Communism or capitalism?

[SG854]

Thats how it works in a free market. You get paid your worth. And people deem your worth.
A musician like Michael Jackson made lots of money. Because many people bought his music. Compared to lets say Novelist that barely sold much.

The more likable a job is the less you get payed.
Working in the shade at a fast food place has more likable conditions then lets say a ditch digger working in the hot sun that gets payed more with higher risk of injury.

Also what deems the jobs pay is supply and demand. More people go for a fast food type job then a ditch digger. More supply of people means you're are easily replaceable, therefore your employer pays you less and doesn't have to worry about hiring and finding a replacement. Compared to a ditch digger where people hardly apply to. So employers offer higher pay to try to attract more people to work that job. If both jobs offered same pay then hardly anyone will pick one that has risk of death over a job with more likable conditions and lower risk of death. Or another example doctors which there is less of so employers offer higher pay to keep what is in limited supply.

 

[Kioku]

That's a lot to assume, that people that aren't making a livable wage are inherently bad at their job. It certainly doesn't help that most higher-paying jobs require experience that only those lower-paying jobs can supply

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*TotalInsanity4 has super-liked this post*

Its not an assumption, rather a what - if. I see it everyday. People half assing their jobs claiming they're "underpaid".

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Working in the shade at a fast food place has more likable conditions then lets say a ditch digger working in the hot sun that gets payed more with higher risk of injury.

You sound like a person that has never worked in fast food, if you think that it's a comfortable and hazard-free work environment. I'm not saying that ditch digging isn't, but you're presenting a glorified and idealized version of working at a fast food place, specifically kitchen work.

Also what deems the jobs pay is supply and demand. More people go for a fast food type job then a ditch digger. More supply of people means you're are easily replaceable, therefore your employer pays you less and doesn't have to worry about hiring and finding a replacement. Compared to a ditch digger where people hardly apply to. So employers offer higher pay to try to attract more people to work that job. If both jobs offered same pay then hardly anyone will pick one that has risk of death over a job with more likable conditions and lower risk of death. Or another example doctors which there is less of so employers offer higher pay to keep what is in limited supply.

Again, not to say you're wrong per se, but ditch digging (and general contract construction work, which is what I feel like you're trying to get at) is seasonal work, and there are DEFINITELY a lot of people who apply over the summer to do it; people who are willing to stand on a roof and pound nails or sand on a highway and rotate a sign back and forth or drive a pilot car are a dime a dozen, so long as you pay them enough. The reason they're able to pay so much, though, is that their services are deemed essential to either the homeowners or governmental departments requesting them, so they can negotiate higher prices.

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Its not an assumption, rather a what - if. I see it everyday. People half assing their jobs claiming they're "underpaid".

If someone is underpaid for long enough, they're going to start doing work that's proportional to what the company values them at. The fact that you see it that way contributes to an ideal that allows a corporate entity to keep a "revolving door" model for low wage employees, rather than incentivising better work ethic with pay proportional to work done

 

[SG854]

You sound like a person that has never worked in fast food, if you think that it's a comfortable and hazard-free work environment. I'm not saying that ditch digging isn't, but you're presenting a glorified and idealized version of working at a fast food place, specifically kitchen work.


Again, not to say you're wrong per se, but ditch digging (and general contract construction work, which is what I feel like you're trying to get at) is seasonal work, and there are DEFINITELY a lot of people who apply over the summer to do it; people who are willing to stand on a roof and pound nails or sand on a highway and rotate a sign back and forth or drive a pilot car are a dime a dozen, so long as you pay them enough. The reason they're able to pay so much, though, is that their services are deemed essential to either the homeowners or governmental departments requesting them, so they can negotiate higher prices.

