Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I'm having a hard time trusting any of papers I've read on this topic (for either side) as they always seem to be by people with a specific agenda. I don't really want to debate the issue though as I don't want to offend anyone here over something I definitely don't feel as strongly about as they probably do.

Same here basically. But I just want to point out that you don't need to read any papers on it. You just need logic:
Men to women transsexuals often outcompete women in sports
Women to men do not outcompete men in sports.
(+Men have an andvantage over women in sports)
Ergo: Gender is linked to sex/biology.

 

[subcon959]

Same here basically. But I just want to point out that you don't need to read any papers on it. You just need logic:
Men to women transsexuals often outcompete women in sports
Women to men do not outcompete men in sports.
(+Men have an andvantage over women in sports)
Ergo: Gender is linked to sex/biology.

Yes, thats what I meant by clear cut but it seems some people don't see it that way and I don't see any merit in debating it.

 

[AmandaRose]

Men to women transsexuals often outcompete women in sports

(+Men have an andvantage over women in sports)
Ergo: Gender is linked to sex/biology.

I would love for you to name more than 1 trans sports woman who constantly out perform cis women in high profile professional sports.

Other than Rachel McKinnon winning the woman's sprint World Track Cycling Championship in the 35-44 age bracket there isn't any other trans female that has been a world champion in a major sport.

Let's also look at the Olympics where trans male and females have been allowed to compete since 2004. How many trans athletes have won medals the answer is zero. The same at the World athletics championships and so on.

 

[notimp]

Now you are making the 'hey nothing will change that much in society at large' arguments...

Kind of shows you how big societies power in defining conventions and norms really is.

So for anyone afraid that they will not recognize the world tomorrow, neh - usually not how those things work.

When everyone stops thinking about an issue, because thats just how things were - then you have achieved full societal recognition.

That change - the one that usually matters, is quite slow and nothing people necessarily have to be afraid of, or worried about.

Outrageous examples:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/4-bad-side-effects-of-rea_b_5513451

https://daily.jstor.org/the-racism-of-19th-century-advertisements/

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I would love for you to name more than 1 trans sports woman who constantly out perform cis women in high profile professional sports.

Other than Rachel McKinnon winning the woman's sprint World Track Cycling Championship in the 35-44 age bracket there isn't any other trans female that has been a world champion in a major sport.

Let's also look at the Olympics where trans male and females have been allowed to compete since 2004. How many trans athletes have won medals the answer is zero. The same at the World athletics championships and so on.

I don't know Rachel McKinnon, nor do I care. I only saw a trans man to woman weightlifter winning because it was in the news. The number of trans people competing in sports is very low. I could also not name you an Estonian female golfer.

If you reject the claim that gender is linked to or based on sex/biology, you need to explain to us why no men complain about unfair advantages of women to men trans people competing with them. But it does exist the other way around.
I don't advocate for rule changes because I personally don't care.

 

[supersonicwaffle]

I would love for you to name more than 1 trans sports woman who constantly out perform cis women in high profile professional sports.

Other than Rachel McKinnon winning the woman's sprint World Track Cycling Championship in the 35-44 age bracket there isn't any other trans female that has been a world champion in a major sport.

Let's also look at the Olympics where trans male and females have been allowed to compete since 2004. How many trans athletes have won medals the answer is zero. The same at the World athletics championships and so on.

There's Fallon Fox in MMA who only has a single loss on her professional record and broke an opponents skull.
There's Mary Gregory who broke a powerlifting world record in her masters category.
There's Laurel Hubbard in weightlifting.

There's more but I CBA to list them all out when a simple google search reveals what you're asking for quickly.

TBF, I don't really give a shit about masters categories they're mainly recreational competition for people who never made the pros and some post-retirement pros, so I really take no interest in McKinnon's, Gregory's or Dumaresq's records or world championships. However, Cycling is notorious for fierce amateur competition with regular occurences of doping, so a person who wins a world championship there a few years after starting the sport and only a year after transitioning to the track would raise suspicion even if she wasn't trans, you can watch Icarus on Netfix if you're interested in that.
Regarding UCI's rules for trans women it should also be said that they're allowed to maintain the maximum allowable testosterone levels for females through controlled medication which cis women aren't allowed to do, that in itself is an inherent advantage trans women athletes have.

What I'm more concerned about than professional sports even is youth sports. Results in youth competitions dictate whether you can get assistance in the form of financial help for training camps or scolarships.

 

[AmandaRose]

There's Fallon Fox in MMA who only has a single loss on her professional record and broke an opponents skull.
There's Mary Gregory who broke a powerlifting world record in her masters category.
There's Laurel Hubbard in weightlifting.

There's more but I CBA to list them all out when a simple google search reveals what you're asking for quickly.

Ok so I asked for you to name trans woman people dominating in their sport so let's look at the people you listed.

Fallon Fox MMA record 5 wins and 1 lose.
If you actually look at the women she beat every one of them have a terrible lose record against other women the one time she faced anyone good she lost. That is hardly dominanting her chosen sport. Had she a record of 30 wins and 0 losses then you would have an argument but not with a 5-1 record. And yes in her fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents did suffer a concussion, and an orbital bone fracture, but that type of injury is not uncommon in MMA and has nothing to do with Fallon being a trans woman.

