Far Right Presidential Candidate Wins in Argentina

[Deleted member 194275]

Argentina is facing worst inflation rate since 1990. It's now way bigger than it is in Venezuela. Unemployment is going up too. Poverty is now reaching more than the half of the population.

But the World don't care, as long as they paying the international banks, its good government.



Side note: developed countries never have surplus, but they demand the poor ones to have, makes sense...

 

[Xzi]

...What benefit does a government surplus provide after all essential government services and functions have been cut? Sounds like Milei is sleeping on a bed of cash while suffering for the average Argentinian is only getting worse. Exactly the outcome all his harshest critics predicted.

 

[Foxi4]

Full picture:
The last report from the National Institute of Statistics and Census (Indec) dating back to the first semester of 2023 showed a 40.1% poverty rate. The UCA survey also detected that indigence went up from 9.6% in the third quarter of 2023 to 14.2% in December 2023 and to 15% in January 2024, and the poverty level rose from 44.7% in the third quarter of 2023 grew to 49.5% in December and 57.4% in January, the highest figure since series began in 2004 when it stood at 54%.

With no update to the overall minimum wage or unemployment benefits and meager adjustments among just a few trade unions, the country's economic activity has been on a downward patch under the Libertarian administration which, nevertheless, boasted it had achieved a zero deficit.
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According to the center’s latest report, the increase in poverty levels in January is partly due to the devaluation of the Argentine peso applied by the Milei government shortly after taking office on Dec. 10. This resulted in an increase in the price of the country's basic basket — which includes food, services and non-food goods — and the basic food basket.

So.. not that impressive, he managed to achieve a "surplus" (a logical impossibility considering the state of the country finances but hey, if we valuing performance on a day to day basis...)

Why didn’t you post your source? Aren’t you proud of it?

https://en.mercopress.com/2024/02/19/poverty-on-the-rise-in-argentina-catholic-university-says

Milei was elected in November 2023. Your figures are primarily from Q1-Q3 of 2023 when he wasn’t even in power. The study is from a Catholic university. Didn’t know you were a fan of religious institutions.

For the record, nobody said, or even advertised, that Milei’s leadership will reduce poverty instantaneously. Argentina has many years of hardship ahead of it, these are not unexpected results. There’s a whole lot of hurt in store before things turn around.

...What benefit does a government surplus provide after all essential government services and functions have been cut? Sounds like Milei is sleeping on a bed of cash while suffering for the average Argentinian is only getting worse. Exactly the outcome all his harshest critics predicted.

A zero deficit and budget surplus is very encouraging for a country that’s drowning in debt, one that they’ll be paying off for a long, long time.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Why didn’t you post your source? Aren’t you proud of it?

That's not my source. My source is the UCA itself.

Your figures

Not my figures.

The study is from a Catholic university. Didn’t know you were a fan of religious institutions.

I'm sorry, at least this one isn't a fraudulent libertarian "think"(HAH!)-tank who ceased to exist a decade ago?

For the record, nobody said, or even advertised, that Milei’s leadership will reduce poverty instantaneously.

I don't recall asking for that. I'm just saying that a ridiculous boast over a "surplus" when all you've done is turn everything else off is not the flex Milei thinks it is.

Post automatically merged: Feb 20, 2024

one that they’ll be paying off for a long, long time.

Let's be honest, countries aren't really expected to pay off their debt. It's much more effectively used as a means to power and control over them.

 

[Foxi4]

That's not my source. My source is the UCA itself.

Not my figures.

The article matches your paragraph word for word. This is where you got the information from. When quoting an article, post the source.

I'm sorry, at least this one isn't a fraudulent libertarian "think"(HAH!)-tank who ceased to exist a decade ago?

I don't recall asking for that. I'm just saying that a ridiculous boast over a "surplus" when all you've done is turn everything else off is not the flex Milei thinks it is.

It is something to be very proud of. A government should aim at a zero deficit and zero surplus, it should spend as much as it takes in in revenues, unless it is indebted in which case a small surplus is required to balance out those books.

Let's be honest, countries aren't really expected to pay off their debt. It's much more effectively used as a means to power and control over them.

This thinking is economic cancer. This is how you end up printing money out the wazoo and inflating everything to shit. You are part of the problem. There’s something to be said about debt as an economic tool, but welcoming it and assuming that it only ever goes up is a huge issue. It’s people who followed that train of thought that made people in many countries carry their paychecks home in wheelbarrows because the currency wasn’t worth anything.

 

[Xzi]

A zero deficit and budget surplus is very encouraging for a country that’s drowning in debt, one that they’ll be paying off for a long, long time.