The words I used are more likable and less risk of injury. I never said completely hazardous free. Comparing the two jobs one is more hazardous so therefore that one gets more pay. More people apply to fast food that ditch digging. Because its easier then ditch digging. Its supply and demand. My friend made 25 an hr digging ditches. That was his first job and he got that pay right away.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

The words I used are more likable and less risk of injury. I never said completely hazardous free. Comparing the two jobs one is more hazardous so therefore that one gets more pay. More people apply to fast food that ditch digging. Because its easier then ditch digging. Its supply and demand. My friend made 25 an hr digging ditches. That was his first job and he got that pay right away.

It's also a job that requires a strong, able-bodied individual to do, unless you have expensive machinery that you're operating to do it for you. There are many people who don't have that option. Plus, you're comparing something that should reasonably be paid more to something extreme as a way of silencing the conversation. I know you might legitimately think that it's an equal comparison, but they're hardly things that you can compare. If you wanted to do a better comparison, you could use trucking; a job that's heavily stigmatized against as it requires no "skill" other than the ability to sit behind a wheel in air conditioning for hours on end (which, again, is something I'd consider a skill to be able to do both without falling asleep and while meeting a strict timetable, but I digress), but are paid very well because the ability to get a product from one location to another in a timely manor is seen as a necessary service.

 

[Kioku]

You sound like a person that has never worked in fast food, if you think that it's a comfortable and hazard-free work environment. I'm not saying that ditch digging isn't, but you're presenting a glorified and idealized version of working at a fast food place, specifically kitchen work.


Again, not to say you're wrong per se, but ditch digging (and general contract construction work, which is what I feel like you're trying to get at) is seasonal work, and there are DEFINITELY a lot of people who apply over the summer to do it; people who are willing to stand on a roof and pound nails or sand on a highway and rotate a sign back and forth or drive a pilot car are a dime a dozen, so long as you pay them enough. The reason they're able to pay so much, though, is that their services are deemed essential to either the homeowners or governmental departments requesting them, so they can negotiate higher prices.

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If someone is underpaid for long enough, they're going to start doing work that's proportional to what the company values them at. The fact that you see it that way contributes to an ideal that allows a corporate entity to keep a "revolving door" model for low wage employees, rather than incentivising better work ethic with pay proportional to work done

Work ethic is something you learn yourself. It's, unfortunately, a truth that the "revolving door" model is all too common. Of course, this is strongly reliant on the aforementioned work ethic. If you can't appreciate your work, your morals, your ethics. How can you expect your employer to? The thing about these low end jobs is that they're not meant to be careers. You choosing to stick there out of self doubt isn't the employers fault.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Work ethic is something you learn yourself. It's, unfortunately, a truth that the "revolving door" model is all too common. Of course, this is strongly reliant on the aforementioned work ethic. If you can't appreciate your work, your morals, your ethics. How can you expect your employer to? The thing about these low end jobs is that they're not meant to be careers. You choosing to stick there out of self doubt isn't the employers fault.

I don't think I made it clear enough the first time, but the wage is what degrades the work ethic, not something that reflects it. I work in retail, and I've seen too many people come in "bright eyed and bushy tailed", as the saying goes, and ready to give it their all, but after six months of a stagnant wage that's barely allowing them to scrape by, even after pulling 40+ hours a week (which would reasonably qualify them as "full time", even though they maintain a part-time status), they start to lose that enthusiasm, which will eventually give the company an excuse to let them go in favor of a new part-time employee.

And I'm not talking about high school students, here, I'm talking about night shift college students and middle-aged folks who are in an unfortunate circumstance where the job is really all they have.

 

[Kioku]

I don't think I made it clear enough the first time, but the wage is what degrades the work ethic, not something that reflects it. I work in retail, and I've seen too many people come in "bright eyed and bushy tailed", as the saying goes, and ready to give it their all, but after six months of a stagnant wage that's barely allowing them to scrape by, even after pulling 40+ hours a week (which would reasonably qualify them as "full time", even though they maintain a part-time status), they start to lose that enthusiasm, which will eventually give the company an excuse to let them go in favor of a new part-time employee.

