Take-Two takes legal action against reverse engineered re3 & reVC projects

header-grand-theft-auto-gta-iii-vice-city-codigo-ingenieria-inversa-reclamo-dmca-rechazado.jpg

Back in February 19th, 2021, Take-Two sent DMCA notices to the reverse engineered projects re3 and reVC, (hosted on GitHub). After the takedowns, the project leaders filed a counter-claim, effectively restoring the projects and their whole repositories.

Today, September 2nd, 2021, Take-Two has taken legal action in the state of California, USA, claiming the projects and whole repositories are infringing on the copyrights of their games, Grad Theft Auto III & Grand Theft Auto: Vice City.
Not only is Take-Two suing the main repositories, but also against forks and derivative work (and the devs behind them) that sent the counter-claim back in February, like the PS Vita & Nintendo Switch forks.

The resolution of this case might be one of the biggest legal battles of recent years in terms of gaming, homebrew, hacking and reverse engineering, as other projects that have flourished under reverse engineered premises could be affected in the event of Take-Two winning the case.

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linuxares

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I already quoted that, it's "code derived from reverse engineering shipped machine code".
Not originally written.

This also isn't comparable to the sm64 de-compilation since that only offers patches to the original code.
"code derived from reverse engineering shipped machine code" this doesn't mean it's 1:1...
 

smf

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But do they? Is it 1:1 the exact same code? Or does the code just do the exact same thing?

In the case of mario 64 they definitely is the same code as it can produce a bit identical binary.

From the description from re3 themselves I am confident it will have some copyright code transferred over, but as I don't have the original source code I will have to wait until it's bought as evidence in court.

"code derived from reverse engineering shipped machine code" this doesn't mean it's 1:1...

It doesn't have to be 1:1. Things like variable and function names or the placement of brackets aren't copyright anyway, so just because they change doesn't affect whether it's copyright.
 
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XDel

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It's funny how they will invest all this money into ruining the lives of a handful of individuals, not so they can reclaim lost profits, of which they are loosing none considering how relatively small and niche the homebrew/port scene is compared to the commercial market; but so they can exorcise power and control, which is what this is really about. The corporations should not have the same rights as citizens, and reverse engineering isn't theft.

I have only bought one GTA game in my life, but now I want NOTHING to do with this company.
 
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izy

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I already quoted that, it's "code derived from reverse engineering shipped machine code".
Not originally written.

This also isn't comparable to the sm64 de-compilation since that only offers patches to the original code.
It builds the following ROMs:

  • sm64.jp.z64 sha1: 8a20a5c83d6ceb0f0506cfc9fa20d8f438cafe51
  • sm64.us.z64 sha1: 9bef1128717f958171a4afac3ed78ee2bb4e86ce
  • sm64.eu.z64 sha1: 4ac5721683d0e0b6bbb561b58a71740845dceea9
  • sm64.sh.z64 sha1: 3f319ae697533a255a1003d09202379d78d5a2e0
This repo does not include all assets necessary for compiling the ROMs. A prior copy of the game is required to extract the assets.

they literally have a section for compiling the game which like re3 requires an original copy of the game because it requires game assetts which both dont include for copyright reasons

so yeah ofc its gonna have copyright binaries but only when compiled because it grabs them from original game
 
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wormdood

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API can't be copyrighted, an HLE of a BIOS would not be similar to how the original function worked on the original hardware. The IBM PC bios is a good legal example of that.

But legally it's very different to documenting an API and implementing similar functionality and decompiling a game.



please stop harassing me with your incorrect posts.

https://www.gerrishlegal.com/legal-blog/2020/4/7/reverse-engineering-when-can-users-lawfully-decompile-software#:~:text=Higher-level reverse engineering such,which is the protected element.
you do realize they'll be trying this case in the USA right? ... not in the EU ... Yeah the EU is way more relaxed about the laws involving video games in general that's why you can fail at hacking your console brick it and send it back to the company to get it fixed in the EU but not in the USA
 

smf

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you do realize they'll be trying this case in the USA right?