Also just want to post this about Fallon and other trans women in combat sports.

Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes. He stated in Time magazine that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males" and said that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist. In general concurrence with peer-reviewed scientific literature, he states this to be "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and said she has "clearly fulfilled all conditions.

He clearly states that trans women have zero advantage over cis women in combat sports.

Mary Gregory does not count as her world records have rightly been striped from her as she has not yet fully transitioned and should never have been allowed to compete in the first place as she never even made the requirement of being on Hrt for a minimum of two years required by all trans athletes to complete in sports.

Laurel Hubbard has won a few minor weight lifting competitions but has not one anything major so again she is not dominating her chosen sport.

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Ok so I asked for you to name trans woman people dominating in their sport so let's look at the people you listed.

I anticiapated that you would pick and chose but why even bring up Rachel McKinnon then?

Laurel Hubbard has won a few minor weight lifting competitions but has not one anything major so again she is not dominating her chosen sport.

Why does Wikipedia list them as results in majors?

you actually look at the women she beat every one of them have a terrible lose record against other women the one time she faced anyone good she lost.

That's just absurdly untrue, her last three opponents, including the one she lost to and the one whose skull she broke, do not have a losing record. At the time the woman that she lost to had a professional record of 1-0.

Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males

This is relevant how? No one has a problem with male to female transsexuals competing against men.

Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes. He stated in Time magazine that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males" and said that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist. In general concurrence with peer-reviewed scientific literature, he states this to be "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and said she has "clearly fulfilled all conditions.

AFAIK the upper limit for testosterone for females is believed to be 10 nmol/L while it's believed 99% for women are below roughly 3 nmol/L. Transgender athletes need to show they're below 10 nmol/L for 2 years, effectively allowing them to control testosterone to be three times as high as 99% of women. Testosterone levels are one of the best indicators for performance. Here's what Vilain had to say about it:

The rule allowed for testosterone to be considerably above the normal female range, so I have always looked at the guidelines as very inclusive.

Of course there is no perfect solution to an imperfect situation but claiming that transgender females don't have an advantage because they only have an advantage over 99% of women for inclusivity is ridiculous.

 

[AmandaRose]

why even bring up Rachel McKinnon then?
Because yes she is world champion but she is not dominating the sport


Ok so you asked. Why does Wikipedia list them as results in majors?
It says major results not major tournament wins there is a huge difference


You also state the one whose skull she broke,

She did not brake someone's skull she fractured her orbital bone again a huge difference and as I previously stated a common injury in MMA that has happened before with cis women fighting each other. The injury has nothing to do with the fighter being a trans woman

You said This is relevant how? No one has a problem with male to female transsexuals competing against men.

It's relevant because it clearly states a trans woman does not have an advantage over a cis woman. As I have previously stated there has been numerous scientific studies done the provide evidence that tran women have similar levels of testosterone as cis women and they gain zero advantage.

And if they did gain an advantage then there would be more trans world champions when there isn't.

Again there is zero evidence of trans women dominating there chosen sport.

 

[supersonicwaffle]

It says major results not major tournament wins there is a huge difference

OK let's look at the minor competitions she had major results in, because you know, Wikipedia lists them.

• World Championships
• Commonwealth Games
• Oceania Championships
• Commonwealth Championships
• Pacific Games
• Arafura Games
• World Masters Games

Also something I didn't know before. Apparently a DNF is a major result now.

You also state the one whose skull she broke,

She did not brake someone's skull she fractured her orbital bone again a huge difference and as I previously stated a common injury in MMA that has happened before with cis women fighting each other.

Fair enough

The injury has nothing to do with the fighter being a trans woman

Care to substantiate that claim?

It's relevant because it clearly states a trans woman does not have an advantage over a cis woman. As I have previously stated there has been numerous scientific studies done the provide evidence that tran women have similar levels of testosterone as cis women and they gain zero advantage.

First of all, that's just plain wrong. Your Statement "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males" says nothing about trans women in relation to biological women. Having a disadvantage against men does not mean they do not have an advantage over females.

As I have previously stated there has been numerous scientific studies done the provide evidence that tran women have similar levels of testosterone as cis women and they gain zero advantage.

Don't conflate trans women with trans women athletes. One of them has a motivation to keep their testosterone levels high the other doesn't.

And if they did gain an advantage then there would be more trans world champions when there isn't.

Holy fallacy.

 

[Uiaad]

People are people. Black, white, gay, straight, trans, non-binary. Every person on this planet is a person with their own thoughts, feelings and ideas and they can call or be whatever they like doesn't change the fact they are still people. If you don't like what someone calls you or says just walk way, no one is forcing you to be around a particular person or group. Great thing about being human is that we have full autonomy to do what the fuck we like. Find another group or person to hang about with if you find the problem keeps on following you then you may have to face the fact that the problem is you if not then problem solved and you can stop your whining.

Seem you have an axe to grind, I mean necrobumping a 5 month old, we get what? 80 rotations around the sun on this planet as we hurtle through the vast emptiness of space if we are lucky. Life's too short bickering and arguing over shit. If I don't like something yeah i'll say something but sweet jesus and the baby orphans, learn to let stuff go. You'll live longer and enjoy life more.

 

[DinohScene]

This thread has far outlived its purpose.