And I'm not talking about high school students, here, I'm talking about night shift college students and middle-aged folks who are in an unfortunate circumstance where the job is really all they have.

Y'know? My mom is a prime example as to why this isn't entirely true. When I was younger, she had to work 3 different jobs. Sometimes all running back to back to back. Making at or just above minimum wage. Was it a damper on her morale? Yeah. Did she use it as an excuse to stay there? No. She wanted out. So, she put herself out there. Here we are 13 years later and has a skillet that will get her anywhere she wants to go. "A job is a job" is the most annoying thing I've ever heard when it comes to a career path. However, it's true. If you don't like where you're at, and feel you're worth more you have to PROVE IT. The wage doesn't instill the self doubt. It's not a barricade. I've seen it first hand. I started at retail making $9/hr.. Moved into the oilfield service 4 years later with no prior experience making a living wage doing LESS work than I ever did in retail. It's a mindset that is a horrid one to dive into, when you believe you're stuck.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Y'know? My mom is a prime example as to why this isn't entirely true. When I was younger, she had to work 3 different jobs. Sometimes all running back to back to back. Making at or just above minimum wage. Wasn't a damper on her morale? Yeah. Did she use it as an excuse to stay there? No. She wanted out. So, she put herself out there. Here we are 13 years later and has a skillet that will get her anywhere she wants to go. "A job is a job" is the most annoying thing I've ever heard when it comes to a career path. However, it's true. If you don't like where you're at, and feel you're worth more you have to PROVE IT. The wage doesn't instill the self doubt. It's not a barricade. I've seen it first hand. I started at retail making $9/hr.. Moved into the oilfield service 4 years later with no prior experience making a living wage doing LESS work than I ever did in retail. It's a mindset that is a horrid one to dive into, when you believe you're stuck.

I would agree with you, and in most cases, yes, that IS the way forward. But unfortunately, your experiences are not universal and are, in a way, blinding you as to the issue(s) at hand. The first of which is this; NO ONE should have to work three jobs just to scrape by. If you can't afford to pay a living wage in your area for a job, you can't afford to offer that job in the first place. The second that I really feel like you're overlooking, though, is that if a person is quite literally JUST scraping by (or in some cases, not even and are slowly collecting debt), it's not exactly feasible for them to take extra time searching for another job, especially if the only things in their area require an education (because at that point, you're not only expecting them to effectively work full time to survive, but also throw time and money at a higher education). The "just hit the pavement and start applying!" mentality worked when the minimum wage was enough to at least scrape by on, but I'm not convinced that most people could pull off what your mom did in current-day conditions, and most DEFINITELY can't do what you did unless it's specifically migrant work over the summer; you are in a very unique position of living in an area that offers a higher-than-minimum wage doing work that requires no previous experience.

 

[CallmeBerto]

@TotalInsanity4 sounds like someone who screwed up their life by not making good choices.

They could move back in with friends or family and have a game plan. Also if you are that poor the government will give you money for school. You got to be in it to win it.

 

[Kioku]

@TotalInsanity4 sounds like someone who screwed up their life by not making good choices.

They could move back in with friends or family and have a game plan. Also if you are that poor the government will give you money for school. You got to be in it to win it.

It's a twisted reality where you're wasting half your life away just to be able to live it. However, it's still reality. You want something in life you have to earn it. There are virtually an infinite amount of possibilities. People like to convince themselves they're in some imaginary hole due to "unfortunate circumstances". The truth is that they've lost sight of their value and just live content with mediocrity.

 

[CallmeBerto]

It's a twisted reality where you're wasting half your life away just to be able to live it. However, it's still reality. You want something in life you have to earn it. There are virtually an infinite amount of possibilities. People like to convince themselves they're in some imaginary hole due to "unfortunate circumstances". The truth is that they've lost sight of their value and just live content with mediocrity.