I actually have no idea what country re3 are in (EDIT: ok it's in the suit https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.384429/gov.uscourts.cand.384429.1.0.pdf the parties are all around the world)

I don't think there is any appreciable difference in any berne convention country though that would allow you to reverse engineer a program and distribute it in source code form.

Reverse engineering being legal and what you do with what you reverse engineered are two different things.

This would be a good place to start reading...

https://www.eff.org/issues/coders/reverse-engineering-faq
 
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codezer0

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This kind of bullshit from the Houser brothers, is unfortunately expected. I'm just more surprised that they haven't had their mental disorder level table flipping and tried to just straight up arrest everyone involved in the project sooner.

Considering those bastards automatically sue everyone they fire, and try to arrest anyone that even so much as mods their games now, I was expecting them to jump on this project well before Covid.
 

MrHuu

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It builds the following ROMs:

  • sm64.jp.z64 sha1: 8a20a5c83d6ceb0f0506cfc9fa20d8f438cafe51
  • sm64.us.z64 sha1: 9bef1128717f958171a4afac3ed78ee2bb4e86ce
  • sm64.eu.z64 sha1: 4ac5721683d0e0b6bbb561b58a71740845dceea9
  • sm64.sh.z64 sha1: 3f319ae697533a255a1003d09202379d78d5a2e0
This repo does not include all assets necessary for compiling the ROMs. A prior copy of the game is required to extract the assets.

they literally have a section for compiling the game

Yeah, you de-compile the copyrighted code and assets yourself.

The software offered is a de-compiler and patches. No actual de-compiled code.

"code derived from reverse engineering shipped machine code" this doesn't mean it's 1:1...

They don't claim 1:1 code is distributed. But code converted from original machine code, and modified. Thus not original.

This isn't de-compiling, describing, than recreating the same using your own code.

And this also goes further than the 'fair use' claim from @Foxi4
That allows you to share information on how to do it. Not actually distributing modified code and assets.

Also, take a look at how the software offered by TheFlow for PSVita is done.
With all original code they hook into the existing code from the original android builds.
No de-compiled code used here.
Take-Two would have a hard time taking that down.
 
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Spider_Man

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I guess this is why they're now doing the so called "remasters" so they can bitch to a court that this is having an impact on the sales of its so called "remaster".

But I don't get how a court can even consider taking up this case, as none of the files they provide allowed you to gain access to the game illegally.

You had to obtain the game either by purchasing it, or obtaining the game files by other means, which these guys do not link to.

So how can they take legal action against them and not the sites which provide the game files illegally?

This then could open up them been able to take legal action against emulators that allow you to play their games on other devices than its original device it was created for.

I hope the legal system actually enforces the laws rather than side with large companies that think they can throw millions at a court to get what they want, as these guys haven't broken any laws, they have not reverse engineered any of their IP files, all they have done is made a project that can emulate and run their games on other platforms, the user must obtain the game files themselves, if the user decides to obtain them illegally has nothing to do with these guys.

If anything, these projects may have lead to increased sales, if users actually support game devs and purchase the game to then use this project.

But we all know in reality those that are able to "pirate" will pirate, but pretend that they don't.

I myself actually do own these games (multiple consoles) and tho I did use my own game files to play them, i soon deleted them as it didnt play as well as its original.

Also they should thank them, not take them to court, as these guys have just provided proof that there is a demand to have these games ported..... shit sorry "remastered" to current gen consoles.
 
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FAST6191

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I actually expected Nintendo to take down the decompilation of Mario 64.
they cant because just like GTA RE3 etc it also requires you to have a prior copy of the game to get all the copyrighted assets to compile their decompilation

since re3 and mario dont actual contain those assets they dont actually have real ground to stand on.
thats why take2 lawyers are idiots since they are quoting soemthing that doesnt exist in original repos

As I understand it.

