape the USSR in the name of national chauvinism.

Today, the Church is attempting to come to terms with gay marriage by holding a monopoly on all of the social benefits that it allows in its own nuptial law. It has already been shown that civil unions are incapable of combating this monopoly. In continuing this the Church is not merely practicing its "religious views", but using their religion as a shield to deprive homosexuals of the social rights which the state has no interest in giving up, since they are basically in cahoots. I will be blunt. The inequality of civil unions and religious marriages is a classic example of the "separate but equal" jargon employed by the segregationists during the struggle for black civil rights. They are both part of a broader struggle against all social inequality as the economy worsens and the workers are deprived of what little they have left. Allowing this to fester is a violation of one of the most progressive constitutional tenets that the American bourgeoisie has already repeatedly trampled upon: the separation of church and state. The Catholic Church has no right to keep for itself that which should be accessible to everyone.
 

Miss Panda

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MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
@Miss Panda: Your rejoinder fails to address the crux of my argument, snip
You are defending the indefensible.
I think it goes to the very heart of your agenda and I stand by it. I certainly don't need a history lesson from someone who supports an extremist ideology that is responsible for devastating half of Europe. Murderous dictatorships have suppressed freedom of thought and freedom of religious expression throughout the ages. And as you have made clear you support no freedom of thought or expression unless it fits in with your ideology. You don't care about the gay community you care about forcing a totalitarian ideology on everyone. That you would defend the inhuman treatment of people in the USSR sickens me.

And talking about their record on Nazism. I suggest you look at your own country's record on that. The day after Pearl Harbour pure self interest.
I believe in equality for all citizens before the state. But I will never support sick totalitarian ideologies that seek to control peoples thoughts or freedom of expression.
That you would openly support brutal suppression of innocent people in someone else's country, tells me all I need to know about you. Still it is easy to play at being communist and jump on every passing bandwagon when you and/or your family haven't had to deal with the reality of life under a dictatorship.
 

MEGAMANTROTSKY

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Miss Panda, since my reply ended up being far in excess of what I planned, I have placed it in spoiler tags. "Tl;dr" it if you wish. I do not really care at this point.
@Miss Panda: I admit that your response surprised me. This is not because anything you said about me is correct, but precisely because at the outset it leaves me with little to say. You have given no specific criticism of what I've said, but only what interests you believe I'm representing. I will try to address all of your accusations.

Your position is that the protection of religion is a de facto moral principle that should not be altered or violated under any circumstance. But this is not all. Your position would require me to recognize that the interests of the Catholic Church are one and the same as their parishioners. But holding such a position would require the falsification of the Catholic Church's history and prevent any real understanding of what their current social role in society is. In summary, there is a clear dichotomy between the interests of religious officialdom and that of their followers, and it is observable all throughout history. The Church certainly was not acting the interests of their priests in the early centuries when they campaigned to make celibacy a permanent feature of their life. It was actually a plot to gain ownership of former Church property and prevent the priests from passing the buildings down to their offspring, who may have chosen to make them secular. Without this historical context, it would be just as easy with your logic to declare that all Catholic priests are cowardly and molest children. Your lack of historic knowledge makes it impossible to have any real appraisal of any of this. Your logic works thus: Religious expression means freedom of expression. When the backward Church, who up until this point was collaborating with the advocates of austerity and finance capital, is suppressed, this immediately means that freedom of expression has been unfairly restricted. Socialism, Fascism, and Totalitarianism are one. QED." This is not to mention that the Catholic Church and religion in general has functioned as the champion of the right wing in contemporary times, as an anti-scientific anachronism. It hardly needs to be said that your argument so far is misguided in this respect. You are throwing blanket assumptions and do not care where they fall. Similarly, one can only imagine the results if Lincoln had not chosen to unceremoniously crush the slave-holding landowners at the height of the civil war (which certainly ruffled the feathers of not a few moralists of jurisprudence).

