Hacking Question When will a free XCI Backup Loader be released?

  • Thread starter Deleted User
  • Start date
  • Views 45,410
  • Replies 352
  • Likes 6

Rune

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
Messages
699
Trophies
0
XP
2,476
Country
United Kingdom
i convert all nszs to xci so i can simply mount them on my other switch that’s permanently hooked up to my tv and hdd
well useful when wanting to play a bunch of random stuff on the big screen and not having to waste time installing anything
Yeah, thats literally what I do.
Even if I have a NSP thats ready to install, I go out of my way to convert them to XCI and then stick them all on the HDD. Then install any of them back to the console if I want to be able to play them on the go.

This is coming from someone who used Atmosphere first for ages, until I caved in an got SXOS purely for the sake of this convenience. So I was already able to play NSPs, convert and install XCIs on Atmosphere anyway. But I paid up for a SXOS license just for the sake of HDD loading and the convenience of XCIs.

Now I'm already happy and enjoying the best of both worlds, so whether someone makes a free XCI loader or not makes no difference to me personally.
I'm merely pushing for this for the sake of everyone else who doesnt have this privilege. Theres something that non-SXOS users are missing out on, and it would be nice if everyone was able to enjoy this for free through Atmosphere. There's no real need to shut this idea down like its wrong or something.
 

subcon959

@!#?@!
Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
5,855
Trophies
4
XP
10,154
Country
United Kingdom
This is a weird debate.. people arguing that an extra option would somehow be a hindrance? If you have no use for it (I don't) then simply ignore its existence? If someone released one today you wouldn't be obligated to use it.

I actually find it a bit odd that nobody had released one, especially a while back when it would've effectively killed SXOS. I can only assume it's not trivial to develop and/or TX paid off potential devs to not release anything.

Anyway, as I said I don't have any use for it personally. I prefer to just get a bigger sd card than deal with extra drives.
 

hippy dave

BBMB
Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
9,913
Trophies
2
XP
29,757
Country
United Kingdom
The actual fact is still that anyone who's capable of doing it isn't interested in doing it. Funny part of that is that this thread just got brought back from the dead (by a ghost, no less) after well over a year, and someone who was really bothered could probably have used that time to learn everything needed to do it. But they didn't.
 

MasterJ360

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
2,802
Trophies
1
Age
35
XP
3,473
Country
United States
I think ppl just want to mount their games on a bigger storage without having to buy multiple SD cards and swapping them. You can buy a 10TB external thats more cheaper than a 1TB SD card.
Back when most ppl believed nsp's were superior mounting xci's was still a strong reason to buy the sxos. But anyway a free xci loader wont happen otherwise it would have been by now. Free source needs more cfw devs the main problem is that we only have 1 and hes not into piracy.
 
Last edited by MasterJ360,
  • Like
Reactions: klear

KiiWii

Editorial Team
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
16,704
Trophies
3
Website
defaultdnb.github.io
XP
27,254
Country
United Kingdom
https://github.com/XorTroll/fsp-usb

I think the issue is the connotations of .xci as a purely piracy format as opposed to nsp which is a legit format used by Nintendo themselves, and the devs wanting to distance themselves.

The more tools the merrier I say.

An XCI loader or USB loading for docked would be great for AMS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: peteruk

smf

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
6,651
Trophies
2
XP
5,905
Country
United Kingdom
An XCI-run backup can run malicious code (e.g. A prodinfo bricker) that's embedded. However, if I'm using a proper NSP installer that checks if the file was signed properly, it's impossible to install an NSP with something like the aforementioned malicious code embedded in it, since that would cause it to be unsigned.

It could check the signature of XCI as well, your argument doesn't seem well thought out.

Why would releasing a free XCI loader help TX? Its the main advantage TX has over Atmosphere or any other CFW. Not wanting to provide "a better implementation" doesnt make sense. They don't need a better implementation to steal (since their own one works and is the only working one available).

If there was a free one then it obviously wouldn't be the only working one available. Someone doing a new one might come up with improvements that TX haven't (or don't need to as they don't have any competition). This could be something operational like speed, or maybe how easy it is to port between firmware versions.
 