Code counts as creative expression. Be it in the code itself, the arrangement of it into a functioning whole (see also typesetting for old public domain books and stuff there) and such. As there are limited sensible ways to do a task in code you get far more provisions for matching code than you do in music where copying someone's melody wholesale gets you a slap, but that is limited in relevance here.

Taking the code, running it through a disassembler and then calling it your own is not the done thing any more than putting it in a zip file makes it your own thing. Indeed merely looking at a disassembled work can be legally dubious in the eyes of some, some including the law as it is generally interpreted (bit like leaked data or trade secrets/privileged information from a former employer).
Just because your disassembler has some smarts now and can recognise by whatever means a list of a few instructions as being a call to this library which we know, and this code is the library itself that we also know, this type of construct in a high level language... that does not change the fundamental underlying assumption. Still falls under what would be known as a derived work.

There is some scope to do things beyond emulation, interpretation, simulation and translation (and I guess remote play but that is more a technical alternative for someone wanting to have it on a given screen/input combo) that the law does allow/consider acceptable uses/be allowed because substantial non infringing uses. This would be known as clean room reverse engineering. Here you get to observe play, how much you are are allowed to look at plain old memory even being debated at times, and then recreate all the mechanics from that. If it sounds like it would take an age then yes, yes it would; I would hate to do it even for the original NES Mario Brothers never mind a fully 3d open world game with all sorts of one off behaviours and extras, though I suppose there are ways to speed it up (main one being make a functioning version, find where it meets something new/has a crash, fix and repeat). Has however been done for some games, and many protocols and file formats (libreoffice don't sit there with a disassembly of microsoft word looking for how it interprets things, they get to sit there, make a new document, save, type some text, compare blank to text, make text bold, compare, and repeat for however many features they care to implement* and all the potential interactions between said features).
Some would even go so far as to say those that participated in the first stage should be barred from working on the implementation for similar reasons to the leaked data/trade secrets concerns (while they might not have necessarily seen a disassembly they could have and that is good enough to bar them).
Depending upon your reading of the DMCA then bypassing protections could be an issue but that does not appear to a factor in this at this point.

*most people only use 10% of the features available and all that, however the latter part of that phrase is everybody uses a different 10% so hey. Back in games world then how much of it you need, how much you can guess from what you already know (if A=1, B=2, C=3 and you determined it by observation then you probably have a pretty good guess what D=), how much of it you care to make better (pedestrians panic when you fire guns, don't need code Rockstar wrote and instead can make a panicking pedestrian that will likely satisfy the needs of your players, maybe even spice it up a bit and make a concealed carry mod in the process) and how much you care to make over from scratch for the same general principle becoming a debate for the project leaders and the intent of the project. Said changes did however come up in the document where they noted the ones made, presumably as a backdoor for trademark concerns and such like where a product with all the appearance of their product but different functionality might cause confusion in the typical consumer (which would extend to grandma buying games for her snot nosed, but naturally of age, grandkids).

Amusingly enough Rockstar would not be able to turn around as it stands now (there is a reason most lawsuits like this end up with "give us rights to your code" as part of the settlement) and use the disassembled code on the project pages as all the arrangement, interpretation, comments and the like would potentially form reverse engineering project's own copyrighted/copyrightable additions to the code. We will skip the code forensics bit today though as all parties involved seem to agree it started with Rockstar's own code.

Assets of a more classic arty nature (pictures, text, music, vocals, animations...) not being included is generally a testament to them not being free and clear, which when you look at the code as falling under the same remit...
 
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smf

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The software offered is a de-compiler and patches. No actual de-compiled code.

A script/program that takes an executable and turns it into source code would be completely legal (as long as you don't distribute the generated source), but that isn't what mario64 or gta is.

I guess this is why they're now doing the so called "remasters" so they can bitch to a court that this is having an impact on the sales of its so called "remaster".

