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Believe Accusers!

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gamesquest1

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We still have people sentanced just for being black, or sentanced to death because they are gay.
personally I would like a system where the judge/jury don't get to know the race/gender/sexual orientation of the accused, deal in the facts so everyone is treated equally, but ofc that throws up its own issues such as showing cctv footage of a crime taking place etc
 

Tigran

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I agree with that desire. But again, as you state it causes it's own problems.

One interesting solution, which probably has it's own problem, is Professional Jurors.
 

kuwanger

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that said if there was zero or very little substantial evidence against you your lawyer should tell you to go to trial and win

Which leads to the second problem: public defenders in many locations are heavily overworked. "In a lawsuit brought in Washington State, it emerged that publicly appointed defense attorneys were working less than an hour per case, with caseloads of 1,000 misdemeanors per year." -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/17/poor-rely-public-defenders-too-overworked So, those who have can afford a lawyer have good reason to fight evidence suspect evidence. But if the evidence is eyewitness testimony where you were picked out of a line-up? So, you can go broke trying to defend yourself even if you have the money.

why can't he drink at 18?

"But Maryland's minimum legal drinking age for beer and wine was changed to 21 from 18 in July 1982, during the summer before Kavanaugh's senior year. It was already 21 for hard liquor. Therefore, any drinking that Kavanaugh did in the state of Maryland during high school was illegal." -- https://www.businessinsider.com/mar...tt-kavanaugh-legally-drink-high-school-2018-9

Like I was saying, MADD was pushing to raise the legal age from 18 to 21 and lobbied to passed a law in 1984 that tied Federal Highway Funding to making it 21 with progressively larger cuts to State over time for those that didn't comply.

PS - Sort of a shame that at the end of every episode of Perry Mason or Matlock, to stay true to realism, they didn't have the recently exonerated client dumping a wheelbarrow full of money on their lawyer's floor for services rendered.
 
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Hanafuda

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Sadly haven't read through all the posts, but is it not enough that Kavanaugh lied about the legal age to drink where he lived and hence was drinking underage?

Kavanaugh admitted to drinking underage. Please show me from his testimony where he lied about the legal drinking age.


So just to clarify, it's not ok to believe Kavanaugh's roommate because they didn't like each other but completely OK to believe a woman's ex boyfriend because?

Kavanaugh's roommate (Roche) didn't witness anything. He said he believes Ramirez because that could have happened, but he didn't witness it. He has only an opinion.


What I'm saying is, the Republicans went all out and it turned out that Bill Clinton had actually possibly sexually assaulted someone. The Republicans did this with no thought toward his daughter or the effect it would have on government.

The problem with Clinton/Lewinsky is that Clinton was serving as POTUS at the time their dalliance occurred. He wasn't a 17 year old minor when it happened. It happened in the White House. There was physical evidence and recordings to prove it. And he lied about it.

I get your point about political leanings by people on both sides prejudicing their respective bias, but there are some very significant distinctions between the facts of the Clinton/Lewinsky thing and the Kavanaugh accusations. They can't be equated, even remotely.
 

Viri

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Ford once coaching someone on how to take a polygraph
Remember, if you want to fake a polygraph test, when you're about to tell a lie, bite the fuck out of the side of your cheek! Bite as hard as you can! I took a lie detector test for fun in high school, and did that, and passed, even though I lied. :D Pain really messes with the test.
 
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gamesquest1

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Remember, if you want to fake a polygraph test, when you're about to tell a lie, bite the fuck out of the side of your cheek! Bite as hard as you can! I took a lie detector test for fun in high school, and did that, and passed, even though I lied. :D Pain really messes with the test.
that's not even covering the fact people can convince themselves of stuff, give a kid a test and ask if there is a monster under the bed, even if polygraphs were 100% accurate peoples minds are not and can fill in gaps for them and enough pressure/support to come to a specific conclusion regarding something can lead a person to believing a story

not making any assertions either way, but pointing out polygraphs are not even reliable even discounting the fact its fairly simple with a few hours coaching to defeat them, there is a reason we haven't just replaced courts and trials with polygraph tests

I would say the same thing if Kavanaugh had submitted a polygraph test result as proof he didn't do it, its as good as using mood rings to say what mood someone is in
 
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Viri

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I would say the same thing if Kavanaugh had submitted a polygraph test result as proof he didn't do it, its as good as using mood rings to say what mood someone is in
If he passes the test, people will just say polygraph tests are unreliable. If he fails the test, "RAPIST!"
 

Eastonator12

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People should be heard and things investigated, of course, but by no means shall the life of the accused be destroyed without a proof.
The problem is that today's society is playing accuser-judge-executioner all in their hands, disregarding any kind of fair trial.

PS: And I am not talking just about Kavanaugh, but about the general trend of disregarding the importance of proof and facts and going by emotion and mob-mentality.