People like to blame other people for their failures in life. Either the jews, white privileged or the patriarchy. I mean I was born in section 8 housing so I have first hand experience with the poor. Yeah I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Made bad choices in their lives and they refuse to take responsibility for their own failures and work towards improving themselves.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

@TotalInsanity4 sounds like someone who screwed up their life by not making good choices.

They could move back in with friends or family and have a game plan. Also if you are that poor the government will give you money for school. You got to be in it to win it.

Currently the government will give you money for a lot of things, but those are programs that either are threatened with being terminated by a certain "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" party or are heavily gimped by restrictions that make it virtually impossible for a person to get out of them. Plus, not that it matters from an economic standpoint, but there is a heavy stigmatization against living with your family past a certain arbitrary age

Also, I think you're mistaking my take on the issue; in this case, it's not the fact that someone didn't go to college, as there are many reasons why a person would either chose not to or be unable to, it's that a lack of a college education is seen as a barrier to many jobs which don't inherently require one; office work, for example, should really only require a good work ethic and the ability to demonstrate that you're capable of handling whatever work it is that you'd need to be doing. There are many jobs that require a college education that really shouldn't, due to the fact that it's an arbitrary requirement to weed out potential employees, is negated by on-the-job training, or both.

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It's a twisted reality where you're wasting half your life away just to be able to live it. However, it's still reality.

That's what I'm saying, I guess, in the long run. I know that our takes on the issue are different, but they share a common theme. Mine just revolves around the fact that, well, nobody should be barred from doing the work they enjoy simply because either it pays shit or the job needed for experience pays shit

 

[Kioku]

Currently the government will give you money for a lot of things, but those are programs that either are threatened with being terminated by a certain "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" party or are heavily gimped by restrictions that make it virtually impossible for a person to get out of them. Plus, not that it matters from an economic standpoint, but there is a heavy stigmatization against living with your family past a certain arbitrary age

Also, I think you're mistaking my take on the issue; in this case, it's not the fact that someone didn't go to college, as there are many reasons why a person would either chose not to or be unable to, it's that a lack of a college education is seen as a barrier to many jobs which don't inherently require one; office work, for example, should really only require a good work ethic and the ability to demonstrate that you're capable of handling whatever work it is that you'd need to be doing. There are many jobs that require a college education that really shouldn't, due to the fact that it's an arbitrary requirement to weed out potential employees, is negated by on-the-job training, or both.

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That's what I'm saying, I guess, in the long run. I know that our takes on the issue are different, but they share a common theme. Mine just revolves around the fact that, well, nobody should be barred from doing the work they enjoy simply because either it pays shit or the job needed for experience pays shit

I like to believe that college degrees are just.... Framed paper... That say you can read a book..

Specialty jobs should all offer fair tests to see, first hand, what experience you may have. I know most higher end restaurants will have you prepare a meal off of their menu to see your skills.

 

[SG854]

It's also a job that requires a strong, able-bodied individual to do, unless you have expensive machinery that you're operating to do it for you. There are many people who don't have that option. Plus, you're comparing something that should reasonably be paid more to something extreme as a way of silencing the conversation. I know you might legitimately think that it's an equal comparison, but they're hardly things that you can compare. If you wanted to do a better comparison, you could use trucking; a job that's heavily stigmatized against as it requires no "skill" other than the ability to sit behind a wheel in air conditioning for hours on end (which, again, is something I'd consider a skill to be able to do both without falling asleep and while meeting a strict timetable, but I digress), but are paid very well because the ability to get a product from one location to another in a timely manor is seen as a necessary service.

Some ditch diggers get payed 13 hr some 15 hr. My friends was lucky to find one the payed 25. But all of those pay's are higher then minimum fast food wages.
Truck driving is one of the most dangerous profession. With high risk of death. Thats why they get payed more. Same with lumber jacks, prison guards, auto mechanics, steel worker, sewer maintenance, plumbing, fumigation. Notice a trend here? They all have horrible work conditions.

