Homebrew Seems Neimod made a little more progress.

[gamefan5]

So having the key is illegal? I thought it wasn't and that was the reason why I thought that the companies kept it well hidden.

No, it's not illegal at all. It might be considered a "trade secret" by some courts, but AFAIK, no case revolving around a key has ever gone to court (the closest was Geohot, who settled out of court [after promising his followers he would never do such a thing...]), so there's no real case studies to reference here.

Ok that's what I thought. Thx.

 

[Foxi4]

So having the key is illegal? I thought it wasn't and that was the reason why I thought that the companies kept it well hidden.

No, it's not illegal at all. It might be considered a "trade secret" by some courts, but AFAIK, no case revolving around a key has ever gone to court (the closest was Geohot, who settled out of court [after promising his followers he would never do such a thing...]), so there's no real case studies to reference here.

Everything depends on the license - even Firmware has one. Most licenses allow normal use of the console within specifications, but forbid sharing the files, and "technically" a Private or Common Key could be considered an integral part of the system - in that case it's simple piracy, and seeing that it's also a trade secret, it's a double-felony of sorts, but as mentioned before, no actual court case ever ran its course due to such sharing.

What Neimod is sharing is completely different, observable interactions between the memory and the hardware. It's not a huge secret at all.

 

[Rydian]

Nintendo has EULA stating that it's forbidden to do reverse engineering, but you agree to the EULA only if you want to use eshop/online.

IIRC reverse-engineering is legal when using the info to develop things that interact with the original device. You know, like Game Genie and such. Not when using it to develop competing products.

They can try to ban reverse-engineering all they want, but that's just another thing on the giant pile of "shit we would rather our customers not do".

In fact, it's not even copyrighted content [...]
Him saying that the function "Read" uses the Adress XYZ is the equivalent of you saying "This 3DS is red" - it's an observation, nothing more.

Oh man, you mentioning that totally reminds me of all the game genie and PAR code FAQs I used to read for older game systems (back when the codes were just BANK:ADDR:VALUE) claiming that the codes were copyrighted and you'd get sued if you re-posted them.

Especially funny given that PAR codes for the SNES were literally BANK:ADDR;VALUE.
(GB/C and others were BANK:VALUE:ADDR IIRC, so not as funny.)

 

[Foxi4]

In fact, it's not even copyrighted content [...]
Him saying that the function "Read" uses the Adress XYZ is the equivalent of you saying "This 3DS is red" - it's an observation, nothing more.

Oh man, you mentioning that totally reminds me of all the game genie and PAR code FAQs I used to read for older game systems (back when the codes were just BANK:ADDR:VALUE) claiming that the codes were copyrighted and you'd get sued if you re-posted them.

Especially funny given that PAR codes for the SNES were literally BANK:ADDR;VALUE.
(GB/C and others were BANK:VALUE:ADDR IIRC, so not as funny.)

I think they just wanted to get their money's worth for what they found in the game code, but... no... it can't be copyrighted, that's indeed quite funny.

 

[totalnoob617]

may i say something that might sound stupid tho...isnt it a bad idea mentioning it?I mean what if Ninty tracks down neim?
i mean look at ps3...hacks where found for newer FW but none of the hackers said a thing due to sony lawsuits?
Maybe the same thing will happen for 3ds? just saying something stupid i know..

people could release a new cfw hack if they had one for ps3, the ps3 scene has gone to a monetization mode,its all about the $$ now(dongles)
sony only filed a CIVIL suit **not criminal case** against geohot ,and they dropped it, he settled out, it is legal still under DMCA to hack /jailbreak an iphone , and its is grey area as to consoles, there is no case law precedent set yet, so it is still not illegal to hack a console apple lost their case over iphone jailbreak, sony settled out with geohot , and microsoft got their case thrown out by a judge in the case against matthew crippen , so here in the states anyways , it is still technically legal , if not grey area, the only case out of those that was a CRIMINAL case was the crippen case which was criminal and civil ,all the rest were civil cases only
and anyone smart enough to be able to hack a ps3 or 3ds is certainly smart enough to be able to release something anon

 

[Anon10W1z]

To all those who are afraid of Neimod getting into trouble:

Unlike in the case of geohot, who uploaded sensitive data in the form of Keys online for everybody to use, Neimod is only documenting physical adresses that given functions utilize. This, in itself, does not lead to hacking the system nor does it allow launching backups, signing applications etc. In fact, it's not even copyrighted content - it's just his personal findings about the system, unlike a Key, which practically is a part of the firmware.