It isn't particularly important what the impact is, except on the award of damages.

But I don't get how a court can even consider taking up this case, as none of the files they provide allowed you to gain access to the game illegally.

Like stealing parts of a car can't be used unless you have the rest of a legally purchased car?

So how can they take legal action against them and not the sites which provide the game files illegally?

Some companies do, but it's easier to go after something hosted on github than trying to track down people all round the world.

This then could open up them been able to take legal action against emulators that allow you to play their games on other devices than its original device it was created for.

That isn't illegal.

I hope the legal system actually enforces the laws rather than side with large companies that think they can throw millions at a court to get what they want, as these guys haven't broken any laws,

I am pretty sure they have broken copyright law. Courts don't just give verdicts based on how much money you spend.

If anything, these projects may have lead to increased sales, if users actually support game devs and purchase the game to then use this project.

That isn't relevant, if a company wants to hamper their own sales then legally as the copyright holder they are allowed to do that. You don't have a legal right to increase their sales.

Also they should thank them, not take them to court, as these guys have just provided proof that there is a demand to have these games ported..... shit sorry "remastered" to current gen consoles.

If they didn't have the source code themselves then they should probably hire them, but we'll see. They might not need any help.
 
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sith

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A clear SLAPP suit, hope T2 gets embarrassed, they must have very dumb lawyers. People saying there is copyrighted/stolen code are wrong. Try to understand the history of unlicensed games, tengen/atari vs nintendo, sony vs bleem, galoob vs nintendo etc.. there is a clear precedent that you can subvert companies licensing requirements as long as you dont distribute modified works and turn a profit. This type of engine wrapper is exactly like a game genie, useless on its own, not a derivative work but combine it with the official (hopefully purchaced) game and you have something better than the original, for personal use.
 

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Yeah, you de-compile the copyrighted code and assets yourself.

The software offered is a de-compiler and patches. No actual de-compiled code.



They don't claim 1:1 code is distributed. But code converted from original machine code, and modified. Thus not original.

This isn't de-compiling, describing, than recreating the same using your own code.

And this also goes further than the 'fair use' claim from @Foxi4
That allows you to share information on how to do it. Not actually distributing modified code and assets.

Also, take a look at how the software offered by TheFlow for PSVita is done.
With all original code they hook into the existing code from the original android builds.
No de-compiled code used here.
Take-Two would have a hard time taking that down.
Of course they will, because this is not copyright infringement. A similar case went through the courts regarding Sony's reverse engineered BIOS files for the original PlayStation which allowed you to run PSX software without the original BIOS dump which is, admittedly, hard to obtain legally without the right equipment. This is not a winning strategy for Take Two, what the team's doing is permitted by law.
 

smf

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A clear SLAPP suit, hope T2 gets embarrassed, they must have very dumb lawyers. People saying there is copyrighted/stolen code are wrong. Try to understand the history of unlicensed games, tengen/atari vs nintendo, sony vs bleem, galoob vs nintendo etc.. there is a clear precedent that you can subvert companies licensing requirements as long as you dont distribute modified works and turn a profit. This type of engine wrapper is exactly like a game genie, useless on its own, not a derivative work but combine it with the official (hopefully purchaced) game and you have something better than the original, for personal use.

I disagree with your post, for a lot of the reasons given earlier by me and fast6191.

An engine that was created by reading the original code and implementing it verbatim could easily infringe copyright. This differs to an emulator, because the source of an emulator is equivalent to the chips in the console and any information you obtain by reverse engineering software is used to create something for the game to talk to. If you started with the GTA assets and didn't read the original engine binary at all and managed to make a game that used the assets anyway, then you're fine (as long as you don't distribute the assets).

re3 will need to mount a defense to be able to get certainty from a court whether any laws were broken, which is going to be expensive. I wouldn't waste any money on it, as based on what they posted on github/twitter they clearly are guilty. If you want to fund their legal defense then go ahead, otherwise T2 will get a default judgement.