So Milei takes a debt that should be entirely the government's problem and turns it into everybody else's problem. That's textbook poor leadership.

 

[kevin corms]

How is someone supposed to take this thread seriously? It started from identity politics with no context whatsoever, only to divulge into a bunch of fallacy statements that make the conversation hard to even parse through. Did you come straight from reddit?

 

[Foxi4]

So Milei takes a debt that should be entirely the government's problem and turns it into everybody else's problem. That's textbook poor leadership.

The government doesn't exist in a vacuum. The government also doesn't generate any wealth, citizens do. If the previous administrations generated an unmanageable amount of debt with ridiculous spending policy, the citizens will feel the negative effects of that policy sooner or later.

 

[Xzi]

The government doesn't exist in a vacuum. The government also doesn't generate any wealth, citizens do. If the previous administrations generated an unmanageable amount of debt with ridiculous spending policy, the citizens will feel the negative effects of that policy sooner or later.

The Clinton administration is proof of concept that government can fulfill the needs of citizens while also producing a budget surplus. Why should Argentinians continue to pay taxes if they know they'll receive nothing in return?

 

[kevin corms]

The government doesn't exist in a vacuum. The government also doesn't generate any wealth, citizens do. If the previous administrations generated an unmanageable amount of debt with ridiculous spending policy, the citizens will feel the negative effects of that policy sooner or later.

https://academic.oup.com/book/8652/chapter-abstract/154652557?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Machiavelli wrote about this method of getting/keeping power hundreds of years ago.

 

[Foxi4]

The Clinton administration is proof of concept that government can fulfill the needs of citizens while also producing a budget surplus. Why should Argentinians continue to pay taxes if they know they'll receive nothing in return?

The Clinton administration is indeed a good example of a surplus being good for the country, something that you guys denied 5 seconds ago. It's also the beneficiary of the biggest technological boom in history, the Internet boom, which produced amazing and never-before-seen revenues that produced said surplus in spite of government policy rather than because of it. It's easily the biggest achievement of Bill's presidency, but whether he had something to do with it or not is up in the air and subject to debate. Argentina is not the U.S. - previous administrations have effectively gutted its economy and it will take years to recover from the damage caused. The projections so far are encouraging.

 

[kevin corms]

The Clinton administration is proof of concept that government can fulfill the needs of citizens while also producing a budget surplus. Why should Argentinians continue to pay taxes if they know they'll receive nothing in return?

House Budget Committee Chairman John Kasich should take most of the credit for that, I doubt you like the way this republican did it though. Never mind the big dot com bubble that came crashing down either, or the long term effects of what Clinton did.

https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...onaire-tied-clinton-scandal/story?id=33990683

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/cf021098.htm

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...clinton-reelection-campaign-media-downplayed/

https://theintercept.com/2021/04/27/biden-antiterrorism-and-effective-death-penalty-act/


Clinton/Bush/Biden... same policies.

You can also look at old articles and see what medias role really is. https://www.wired.com/2004/02/the-patriot-act-is-your-friend/

With Trump they borrowed from pro wrestling, they are well aware many of us don't like him... so they use that to push whatever narrative they want about anything. People who don't like him don't question anything reported about him at all, not stopping to think about the true motivation of the article.

All that said, I don't know what is to be done. It would help if people were more educated in basic psychology I guess.

Ill bow out with a 2pac song talking to Clinton.

I dont want to argue, I dont get any joy from the reality of the situation.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

It is something to be very proud of.

Not really. In the case of milei, its like if he's boasting about not being tired in his legs while being paraplegic. The only reason there is a "surplus" for 1 month is because he turned off everything functioning.

The Clinton administration is indeed a good example of a surplus being good for the country, something that you guys denied 5 seconds ago.

Not at all what happened.

This thinking is economic cancer. This is how you end up printing money out the wazoo and inflating everything to shit. You are part of the problem. There’s something to be said about debt as an economic tool, but welcoming it and assuming that it only ever goes up is a huge issue.

Again, never said that printing money and inflating everything is a viable tactic.

 

[Xzi]

https://academic.oup.com/book/8652/chapter-abstract/154652557?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Machiavelli wrote about this method of getting/keeping power hundreds of years ago.

There's a good reason "machiavellian" is not used as a compliment. As lokomelo pointed out, you're going to have a hard time convincing Argentinians that their loyalty to international banks should supersede their loyalty to their own families and friends.

The Clinton administration is indeed a good example of a surplus being good for the country, something that you guys denied 5 seconds ago.