I agree with mostly everything but this. Though there is a bias, the mass hysteria is generalized, and trying to make your point about some racial/privilege based unfairness debilitates your point. It will still happen if the accuser was a straight, white, christian, male... he only needs to find some way to play the social victim. The problem here is people moving on emotions instead of facts.
For instance, there is a woman(i can't remember her name, sorry) who accused Bill Clinton of sexually harassing her, rape, whatnot. The dems basically say "yeah, whatever", even though it has been PROVEN bill clinton is a rapist, during the time he was in office. So dems don't care about women, nor do they believe them. Kavanaugh's accuser is full of shit, she was "too afraid" to fly in to testify, yet she's perfectly fine going to maryland and hawaii? makes no fucking sense. And if you get raped, by all means, TELL THE FUCKING POLICE. Don't wait 40 years to tell someone. It's clear the dems plan is to stall Pres Trump from appointing another judge until after the midterms, where they hope to win.
 
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Yep, I'm tagging out. The toxicity in this thread has gone into overdrive. It is astonishing how many times everyone in this thread managed to misquote or completely made up stuff regarding Ford and Kavanaugh. Not just the accusers, but the defenders as well. It's absurd.
 

kingfrost

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Kavanaugh admitted to drinking underage. Please show me from his testimony where he lied about the legal drinking age.




Kavanaugh's roommate (Roche) didn't witness anything. He said he believes Ramirez because that could have happened, but he didn't witness it. He has only an opinion.




The problem with Clinton/Lewinsky is that Clinton was serving as POTUS at the time their dalliance occurred. He wasn't a 17 year old minor when it happened. It happened in the White House. There was physical evidence and recordings to prove it. And he lied about it.

I get your point about political leanings by people on both sides prejudicing their respective bias, but there are some very significant distinctions between the facts of the Clinton/Lewinsky thing and the Kavanaugh accusations. They can't be equated, even remotely.

He clearly states repeatedly that it was legal for him to drink at the time as the drinking age was 18. The one time I remember he masked it by saying it was almost always 18 when he lived in Maryland which is a far way from saying I drunk illegally or underaged.

His whole testimony was extremely dodgy and he routinely refused to answer questions. He clearly lied about what terms meant, unless he spoke a different language from the rest of the country. The clearest way he came across had little to do with he actual accusations. He came across as someone attempting to reinvent his personal history to fit a mold that the base desired more snuggly.

There were many more accusations made than just Monica Lewinsky and it went back much farther in time than just her as well. My point was that she stuck because there was actually physical evidence. Also, you're right it is different because Monica wasn't sexually assaulted maybe sexually harassed, but if you actually read interviews with her, it comes off like she was upset he didn't keep his promises to her and was a liar, which made it easy for political operatives to take advantage of her. I would say it was similar in that neither side really cared about the fallout to the victims of the process, which is what I focused on anyway.

For instance, there is a woman(i can't remember her name, sorry) who accused Bill Clinton of sexually harassing her, rape, whatnot. The dems basically say "yeah, whatever", even though it has been PROVEN bill clinton is a rapist, during the time he was in office. So dems don't care about women, nor do they believe them. Kavanaugh's accuser is full of shit, she was "too afraid" to fly in to testify, yet she's perfectly fine going to maryland and hawaii? makes no fucking sense. And if you get raped, by all means, TELL THE FUCKING POLICE. Don't wait 40 years to tell someone. It's clear the dems plan is to stall Pres Trump from appointing another judge until after the midterms, where they hope to win.

Show me where it's settled that Bill Clinton was a rapist. Yes he was accused of by several people, notably not the person who had actual proof of a sexual relationship with the president, but by other woman.

By the logic shown in this thread by your fellows, we need cold hard physical proof that he raped someone or you are a false accuser. You are guilty of the very thing you're accusing other people of.

Also the Republican party and Bill Clinton both took advantage of a young woman, but only one did for it political purpose. Monica Lewinsky has never said that Bill Clinton raped her, she has played around with the idea of sexual assault which it probably won't as given the power dynamic at play. She very clearly thought he was telling the truth when he said he would leave Hilary and was crushed when he didn't, if you go by her own narrative. Other people planted the idea of testifying against him in the impeachment process. You would have to be willingly blind not to see the parallels between the two cases and how they were handled here, which most people in this thread seem to be, for political "points" for their side.

Mitch McConnell has stated that no matter what the FBI finds they will vote on his confirmation. That stinks of political expediency and it is clear that the Republican party is pushing his nomination for their base in time for midterms.

It blows my mind how much of the American process is basically sports. People routinely call out every team but their own and refuse to see anything wrong with their team even when the writing is clear on the wall.

No one in congress truly cares if this is true or not, no matter their party affiliation. They only care for the optics they can get. The Democrats play progressive, and the Republicans play the repressed white men under attack by harpies. The key thing to remember is that it is all political theater, and to massively simplify a form of political prostitution.

Edit: I'd also like to say that while polygraphs are unreliable and this is known fact, law enforcement and the justice system still regularly use them. If you would like that to change, I suggest you do something about it other than use it as an attempt to discredit one person.
 