Him saying that the function "Read" uses the Adress XYZ is the equivalent of you saying "This 3DS is red" - it's an observation, nothing more.

It IS useful for the future though, as these adresses, as mentioned before, will be necessary for creating a custom SDK for the system once it's hacked, plus, it may help hackers understand their read-outs.

So having the key is illegal? I thought it wasn't and that was the reason why I thought that the companies kept it well hidden.

Didn't you hear? Nintendo literally leaked the Wii U private keys! Therefore, it wouldn't be illegal to download it, because the company is actually putting the files on its server for everyone to download.

If it was illegal, then even using NUSD would be too.

 

[gamefan5]

To all those who are afraid of Neimod getting into trouble:

Unlike in the case of geohot, who uploaded sensitive data in the form of Keys online for everybody to use, Neimod is only documenting physical adresses that given functions utilize. This, in itself, does not lead to hacking the system nor does it allow launching backups, signing applications etc. In fact, it's not even copyrighted content - it's just his personal findings about the system, unlike a Key, which practically is a part of the firmware.

Him saying that the function "Read" uses the Adress XYZ is the equivalent of you saying "This 3DS is red" - it's an observation, nothing more.

It IS useful for the future though, as these adresses, as mentioned before, will be necessary for creating a custom SDK for the system once it's hacked, plus, it may help hackers understand their read-outs.

So having the key is illegal? I thought it wasn't and that was the reason why I thought that the companies kept it well hidden.

Didn't you hear? Nintendo literally leaked the Wii U private keys! Therefore, it wouldn't be illegal to download it, because the company is actually putting the files on its server for everyone to download.

If it was illegal, then even using NUSD would be too.

1st, it wasn't nintendo, it was foxconn.
2nd. That news was totally fake as the one who posted it, clearly admitted it.

 

[Foxi4]

Didn't you hear? Nintendo literally leaked the Wii U private keys! Therefore, it wouldn't be illegal to download it, because the company is actually putting the files on its server for everyone to download.

If it was illegal, then even using NUSD would be too.

Firstly, no. Secondly, it was supposedly Foxconn that did it accidentally. Thirdly, it's not even true, the news post was fabricated. Fourthly, again, no - you download from Nintendo servers whenever you update, so *technically* NUS Downloader is in the grey zone - if you do have a Wii console, you are entitled to updates of your firmware files. If you don't, you automatically do not posess the license for said files and you cannot download them legally.

Have you noticed that redistribution of Wii firmwares is strictly forbidden and using NUS Downloader is not? Now you know why.

 

[Maxternal]

Just a hunch about the "unknown_u32" parameter on some of the functions, of those few functions he has figured out the arguments for it seems to only be used in ones that actually make changes to the file system. I'm sure it's "unknown" because the value is constantly changing and he can't seem to see a pattern. It may very well be part of some sort of constantly changing encryption key system, keeping some information encrypted even in the RAM itself so just in case someone like neimod did mod a console, there would be some things that just couldn't be figured out.

As he gets more information, though, I'm sure he could find some way to test his findings by injecting a some homebrew code based on his findings into memory and seeing if it'd run (if he hasn't been doing so already). That app might then be able to look around from the "inside" and give him further insight but this is still something that a common user with unmodified hardware couldn't even dream of doing as of yet.

 

[Foxi4]

Just a hunch about the "unknown_u32" parameter on some of the functions, of those few functions he has figured out the arguments for it seems to only be used in ones that actually make changes to the file system. I'm sure it's "unknown" because the value is constantly changing and he can't seem to see a pattern. It may very well be part of some sort of constantly changing encryption key system, keeping some information encrypted even in the RAM itself so just in case someone like neimod did mod a console, there would be some things that just couldn't be figured out.

As he gets more information, though, I'm sure he could find some way to test his findings by injecting a some homebrew code based on his findings into memory and seeing if it'd run (if he hasn't been doing so already). That app might then be able to look around from the "inside" and give him further insight but this is still something that a common user with unmodified hardware couldn't even dream of doing as of yet.

I thought along those lines, but then I figured that the key is supposed to be of 128-bits lenght - far too long to fit within a 32-bit value. Moreover, it would be rather irresponsible to put it there.

It could be just rand(); to ensure that the instruction was issued by the processor, not external hardware like Neimod's. We won't know until the hacking gods find out.

 

[MasterMan194]

Scrap backups, i want region free and a GBA emulator =)

 

[ferret7463]

Scrap backups, i want region free and a GBA emulator =)

a SNES would also be nice.