The original games engine is copyright, distribution of it in any form will be a copyright violation. Even if that form is source code.

Whether that is the outcome you want or not is not relevant. This thread is a good lesson in not getting legal advice from a gaming forum, too many people want an outcome that the law doesn't support.
 
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sith

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@smf I guess we will have to see what happens. I completely disagree with everything you have said throughout this thread and since you didn't directly address any arguments i've made I don't think i can respond intelligently.

An engine that was created by reading the original code and implementing it verbatim could easily infringe copyright.

are you alleging the defendants have done this? when nintendo gigaleak happened dolphin developers went out of their way to say they wouldn't look, did they have the source?? if the opensource program matched t2's source in a provable way i think they would have aleged that in the claim, they did not, they falsely claimed it was a playable, pirated, available game.
 

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Read up some on decompiled code. It's super grey area, it's not black or white as some try to say it is. Sony vs. Connectix and Sega Vs Accolade are two interesting cases.
 

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are you alleging the defendants have done this?

I'm saying that I believe that re3 themselves claim on github and twitter that they have done this & expressed worry that they will be sued for it.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-without-so-far-getting-shut-down-by-take-two

But Take-Two and Rockstar have a reputation for taking a hard-line with fan remakes and others who tinker with their code. Was the team worried about an intervention?

"Yes, we were very much worried about that and tried to stay under the radar for as long as possible," aap says.

"We got a lot of attention when the Switch port happened but nothing from Take-Two. We took that as a sign that they don't care (or are really blind)."


if the opensource program matched t2's source in a provable way i think they would have aleged that in the claim, they did not, they falsely claimed it was a playable, pirated, available game.

I skim read the suit, but my understanding is they claimed you get a playable game if you combine it with the assets.

I assume they have started trawling through code looking for similarities, but it's a bit early for that. Things like having the same bugs are a big clue, my guess is that T2 will be looking at any bug fixes to see how similar the original code was to theirs.

What I know
1 the engine is copyright
2 re3 appear to have claimed to reverse engineered that and produced equivalent source code.

You can argue that re3 have not given a true representation of what they did, but they'll get a chance to put the record straight in court.

Read up some on decompiled code. It's super grey area, it's not black or white as some try to say it is. Sony vs. Connectix and Sega Vs Accolade are two interesting cases.

Neither of those cases involved distribution of copyright work. It is not a grey area at all.
 
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Jacobh

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you do realize they'll be trying this case in the USA right? ... not in the EU ... Yeah the EU is way more relaxed about the laws involving video games in general that's why you can fail at hacking your console brick it and send it back to the company to get it fixed in the EU but not in the USA

The article posted correctly points out the US allows for broader exceptions in the use of decompilation. So in this particular case the US is more “relaxed” than the EU.

I’m not all that familiar with EU consumer protection laws, but EU warranty protection has nothing to do with whether decompilation is legal or not.
 

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The article posted correctly points out the US allows for broader exceptions in the use of decompilation.

Whether you're allowed to decompile something and what you do with the decompilation afterwards are legally two things. I think that is one hurdle that people who read that "decompilation is legal" don't get over.

Most articles discuss fair use reasons to decompile, producing a competing product by duplicating the functionality verbatim is not a fair use.

https://courses.cs.duke.edu/cps182s/fall02/cscopyright/Copyrights/Copyright-Fairuse.htm

Decompiling object code produces an approximation of the original source code. Merely making this rough copy would usually violate the copyright holder's exclusive rights, even if the person who decompiled the code only used it as a preliminary step in making another work. Someone who reverse engineers software may therefore be liable for copyright infringement unless they can show that reverse engineering is fair use.
 
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So if you jump through some small hoops to get the same end result, RE is legal, but if you don't, it's not. Right.
In any case, I doubt this code will ever disappear now, and I doubt T2 is going to win this.
 

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