Last edited by smf,
  • Like
Reactions: KiiWii

MasterJ360

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
2,802
Trophies
1
Age
35
XP
3,473
Country
United States
when you don't know shit don't talk pls
Dont even waste your time, the guy is pure anti sxos. He has no use for HDD mounting, and claims nobody cares for it... This thread kinda proved that wrong the demand for an xci loader is growing more than it ever was and if you came from the ps3/4 JB scene your gonna want this feature.
 

Rune

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
Messages
699
Trophies
0
XP
2,476
Country
United Kingdom
If there was a free one then it obviously wouldn't be the only working one available. Someone doing a new one might come up with improvements that TX haven't (or don't need to as they don't have any competition). This could be something operational like speed, or maybe how easy it is to port between firmware versions.
Fair point, but if you're not gonna create purely out of fear that someone will steal your work, then nothing would ever get made.
There's plenty of work done in the Switch scene without this being a concern to them. So whats so special about a XCI loader specifically that TX is more likely to steal? especially when they already have their own implementation of it?

This would be the same as no one ever creating a CFW at all, because they fear TX will steal it.
 

hippy dave

BBMB
Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
9,913
Trophies
2
XP
29,757
Country
United Kingdom
It could check the signature of XCI as well, your argument doesn't seem well thought out.
The installer app checks the nsp's signature before installing it. The xci, in the context of this conversation, is being run straight off without being installed, so no installer app to check the signature.
I don't remember but I'm assuming SX OS patches out an official sig check that would occur when running.
 

Jayro

MediCat USB Dev
Developer
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
13,040
Trophies
4
Location
WA State
Website
ko-fi.com
XP
17,226
Country
United States
People don't generally care about .XCI usage anymore than they cared about .3DS usage. Most of the people I encountered wanting to use .3DS files were people hesitant to leave Gateway, but Luma3DS natives could not have cared less. Generally speaking, Atmosphere/ReiNX natives don't seem to care either.

Many people, myself included, wouldn't use HDD storage, as it hinders or downright ruins the portability of the Switch, and the installation of an NSP file effectively isn't any different time-wise than sending an XCI file to an HDD or SD.

Considering the above, and considering that XCI files can easily be installed as if they were NSP files, XCI support is just not worth the trouble at all.

TL;DR, we have game backups already in the form of NSP files, and there doesn't seem to be any real advantage in using XCI files.
There's no need to install XCI files. Just drag, drop, and go. No messy uninstalls if you wanna change them out for new games. You just delete the XCI files and drop in new ones. I see zero advantages to NSP, since XCI does it all, but keeps things simpler.
 

Reploid

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
2,837
Trophies
2
XP
6,334
Country
Serbia, Republic of
There's no need to install XCI files. Just drag, drop, and go. No messy uninstalls if you wanna change them out for new games. You just delete the XCI files and drop in new ones. I see zero advantages to NSP, since XCI does it all, but keeps things simpler.
Upside is faster loading times, according to tests (which I subjectively confirm). That's why I only use NSP, even tho I'm on SX OS. Oh, and using NAND as well
 

Dust2dust

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
2,432
Trophies
2
XP
4,429
Country
Canada
I seem to remember reading (maybe even in this thread) that the main reason why no devs were interested in creating a XCI loader was because TX used some copyrighted code from the big N to develop their implementation, and no one wants to use the same approach and risk the wrath of Nintendo. An alternative way is probably very hard to find.
 

Lacius

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
18,099
Trophies
3
XP
18,338
Country
United States
It could check the signature of XCI as well, your argument doesn't seem well thought out.
Installing an XCI could, yes, but running them does not. We're not talking about installing XCI files.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

when you don't know shit don't talk pls
Merely using CFW can result in a ban. Merely using XCI files can result in a ban. Merely using XCI files of personal backups with the correct certificates for online play can result in a ban.
 

Lacius

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
18,099
Trophies
3
XP
18,338
Country
United States
Im not arguing semantics. You're calling it a hindrance when the only hindrance is to the person having to create the XCI loader. If thats the real issue, then say it like it is.
And its not a good analogy when you're comparing two instances that arent the same. People didnt care about Gateway because it was completely redundant. XCI loading isnt redundant. There are uses for it that NSPs cant provide.