You use the same tactic (of throwing blanket assumptions) against my support of Marxism. Since I am an "extremist," (which I certainly won't deny) and the "heart of [my] agenda" "defend the indefensible" it must follow that everything else I have to say to back up my arguments must be some mark of Cain--or in this case, Stalin--and I am to be branded as "sickening" to you. Your impression, however, is partially my own fault. I must make clear that I do not, and have never supported Stalinism (under whom the bulk of "inhuman" crimes was composed) and I certainly do not support fascism. A consistent socialist perspective would necessarily place any progressive into conflict with the USSR under Stalin. I thought that I would be free of such accusations since my screen name referenced Leon Trotsky, whose battle against Stalin has nearly become legendary. At the same time, it would be a grave mistake to place Stalin as a representative of Marxism. His policy was one of vacillation and zigzagging in the interests of the privileged party bureaucracy for which he protected. He stifled the worker's revolutions in Spain and China in the interests of some abstract petty-bourgeois "Popular Front". I'd go further, but I don't want to turn this into another history lesson. You also cannot simply tar me simply for being an "extremist". Historical change throughout time has been one of revolution and conflict which necessarily requires extremism. But it is obvious that this distinction also has escaped you. To sum up: If you are comfortable of accusing me of being a fan of suppression and "forcing a totalitarian ideology on everyone," then it is clear you have no idea what Marxism or assessing historical development is about in any sense. You will not be able to make the charge of "1984ism" stick upon me nor that of an advocate of "Big Brother". I do not support totalitarianism.

Your next points, to put it bluntly, are disgusting. You have absolutely no proof that I "don't care about the gay community". Furthermore, it does not take a socialist to recognize that homosexuals have been given a raw deal by the state in the interests of preserving religious monopoly over marriage benefits. Every post I've made in defense of gay marriage has been in defense of the gay marriage as a social demand, or haven't you noticed? This is part of my "extremism," after all. I do hope that this is also not "indefensible" to you.

I will not deny that the attitude of the US state in the Second World War was one of "self-interest". But your bringing this up is nothing more than a deflection from the Church's crimes. Clearly, from your perspective, spreading national guilt over American war crimes is a far more effective rebuttal! Does this mean that I should take issue with you for how "your" government's Winston Churchill professed open admiration of Hitler on several occasions, or how the current coalition government is working to destroy and privatize the NHS? Do not be foolish. The US government is no more "mine" than the British government is "yours". Never assume that resident of a certain country must also be a supporter of that country. And just so we're clear, I oppose US imperialism in all of its manifestations.

It is also true that I have not lived or endured under a totalitarian dictatorship. But I do not see how that automatically disqualifies me from saying anything about it. Most contemporary historians would no doubt be displeased to hear you on this issue. I am also with you on equality of all citizens before the state. The only point I was trying to get across is that the state struck a deal with official religion, throttling that equality and keeping it for themselves. But no matter. I believe I have said more than enough about it already.

I hope that I have explained myself to you. I am not sorry for being a Marxist, but I am sorry that this is so long. This is all I have to say to you.
 

ars25

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ah in cali it is allowed and they tried to bring it down but the court rejected twice once a supposed gay judge and his successor and gay marriage is still legal for a while until the anti gay people get an upper hand in my opinion if they don't mess with your every day life I'm fine especially with lesbians
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lex luthor

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MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
lex luthor said:
Gay marriage should not be allowed period.
And why is that?

Hmm..

1. Most religions consider homosexuality a sin. Virtually every religion in the world, including the major ones in this country, consider homosexuality unacceptable. It is offensive and a swipe to the religious freedom of the majority to have to recognize a relationship they consider sinful. The legal system in the United States evolved out of the laws contained in the Bible. We shouldn't go even farther to tear down those laws.