 

[TriForce_3]

Scrap backups, i want region free and a GBA emulator =)

I'd be ecstatic over region free. Get's tiring waiting on games you know have almost no chance to get localized

 

[chavosaur]

Take all your emulators and piracy idc, im in it for the homebrew man. Dont get me wrong, i cant say im not gonna download monster hunter or tales of the abyss, but im really interested in what developers can create on the 3ds if it gets hacked.

 

[Foxi4]

If you want GBA and SNES emulation on a nice, big screen, how about getting a machine that already does it perfectly fine, for example the PSP which nowadays sells for next to nothing?

I put my expectations higher - I will only be satisfied with Saturn, Nintendo 64, PSX and (wishful thinking, the 3DS isn't nearly beefy enough to make it playable) the Dreamcast. Give me that and perhaps some good old MAME and I'm sold, running to the nearest store to get a 3DS.

 

[Rydian]

Yeah if you want emulation, grab a PSP 2000 or earlier 3000 model.

The potential for homebrew on the 3DS is great, but it will be a long time before we see fluent emulation on it (for things later than, say, the NES)... whereas you can get a PSP today.

 

[Foxi4]

Yeah if you want emulation, grab a PSP 2000 or earlier 3000 model.

The potential for homebrew on the 3DS is great, but it will be a long time before we see fluent emulation on it (for things later than, say, the NES)... whereas you can get a PSP today.

You know that, I know that, but...

inb4NOBECAUSESONY!

Most smartphones are pretty reliable at emulation too, so a smartphone+gamepad attachment or the Xperia Play are also good choices.

 

[chavosaur]

If you want GBA and SNES emulation on a nice, big screen, how about getting a machine that already does it perfectly fine, for example the PSP which nowadays sells for next to nothing?

I put my expectations higher - I will only be satisfied with Saturn, Nintendo 64, PSX and (wishful thinking, the 3DS isn't nearly beefy enough to make it playable) the Dreamcast. Give me that and perhaps some good old MAME and I'm sold, running to the nearest store to get a 3DS.

This is exactly what i was thinking. But like rydian said, gonna be awhile unfortunantly. Btw, i beleive if a vita was hacked, it may be strong enough for dreamcast emulation no?

 

[Foxi4]

If you want GBA and SNES emulation on a nice, big screen, how about getting a machine that already does it perfectly fine, for example the PSP which nowadays sells for next to nothing?

I put my expectations higher - I will only be satisfied with Saturn, Nintendo 64, PSX and (wishful thinking, the 3DS isn't nearly beefy enough to make it playable) the Dreamcast. Give me that and perhaps some good old MAME and I'm sold, running to the nearest store to get a 3DS.

This is exactly what i was thinking. But like rydian said, gonna be awhile unfortunantly. Btw, i beleive if a vita was hacked, it may be strong enough for dreamcast emulation no?

Only the PSP Mode was hacked, and only in User Mode, so compatibility is limited. Once it does get hacked fully though... It's even more capable than that. I dread to even think of the buckets of awesome that will be poured over the system once Vita kernel access is achieved, it's easily the strongest handheld device on the market in its price range and form factor.

 

[chavosaur]

If you want GBA and SNES emulation on a nice, big screen, how about getting a machine that already does it perfectly fine, for example the PSP which nowadays sells for next to nothing?

I put my expectations higher - I will only be satisfied with Saturn, Nintendo 64, PSX and (wishful thinking, the 3DS isn't nearly beefy enough to make it playable) the Dreamcast. Give me that and perhaps some good old MAME and I'm sold, running to the nearest store to get a 3DS.

This is exactly what i was thinking. But like rydian said, gonna be awhile unfortunantly. Btw, i beleive if a vita was hacked, it may be strong enough for dreamcast emulation no?

Only the PSP Mode was hacked, and only in User Mode, so compatibility is limited. Once it does get hacked fully though... It's even more capable than that. I dread to even think of the buckets of awesome that will be poured over the system once Vita kernel access is achieved, it's easily the strongest handheld device on the market in its price range and form factor.

Yup the emulation capability of the vita will be amazing. Sonic adventure on the go, amazing homebrew, all the capability of games to be played? Of course this is blasphamy to be talking about this in the 3ds forum... must stop before hardcore nintendo fans chew me out. Oh and again a total agree with smartphones and tablets and their emulation ability. Its amazing what a simple little phone can do, i remember how psyched i was when i found out my iphone could partially emulate psx.