And on the subject of being "safer", of course a signed NSP is the safest thing out there, but signed NSPs arent the only type of NSP you're installing. Homebrew games wont be signed (such as that AM2R port that was made). And correct me if Im wrong, but when people change the firmware requirements of a game and repackage the NSP, that will also no longer be signed.
Also when people convert XCIs to NSP, that also isnt signed.
The point is that with both NSPs and XCIs, you're agreeing to accept the responsibility of running unsigned code. At some point you're gonna want to, and will knowingly accept the risk that comes with it. This applies to NSPs and XCIs.
Pikabricker was distributed as a NSP also. If NSPs were so safe, then it would've been released as an XCI instead. But it tried to reach the masses, and did so as a NSP.
So the general use of NSPs arent necessarily safer. There's an option where you can choose to only use signed NSPs, but by the same token, you can also use tools to verify NCA signatures within an XCI too.
NSPs in general arent more safer.

And as I said before, by accepting to use a XCI loader, you're not picking a side and deciding to never use NSPs again. You can still use NSPs with all of it's benefits, while still using XCIs.
You're making it sound like a war when its not. This isnt really about XCIs vs NSPs. Its about people being able to use their XCIs with their NSPs.
You are arguing semantics when you create a false equivocation between "option" and "hindrance." It's not a hindrance to have the option, but the option is itself a hindrance to portability, and you already acknowledged this. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have more options, but I personally would never store my Switch games on an HDD, and a lot of people also wouldn't. My point was that, considering the objective hindrance to portability, it's not worth the price tag of SX OS for most, and most people could not care less about it.

Again, when you look at the point of my analogy, it's sound. In fact, ignoring the HDD stuff, almost the exact arguments (drag and drop without installing anything, having options, hotswapping storage, using personal dumps, etc.) were used by people crying Luma and its predecessors didn't have .3ds support. To remind you, the point of my analogy is it's largely SX OS people complaining (oddly) about missing XCI support in other custom firmwares, just as it was Gateway users doing the same thing. With an analogy, it doesn't matter that it's not exact same thing, and the slight differences you've cited don't make it a false analogy, since the main similarity I'm pointing out is still true. These are definitely comparable situations.

I enjoyed how you jumped from "XCI files are safer than NSP files" to "XCI files and NSP files are just as safe," but moving the goalposts doesn't matter, since neither statement is true, and respectfully, I knew you wouldn't get it before you responded. If I am using a decent title installer, I'm going to be barred for installing unsigned NSP files. You can talk all you want about homebrew forwarders and whatnot, but they're irrelevant to the conversation, since they're not something we're talking about trading off for an XCI alternative, and I also don't recommend their usage. If you change the software requirements of an NSP on the fly using the aforementioned title installer, the signature of the NSP is verified, and then it's installed with its version requirements changed. There is also no point in converting an XCI file to an NSP file anymore, since the aforementioned installer can check if the XCI is signed and install it like an NSP file. I'm summary, signed NSP files are safer than loading XCI files. Don't be disingenuous and say they're not.

I'm not arguing XCI vs NSP (that was you). I'm all for options. I'm arguing, however, that the option for XCI usage is largely unwanted, unsafe, and unneeded, at least so far as not making it worth the work. If someone wants XCI support, great. Use SX OS. However, most people look at the price tag and say "not worth it," and many of them say "wouldn't be worth it if it was free."

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

There's no need to install XCI files. Just drag, drop, and go. No messy uninstalls if you wanna change them out for new games. You just delete the XCI files and drop in new ones. I see zero advantages to NSP, since XCI does it all, but keeps things simpler.
I've listed some NSP advantages above (in short, portability if we are talking about HDD usage, and safety).

However, drag and drop isn't particularly convincing. The amount of time it takes to send an XCI to a device is comparable to the amount of time it takes to install an NSP over a USB connection, for example. There are no real advantages to the XCI format. Some people really want to use mounted HDD storage, I suppose, and they should use SX OS if HDD usage is worth the price tag, but most people could not care less.

Oh, and you don't have to do "messy uninstalls." You can just delete from the data management screen.
 