2. It would weaken the definition and respect for the institution of marriage. The 50 percent divorce rate has already weakened the definition of marriage. We shouldn't be taking further steps to define what marriage is. A law allowing gay marriage would increase the number of joke or non-serious marriages, such as a couple of friends who want to save on taxes. Marriage is the most sacred institution in this country, and every society considers it the joining of a man and a woman. It makes biological sense since only a man and woman can pro-create.

3. It would further weaken the traditional family values essential to our society. The building blocks of our society and the thing that makes it strong is the traditional family of man, woman, and children. It is what has sustained us through two world wars, terrorist attacks, a Great Depression, and numerous other challenges over the centuries. While friends & lovers come and go, your family is always there. The main reason our culture and values have started to crumble is the weakening of families. Introducing another form of "family" would only make the situation worse.

4. It could provide a slippery slope in the legality of marriage (e.g. having multiple wives or marrying an animal could be next). Gay rights activists claim that these marriages should be allowed because it doesn't hurt anyone, but it could start a chain reaction that destroys the whole idea of marriage. If someone wants to marry his dog, why shouldn't he be able to? What if someone wants to marry their brother or parent? What if someone wants to marry their blow-up doll or have 10 wives? Unless we develop some firm definition of what a marriage is, the options are endless. If these options sound absurd, remember that all it takes is a few activist judges to use the statute to open the door. It doesn't matter if 95 percent of the population disagrees with the policy, one judge can interpret the case the way he or she wants and use the doctrine of stare decisis to impose a law on everyone. Do you remember how two judges in California recently declared the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional? If the decision hadn't been overturned, it would have prevented millions of children from being able to say the pledge every morning, despite the fact that 95+ percent of Americans disagreed with the decision.

5. The gay lifestyle is not something to be encouraged, as a lot of research shows it leads to a much lower life expectancy, psychological disorders, and other problems. Studies show that homosexuals, for a variety of reasons, have life expectancies of approximately 20 years less than the general population. Just like a lifestyle of smoking, drinking, etc., unhealthy lifestyles should be discouraged.
 

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I'm not going to take any side since I'm fora staff but imho if it doesn't affect you then you can let someone else handle it. My whole take on the thing is that plus healthcare premiums went up already anyway so if same sex couples are permitted it isn't going to make much of a difference in our economy.
 

MEGAMANTROTSKY

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You could at least cite that you brought that answer from here: http://www.balancedpolitics.org/same_sex_marriages.htm
Your objections are, sadly, a regurgitation of conservative and nationalistic vitriol. Particularly repugnant is the "marry his dog" analogy; as if homosexuals and bisexuals are of an alien species in opposition to heterosexuals! What you are essentially saying that the religious institution should retain a monopoly on the family within modern society, and that any attempt to meet the gays halfway (i.e. their "lifestyle") will lead to the destruction of "traditional family values" and a low quality of life.

I don't even know what to say to such drivel. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Tell Bob Jones I said "hi".
 

lex luthor

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MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
You could at least cite that you brought that answer from here: http://www.balancedpolitics.org/same_sex_marriages.htm
Your objections are, sadly, a regurgitation of conservative and nationalistic vitriol. Particularly repugnant is the "marry his dog" analogy; as if homosexuals and bisexuals are of an alien species in opposition to heterosexuals! What you are essentially saying that the religious institution should retain a monopoly on the family within modern society, and that any attempt to meet the gays halfway (i.e. their "lifestyle") will lead to the destruction of "traditional family values" and a low quality of life.

I don't even know what to say to such drivel. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Tell Bob Jones I said "hi".

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
 

The Catboy

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lex luthor said:
Mine does...
Your ignorance is painful. Each one of your arguments are the same uneducated crap that is pumped out all the time.
Quite honestly if gay marriage is going to destroy the foundation of family and marriage, then why are countries that legalize it doing so well with no problems in the "foundation of marriage and families."
I want real proof behind these arguments. Give some hardcore facts.
 

lex luthor

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A Gay Little Catboy said:
lex luthor said:
Mine does...
Your ignorance is painful. Each one of your arguments are the same uneducated crap that is pumped out all the time.
Quite honestly if gay marriage is going to destroy the foundation of family and marriage, then why do countries that legalize it doing so well with no problems in the "foundation of marriage and families."
I want real proof behind these arguments. Give some hardcore facts.
Human Preservation.
 