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Xzi

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People still aren't getting it through their heads that this is a job interview, not a criminal trial. Setting aside the accusations of sexual misconduct altogether for the moment, is it really that unreasonable to deny a person a job because they screamed, cried, dodged questions, lied, and rambled about how much they like beer at their job interview? We expect better than that from burger flippers in the US, let alone SCOTUS justices.
 
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kingfrost

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If he passes the test, people will just say polygraph tests are unreliable. If he fails the test, "RAPIST!"

Yes and I suppose you honestly believe if she had failed that they wouldn't use that as proof she was lying? Political discourse nowadays simply comes down to what side you're on. Everything else is decided and filtered from there.

I would also like to point out that as much as some people act like Kavanaugh is getting much worse than Ford, I would say she took the larger risk. Political types recover from sexual assault accusations true or not. Half of our last four presidents have done so before being elected President. The woman that accused them on the other hand? They have no public life and most people will remember them as harpies and ungrateful woman. Monica Lewinsky is the most high profile example of this and is likely what Ford has to look forward to for the rest of her life.

The Republicans didn't protect Monica and I doubt the Democrats will Ford. To pretend that history has shown the accused to suffer more than the accuser is a ridiculous assertion.

Just look at the Republican Senators and our President even feeling free to attack and make fun of her. For them to pretend they are better than than the Democrats in any way is hilarious. They will ruin Ford's life and like Monica, I don't think she'll come out of it better than the one she accused.

People should absolutely keep that in mind as they attack accusers and act as if there is no sacrifice. There is always sacrifice.
 

Viri

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Yes and I suppose you honestly believe if she had failed that they wouldn't use that as proof she was lying? Political discourse nowadays simply comes down to what side you're on. Everything else is decided and filtered from there.
I don't believe lie detector tests should be used at all. They can be cheated pretty easily, and I get pissed off when I see them used on talk host shows.


The Republicans didn't protect Monica and I doubt the Democrats will Ford. To pretend that history has shown the accused to suffer more than the accuser is a ridiculous assertion.
Haha, they don't give a flying fuck about Ford. They're not going to defend her.
 
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Hanafuda

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Yes and I suppose you honestly believe if she had failed that they wouldn't use that as proof she was lying?

If she had failed the polygraph they'd have just given another one until she passed. For all we know, she did take more than one. Her lawyers have held back almost all documentary evidence the Senate Judiciary Committee has requested as relevant, even though they claim these docs as support her accusation.

And if she was unable to pass the polygraph altogether, we would never have even heard she'd taken one. The only way we know she did is because she let it be known.
 
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Xzi

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Haha, they don't give a flying fuck about Ford. They're not going to defend her.
It's not the job of senate Democrats to protect her past her involvement in these accusations. At that point it's law enforcement's job, and she may yet have to go into witness protection. At least the Democrats are taking the accusations seriously, where the Republicans were dismissive from the very beginning.

Perhaps the bigger issue still is that a majority of polled Republicans want Kavanaugh confirmed even if the assault accusations are all true:

https://www.salon.com/2018/09/27/po...nfirmed-even-if-assault-accusations-are-true/

Salon said:
Eighty-three percent of Republicans support Kavanaugh's nomination, according to a recent survey by NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist Poll. More noteworthy, 54 percent of Republicans said that they would support confirming Kavanaugh even if it turned out that the sexual assault accusations against him are true. Only 32 percent of Republican voters disagreed with that sentiment.

This shows a strong moral rot taking hold inside the GOP, and the scary thing is that it's a result of constituents mirroring the leadership's values (or lack there of) and opinions instead of the leadership reflecting their constituent's values and opinions. Banana Republic, monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship, or even The Handmaid's Tale? Bring it on as long as their side can claim some sort of subjective "win."

They'd really "own the libcucks" by devaluing the position of SCOTUS justice to any town drunk, right? /s
 
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kingfrost

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I don't believe lie detector tests should be used at all. They can be cheated pretty easily, and I get pissed off when I see them used on talk host shows.



Haha, they don't give a flying fuck about Ford. They're not going to defend her.

Thank you, that was the point I was making. Glad you understood.

Also polygraphs are still ordered by judges and used by the police, so surely you'll want to actually do something about such a horrible thing and not just whine about it when it doesn't benefit your party. I wonder if Judge Kavanaugh has ever ordered a polygraph be taken?

If she had failed the polygraph they'd have just given another one until she passed. For all we know, she did take more than one. Her lawyers have held back almost all documentary evidence the Senate Judiciary Committee has requested as relevant, even though they claim these docs as support her accusation.

And if she was unable to pass the polygraph altogether, we would never have even heard she'd taken one. The only way we know she did is because she let it be known.

See you just made false accusations. You don't know anything about how she took them, why, how many, or when but that doesn't stop you from making accusations that you have no evidence to back up.

I thought the point here was that too many people make accusations without collaboration? That's exactly what you just did.
 
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