Producing a surplus without cutting essential services and government functions is objectively a positive thing. Producing a surplus that enriches a small group of oligarchs while forcing a lower standard of living on the rest of the citizenry is the behavior of tyrants and dictators.

I too could turn a large profit by selling my neighbor's house and all his stuff without his knowledge or permission. Guess that alone qualifies me to run a country from a modern libertarian perspective.

 

[Foxi4]

Not really. In the case of milei, its like if he's boasting about not being tired in his legs while being paraplegic. The only reason there is a "surplus" for 1 month is because he turned off everything functioning.

A government so small you can barely see it. Somebody pinch me, am I day dreaming?

Not at all what happened.

It's... exactly what happened. He's the only president in recent history who posted a budget surplus. It's pretty much the best thing about his presidency, and the reason why I admire him despite the fact that he's on the opposite side of the aisle. I'm complimenting Clinton, somebody take a screenshot.

Again, never said that printing money and inflating everything is a viable tactic.

You literally just said that countries aren't expected to pay off their debts. Sound strategy to say that publicly in the event you ever look to loan some money in the future. I won't delve into the implications this belief has on money supply - they're self-explanatory.

Producing a surplus without cutting essential services and government functions is objectively a positive thing. Producing a surplus that enriches a small group of oligarchs while forcing a lower standard of living on the rest of the citizenry is the behavior of tyrants and dictators.

I too could turn a large profit by selling my neighbor's house and all his stuff without his knowledge or permission. Guess that qualifies me to run a country from a modern libertarian perspective.

The U.S. had a functioning economy at the time Clinton posted a surplus - a booming one, in fact. Argentina's economy is non-existent. That's the difference.

 

[Xzi]

The U.S. had a functioning economy at the time Clinton posted a surplus - a booming one, in fact. Argentina's economy is non-existent. That's the difference.

The difference is also that Clinton's strategy would've been massively beneficial in the long term if not for GWB pissing it all away. Milei is wholly short-sighted, and his government's surplus is the result of a strategy which can only possibly do more damage to Argentina's economy in the long term.

 

[Foxi4]

The difference is also that Clinton's strategy would've been massively beneficial in the long term if not for GWB pissing it all away. Milei is wholly short-sighted, and his government's surplus is the result of a strategy which can only possibly do more damage to Argentina's economy in the long term.

That's not what the projections indicate. According to Goldman Sachs, producing a surplus should be, I quote, "one of the cornerstones of a macroeconomic stabilization plan in Argentina". Further shrinkage was expected. Growth may or may not be observed in 2025.

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/what-does-the-future-hold-for-argentinas-economy-under-milei/

 

[Dark_Ansem]

A government so small you can barely see it. Somebody pinch me, am I day dreaming?

Maybe you. Clearly Argentinians aren't. Move there if you like it so much? Or is it only a utopia when looking from a distance, like that Canadian moron who moved to Russia?

You literally just said that countries aren't expected to pay off their debts. Sound strategy to say that publicly in the event you ever look to loan some money in the future. I won't delve into the implications this belief has on money supply - they're self-explanatory.

I didn't say I agreed with it. I'm certain however that the big lenders think so. They get much more money from endless interest AND they can hold debt as a Damocles sword. Otherwise, why would they keep giving money?

 

[Foxi4]

Maybe you. Clearly Argentinians aren't. Move there if you like it so much? Or is it only a utopia when looking from a distance, like that Canadian moron who moved to Russia?

Why would I want to move to a country that was ravaged by socialists? I already lived in a country that was ravaged by socialists, for most of my life. I wish Argentinians the best and hope that they’ll stay the course - in 10, 20 years they’ll be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

I didn't say I agreed with it. I'm certain however that the big lenders think so. They get much more money from endless interest AND they can hold debt as a Damocles sword. Otherwise, why would they keep giving money?

This may be shocking to hear, but in order for interest to matter at all there need to be repayments. If the money’s only on a spreadsheet then it doesn’t mean anything - it’s only a sword of Damocles if you can execute it. There are zero lenders on the planet who would prefer if the loans they gave out weren’t actively repaid.

 

[Xzi]

That's not what the projections indicate. According to Goldman Sachs, producing a surplus should be, I quote, "one of the cornerstones of a macroeconomic stabilization plan in Argentina". Further shrinkage was expected. Growth may or may not be observed in 2025.

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/what-does-the-future-hold-for-argentinas-economy-under-milei/

If there's only one takeaway from the last thirty years of US and world economics, it's that C-suite executives are fucking clueless. Strong economies are produced by supporting the working class, because workers are the economy. All Milei has done so far is pull the rug out from under them instead, which can only cause a decline in morale and an increase in unemployment/crime.