Foxi4

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MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
QUOTE said:
The decision [to legalize gay marriage] also came after Cuomo and legislative leaders agreed on language to ensure that religious groups cannot be sued if they refuse to cater to gay couples.

It would also block the state from penalizing, discriminating against or denying benefits to religious groups. They would not be stripped of their tax-exempt status or their property tax breaks.
In other words, churches would no be under any obligation to administer marriages. This is the worst part, to be found in this article: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57749_Page2.html
QUOTECuomo, the assembly’s majority Democrats and state senate Republicans agreed to the exemptions Friday afternoon. The key sticking point was a clause that throws out the entire bill if any part of it is voided in the courts.
This is worse than a flaw. It is my opinion that this is a fatal, Faustian bargain with organized religion. Gays gain the "legal" right to marriage and are basically prohibited from pursuing any religious opposition that may arise through the courts. The bill will be thrown out if the courts take the side of the homosexuals. This is not to mention that their marriages can only transcend boundaries in five other states. In the broad context, the bill is nearly worthless.

That's sort of the point. Take the Catholic Church for instance. It is conscidered a sin to be in a homosexual relationship in this religion. This bill protects the gays, but also the religious group concerned. Law may not force given religious officials to issue a marriage, and the other way around, religious groups may not put pressure on the government to legalize/penalize gay marriage. It's best to keep politics and religion as far from eachother as possible.

You're gay, you want a marriage, fine. Get married. You want a marriage *on religious grounds*, make sure that you fit a given religion's *requirements*. Don't even *try* to sue - you're in for a fail.

I believe this is a fantastic way to make the system work.
 

Magmorph

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lex luthor said:
A Gay Little Catboy said:
lex luthor said:
Mine does...
Your ignorance is painful. Each one of your arguments are the same uneducated crap that is pumped out all the time.
Quite honestly if gay marriage is going to destroy the foundation of family and marriage, then why do countries that legalize it doing so well with no problems in the "foundation of marriage and families."
I want real proof behind these arguments. Give some hardcore facts.
Human Preservation.
Everyone on earth could be gay. We have other means of getting women pregnant.
 

The Catboy

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lex luthor said:
A Gay Little Catboy said:
lex luthor said:
Mine does...
Your ignorance is painful. Each one of your arguments are the same uneducated crap that is pumped out all the time.
Quite honestly if gay marriage is going to destroy the foundation of family and marriage, then why do countries that legalize it doing so well with no problems in the "foundation of marriage and families."
I want real proof behind these arguments. Give some hardcore facts.
Human Preservation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogacy
 

MEGAMANTROTSKY

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lex luthor said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
I'm not convinced. In my opinion, a single line from the bible is very weak evidence if you wanted to make a case against gay marriage. And so far, all I have heard from you is what other people have written on the subject. I haven't heard a single explanation that has actually come from you.

@Foxi4: "Law may not force given religious officials to issue a marriage, and the other way around, religious groups may not put pressure on the government to legalize/penalize gay marriage."
Except for the fact that the very existence of the law hinges upon abiding by the mandates of the Catholic Church. I think that certainly qualifies as "pressure" from religious groups. If you're trying to say that this bill somehow abides by the separation of church and state, then that's ridiculous. As I have said before, the Catholic Church has a political monopoly on social benefits in religious marriage, and they are keeping them at the expense of the gays, with the full cooperation of the US state. Civil unions are a second-class solution that are ultimately inadequate as secular solutions for the gays. The Catholic Church should not be allowed to keep this monopoly.
 
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