Last edited by Lacius,

Goku1992A

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
1,823
Trophies
1
Age
33
XP
2,630
Country
United States
The answer is there for you already dump your own game cart and you have your XCI. I don't see the need for further explanation here.

I thought SXOS was "BaD BeCaUsE oF PiRaCy" so the legal way is available.

@Lacius
If people really care about XCI loading they should either dump their own game (like they are supposed to do) or just buy a SXOS to do so. I kinda only use NSP/NSZ whatever I can get I'm a pirate as long I can play the game I don't really care what format it is in.
 
Last edited by Goku1992A,

Rune

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
Messages
699
Trophies
0
XP
2,476
Country
United Kingdom
I enjoyed how you jumped from "XCI files are safer than NSP files" to "XCI files and NSP files are just as safe," but moving the goalposts doesn't matter, since neither statement is true, and respectfully, I knew you wouldn't get it before you responded. If I am using a decent title installer, I'm going to be barred for installing unsigned NSP files. You can talk all you want about homebrew forwarders and whatnot, but they're irrelevant to the conversation, since they're not something we're talking about trading off for an XCI alternative, and I also don't recommend their usage. If you change the software requirements of an NSP on the fly using the aforementioned title installer, the signature of the NSP is verified, and then it's installed with its version requirements changed. There is also no point in converting an XCI file to an NSP file anymore, since the aforementioned installer can check if the XCI is signed and install it like an NSP file. I'm summary, signed NSP files are safer than loading XCI files. Don't be disingenuous and say they're not.

I'm not arguing XCI vs NSP (that was you). I'm all for options. I'm arguing, however, that the option for XCI usage is largely unwanted, unsafe, and unneeded, at least so far as not making it worth the work. If someone wants XCI support, great. Use SX OS. However, most people look at the price tag and say "not worth it," and many of them say "wouldn't be worth it if it was free."
What? Im not moving the goal posts. I said NSPs can be safe but not all NSPs are. There are instances where you'd want to install unsigned NSPs, at which point they're just as risky as XCIs.
If you're gonna talk about taking precautions by sticking to signed NSPs only, then by that same token you can also check all your XCIs to make sure they're signed as well before you use them.
And yes, you are arguing XCI vs NSP. Cuz while I'm talking about the idea of implementing XCI usage alongside NSPs, you're talking about how we dont need XCIs cuz NSPs are apparently better. As much as Id like a free XCI loader, I wouldnt sacrifice the use of NSPs for it.
 

Lacius

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
18,099
Trophies
3
XP
18,338
Country
United States
What? Im not moving the goal posts.
You went from saying "XCI usage is safer than NSP usage" to saying "Okay, XCI usage isn't safer than NSP usage, but NSP usage isn't safer than XCI usage." That's textbook moving of the goalposts. In fact, you did it without conceding that you were wrong about how XCI usage can cause malicious code to be run. Respectfully, the use of goalpost-moving and sidestepping makes you come off as disingenuous.

Feel free to say it doesn't matter that you moved the goalposts, but don't argue that you didn't. You demonstrably did.

I said NSPs can be safe but not all NSPs are.
If you are using a good NSP installer, unsafe NSP files are blocked from being installed automatically. One doesn't have the same protection when running XCI files. Thus, NSP files are safer than XCI files in principle.

There are instances where you'd want to install unsigned NSPs, at which point they're just as risky as XCIs.
There is no instance in which a person would reasonably want to install an NSP file that's potentially unsafe. Let's look at each example you're likely to bring up:
  1. Unaltered games: You wouldn't want to install an unaltered game that's unsigned, because that means it has been altered in one way or another.
  2. Homebrew forwarders: I don't recommend using them, but if you want to use a homebrew forwarder, you can make your own very easily. So, there is no circumstance requiring you to install something unsafe. These are also irrelevant, since they have nothing to do with XCI alternatives that would hypothetically be safer or less safe.
  3. Games altered to run on lower system versions: Good title installers do this automatically and on the fly after verifying correct digital signatures, so there isn't a case when one would need to install a game that has been manually altered in this manner. Also, if you do this yourself, you know it's not malicious.
  4. XCI to NSP converted games: Again, good title installers install XCI files as if they're NSP files, all while verifying their signatures. There's no reason to convert an XCI to an NSP. Also, if you do this yourself, you know it's not malicious.
In summary, when using a good title installer that verifies signatures, NSP files are inherently safe, and it's virtually impossible to brick with this protection on. On the other hand, XCI files don't have this protection when running them without installing them, and you would have to check manually. That makes NSP files safer in principle.