If you want a more equal comparison. Someone working in Emergence medicine makes more than someone working in Family medicine. Thats because there is a lot more risk in emergency medicine. A Surgeon makes more than a Gynecologist. Anesthesiologist makes more than a Psychiatrist. Short order cooks makes more than Waiters. Waiters have more likable conditions because you talk and interact with people. Short order cooks stares at garbage and grease all day. Who gets a thank you more often? The short order cook or a waitress? Jobs with less people contact pay more. Jobs that people less like pay more.

And wages have stagnated. People are earning today the same they earned in 1970. But counting for inflation are earning less. That is mostly due to automation. Its not that people are producing more then their grandparents, its that automation technology got better and producing more, and not people working that much harder then their grandparents.

Now women entering the work force should balance this out and be more then sufficient, since 2 paychecks compared to 1 in 1970. But expenses has gone up. People in 1970 earned less than people today but used half of their pay check for necessary expenses. People today earn more but use 3/4 of their pay check for expenses. Nowadays people are paying more for cars since now women work and they have to support their ability to drive to work. Pay for day care and child care which is an expense previous generations didn't have to deal with. Pay more for taxes because of how progressive tax system works on married couples both working. Paying more for mortgage since people are moving into bigger houses then what people use to live in in 1970.

People nowadays are spending less on food, appliances, and clothing than what people got in 1970. But the difference is that expenses that has gone up for things that are fixed big expenses. Car payments and taxes are fixed. Food and clothing you can adjust depending on your budget. If you make less on a pay check then you can buy less food and clothing. It doesn't mean stop eating completely. But there is a difference between eating steak one night and eating microwavable food.

 

[CallmeBerto]

@TotalInsanity4

Yeah the cut to those programs is BS due to the fact that money shouldn't be a barrier to education assuming you show that you can do it/have the willingness.

The whole stigma against living with your family is an issue but tell those people to fuck off and die. I mean if you need to do this to improve your life who cares?

Yeah most jobs don't need a college education but most times without it an employer won even look at your resume. There needs to be a huge culture change before that happends. What employers should do is offer training and then the employees are stuck working for them for X years and if they fail they have to pay back X amount.

 

[invaderyoyo]

You sound like a person that has never worked in fast food, if you think that it's a comfortable and hazard-free work environment. I'm not saying that ditch digging isn't, but you're presenting a glorified and idealized version of working at a fast food place, specifically kitchen work.


Again, not to say you're wrong per se, but ditch digging (and general contract construction work, which is what I feel like you're trying to get at) is seasonal work, and there are DEFINITELY a lot of people who apply over the summer to do it; people who are willing to stand on a roof and pound nails or sand on a highway and rotate a sign back and forth or drive a pilot car are a dime a dozen, so long as you pay them enough. The reason they're able to pay so much, though, is that their services are deemed essential to either the homeowners or governmental departments requesting them, so they can negotiate higher prices.

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If someone is underpaid for long enough, they're going to start doing work that's proportional to what the company values them at. The fact that you see it that way contributes to an ideal that allows a corporate entity to keep a "revolving door" model for low wage employees, rather than incentivising better work ethic with pay proportional to work done

Something I've noticed is that many people that manage to get ahead in life will never admit that chance played a role. Knowing the right person or being in the right place at the right time; nope, it's all their own doing.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Something I've noticed is that many people that manage to get ahead in life will never admit that chance played a role. Knowing the right person or being in the right place at the right time; nope, it's all their own doing.

There's a really good comic on this topic that I'll post later. If I don't, remind me

 

[Kioku]

Something I've noticed is that many people that manage to get ahead in life will never admit that chance played a role. Knowing the right person or being in the right place at the right time; nope, it's all their own doing.

Even then, you'd still have to prove your competency.

 

[CallmeBerto]

Even then, you'd still have to prove your competency.

100% just because you are lucky...if you provide no value then you will be dropped. There are many people willing to that their spot.