If you're gonna talk about taking precautions by sticking to signed NSPs only, then by that same token you can also check all your XCIs to make sure they're signed as well before you use them.
The former is done automatically; the latter has to be done manually. Please do not argue that there's any real brick risk when I install an NSP file. You're going to pretend you didn't by moving the goalposts and sidestepping the issue, but that's what you argued, and you're wrong. For the reasons I explained above, merely installing an NSP file is also safer than merely running an XCI file.

And yes, you are arguing XCI vs NSP.
No. My entire argument has been: Most people couldn't care less about XCI loading because XCI loading carries no real advantage over NSP installation aside from HDD usage, which most people also couldn't care less about. Aside from the "Which is safer?" argument, which you brought up, I haven't said anything to argue XCI vs NSP.

As I already said, if a person wants XCI usage, great. If it's worth the price, buy SX OS. For most of us though, it's not worth the price, and we probably wouldn't use them even if the use of them was free. That's why there's no free XCI loader. There's nothing about this sentiment that's "XCI vs NSP."

Cuz while I'm talking about the idea of implementing XCI usage alongside NSPs, you're talking about how we dont need XCIs cuz NSPs are apparently better. As much as Id like a free XCI loader, I wouldnt sacrifice the use of NSPs for it.
I'm arguing that we don't need XCI loading because NSP files are effectively just as good. There's a difference.

I think I've said all I have to say on the topic publicly. If you want to continue this conversation, please send me a private message.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deleted User

Imancol

Otak Productions
Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
1,376
Trophies
0
XP
2,773
Country
Colombia
Having all your XCIs on a HDD isnt made redundant with the portability of the device. You can store all your XCIs on the HDD just like how you would on a PC, except I can still play them all on the TV. And if I want to take any of the games away with me, I can install the XCI to the nand or mSD card. Nothing is "hindered" here. Its basically giving you a whole new option of convenience.

And the 3DS comparison isnt the same. 3DS flash carts used mSD cards for storage. When you can insert that same mSD card into your 3DS and install CIAs, its pretty much the same thing.
But when you have a 2TB USB drive plugged into your dock on SXOS, I cant just switch to Atmosphere and carry on using that same 2TB drive.
The only way this becomes the same without a free XCI loader is if someone creates a way to mount the HDD as the storage device when docked, and then allow us to install our NSPs onto it.

And even then theres still the worry about not always knowing what you're installing and potentially risking a brick. I dont ever have to install XCIs before testing them and therefore never have to worry about it causing a brick.
Have you ever tried connecting your HDD (laptop) via OTG to the Switch? If it really works, at least with SX OS, I suppose if it would be very useful, at least for .NSP installations to the HDD from Atmosphere.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

The only thing I have found a great opportunity to backup without the need .XCI or NSP, is LayerFS, which is there, redirecting content to your MIcroSD to replace the resources of a game you have installed (even to replace it with a game), and If this supported HDD once and for all, and with a special Homebrew that redirects to these games (if you have several), as MODMANAGER does, we would already have the first Backup Loader Freeware.

Now my question. Why nobody at this point has made the HDD for homebrew functional at least? FSP-USB is already there.
 

spkatsi

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
136
Trophies
0
XP
1,559
Country
Antarctica
Currently with banned Switch using SX-OS on FAT32 microSD. I am included among those who still have not move out of the closed source cfw due to lack of the feature described in OP.

Having a somehow technical question and this seems to be the right thread as the discussion has turned to format comparison in game backups -I do own the games. I feel comfortable in installing NSPs only in NAND (<30 GB total). Not in microSD as I am under the impression that just mounting XCis is safer to avoid possible microSD data corruption by running anything directly from there.

Please explain if I got this wrong in technical terms?
 
Last edited by spkatsi,

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
    K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2: Spend 50 hours playing the game